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But, no offence, that's just silly.

Chaos 'turned' fully half of the extant Primarchs, why would Commissars be somehow immune?

The space marine chaplain. I absolutely love their aesthetic and lore, but on the table top I've never found a reason to run them. I really hope they get the dark apostle treatment.

pm713 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Eh, I think it's entirely too obvious that there will be a renegade guard style force which will be replacing the Renegade and Heretics. Heck, you'll probably even get an actual codex.

With the Blackstone Fortress minis you already have:

-Traitor Guard
-Rogue Psykers
-Chaos Commissar
-Chaos Beastmen
-Chaos Bulgryn/Ogryn dude

If anything, Renegades and Heretic players should be excited. I've never seen a more obvious "you're about to get an army". But then...if I'm wrong, you at least have access to new models with your crap rules.

Isn't a Chaos Commissar really unfluffy? As Commissars are super loyal.

"The higher they rise the more catastrophal the fall. It's as if a dam bursts" Somewhere in a codex regarding traitor marines.
If marines can get disloyal a commisar can just aswell.

Honestly I'd expect a commissar to be more resistant than Marines seeing as they're basically Guard Chaplains. I would've guessed they'd all be trained as Chaos supporters from the start and be assigned to traitor guards later but there you go.

Yeah, the upbringing for those in the Schola Progenium seem to be specifically focused on being loyal to the Imperium and its ideals (particularly the Imperial Creed) as a whole, in contrast to most SM chapters who have their own distinct backgrounds and beliefs that is tied to their semi-autonomous nature. Not to say there isn't any hypno-indoctrination but the environments in which they are raised are quite different. The Commissar should be amongst the first to be killed if a regiment turns traitor, I would assume any chaos equivalents are created as a dark mirror of their counterparts like the Enforcers in the Siege of Vraks, rather than them willingly turning to Chaos. If they are turned, it seems like it would either be through mind control via psyker shenanigans or being possessed by a Daemonic entity. They're basically almost in the same league of the Sororitas.

Anrakyr the traveller. He is a necron infantry HQ character, who cant travel. He has no dynasty code, which means he cant be teleported onto the battlefield via monolith or night scythes, like other infantry characters can. He cant use the nephrekh stratagem to arrive on the battlefield on T2 or later as reinforcements, like any other nephrekh infantry can. He cant embark on a ghost ark (a necron transport), because only infantry characters with the matching dynasty code can. The only way he can go anywhere on the battlefield is with the deceivers grand illusion ability. Or foot slogging. Epic fail GW

 Excommunicatus wrote:
But, no offence, that's just silly.

Chaos 'turned' fully half of the extant Primarchs, why would Commissars be somehow immune?

Because Commissars are indoctrinated massively into the Imperial Cult and are in charge of loyalty and discipline.

The Traitor Primarchs were riddled with grudges against the Emperor, reasons to turn to Chaos and were way more likely to turn.

The Primarchs weren't particularly resistant to the temptation of Chaos, really it's surprising more of them didn't turn.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
But, no offence, that's just silly.

Chaos 'turned' fully half of the extant Primarchs, why would Commissars be somehow immune?

Well, for one thing Primarchs were never indoctrinated against the true dangers of the warp and their ignorance was used against them. Furthermore, many who joined the rebellion initially were for reasons beyond Chaos (Angron because he hated the Emps and hated Horus less, Mortarion because he resented the Emperor for kill-stealing his dad and what he saw as hypocrisy regarding psykers) but became corrupted over time, typically unwillingly like Angron and Mortarion. All of which had to do with their upbringing, which the Emperor had no control over, unlike Commissars who are raised to do their one job.

Also, unlike Commissars, who know their place in Imperial society, the Primarchs were living demigods of the fledgling empire, second only to the Emperor. When so many of them have large egos, wielding unimaginable power and influence alongside their own independent ideas of how things should be run, of course its easier to subvert them compared to people who are literally raised to do their duty. Notice that the Primarchs who didn't turn were largely ones who put duty and loyalty before pride and ambition.

pm713 wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
But, no offence, that's just silly.

Chaos 'turned' fully half of the extant Primarchs, why would Commissars be somehow immune?

Because Commissars are indoctrinated massively into the Imperial Cult and are in charge of loyalty and discipline.

The Traitor Primarchs were riddled with grudges against the Emperor, reasons to turn to Chaos and were way more likely to turn.

The Primarchs weren't particularly resistant to the temptation of Chaos, really it's surprising more of them didn't turn.

And, space marines get psycho indoctrinated and still Fall to Chaos, a pesky commisar is nothing against that.

Not Online!!! wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
But, no offence, that's just silly.

Chaos 'turned' fully half of the extant Primarchs, why would Commissars be somehow immune?

Because Commissars are indoctrinated massively into the Imperial Cult and are in charge of loyalty and discipline.

The Traitor Primarchs were riddled with grudges against the Emperor, reasons to turn to Chaos and were way more likely to turn.

The Primarchs weren't particularly resistant to the temptation of Chaos, really it's surprising more of them didn't turn.

And, space marines get psycho indoctrinated and still Fall to Chaos, a pesky commisar is nothing against that.

Again a Commissar is more. A marine can ask himself "I'm so much better than humans, why should I die for them?" A Space Marine can easily make their own fortune by just going it alone. Space Marines don't even believe the Emperor is more than a particularly strong human in most cases. Space Marines have more reason than most to turn not less so a Commissar turning is definitely weirder.

So, literal superhumans would let their status as such go to their head and thus are susceptible to corruption, but regular humies who are sent to a special school and told the fate of humanity lies in large part in their hands wouldn't and aren't?

Have you ever interacted with a person who went to a fee-paying school?

Any argument you can make as to why Astartes 'fall' applies tenfold to Commissars.

Obliterators, Heldrakes, Raptors. These were my solid VIPs for 5th and 7th edition. Now theyve been shelved and stored.

In my Death Guard collection, I would love to bring out some Blightlord and Deathshroud termies, but in nearly every list I write, those points would be better used on cheap chaff units. I have these models still sitting unassembled.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Obliterators, Heldrakes, Raptors. These were my solid VIPs for 5th and 7th edition. Now theyve been shelved and stored.

In my Death Guard collection, I would love to bring out some Blightlord and Deathshroud termies, but in nearly every list I write, those points would be better used on cheap chaff units. I have these models still sitting unassembled.

Raptors? You mean suicide squads right?

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So, literal superhumans would let their status as such go to their head and thus are susceptible to corruption, but regular humies who are sent to a special school and told the fate of humanity lies in large part in their hands wouldn't and aren't?

Have you ever interacted with a person who went to a fee-paying school?

Any argument you can make as to why Astartes 'fall' applies tenfold to Commissars.

I'm really don't buy any of that to be honest. Commissars are massively different to Astartes in purpose, training and origins.

They're still only human.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So, literal superhumans would let their status as such go to their head and thus are susceptible to corruption, but regular humies who are sent to a special school and told the fate of humanity lies in large part in their hands wouldn't and aren't?

Have you ever interacted with a person who went to a fee-paying school?

Any argument you can make as to why Astartes 'fall' applies tenfold to Commissars.

Er, no. You seem to misunderstand. Commissars are not told that they are super special snowflakes that carry the lineage of the Emperor/Primarchs via their geneseed, they know that they are merely another cog in the Imperial war machine, one whose role is to ensure that competency and loyalty to the Imperium is upheld above all else. As part of the Officio Prefectus, they are outside of the Astra Militarum, they are not there to wage war as commanders outside very specific circumstances (i.e. Commissar Gaunt and Yarrick) and more as watchdogs for corruption and complacency in the officer staff. Astartes often rule their own planet and sometimes entire fiefdoms, which means they have a significant measure of individuality and independence that Commissars do not have. This is often used against them when Astartes chapters turn traitor, ala Astral Claws, who seceded due to believing that Terra's lack of support and tithing was hindering them from their role as wardens as the Maelstrom and the entire Badab War was predicated on the sovereign rights of SM being infringed upon. Have you ever heard of a Commissar going rogue to lead a rebellion within a subset of the Schola Progenium? No? That's because they lack precisely this individuality of culture and values and independence, not to mention their own assets, to take the initiative to go rogue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
They're still only human.

Right, which is why I said the few instances where they would go traitor is if they've been mind-controlled or been possessed by a daemonic entity. Doing it of their own volition? Unlikely to the point of it being practically unheard of.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So, literal superhumans would let their status as such go to their head and thus are susceptible to corruption, but regular humies who are sent to a special school and told the fate of humanity lies in large part in their hands wouldn't and aren't?

Have you ever interacted with a person who went to a fee-paying school?

Any argument you can make as to why Astartes 'fall' applies tenfold to Commissars.

Er, no. You seem to misunderstand. Commissars are not told that they are super special snowflakes that carry the lineage of the Emperor/Primarchs via their geneseed, they know that they are merely another cog in the Imperial war machine, one whose role is to ensure that competency and loyalty to the Imperium is upheld above all else. As part of the Officio Prefectus, they are outside of the Astra Militarum, they are not there to wage war as commanders outside very specific circumstances (i.e. Commissar Gaunt and Yarrick) and more as watchdogs for corruption and complacency in the officer staff. Astartes often rule their own planet and sometimes entire fiefdoms, which means they have a significant measure of individuality and independence that Commissars do not have. This is often used against them when Astartes chapters turn traitor, ala Astral Claws, who seceded due to believing that Terra's lack of support and tithing was hindering them from their role as wardens as the Maelstrom and the entire Badab War was predicated on the sovereign rights of SM being infringed upon. Have you ever heard of a Commissar going rogue to lead a rebellion within a subset of the Schola Progenium? No? That's because they lack precisely this individuality of culture and values and independence, not to mention their own assets, to take the initiative to go rogue.

You'd be right if it were not for people like sabathiel? The slaaneshy warrior nun?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So, literal superhumans would let their status as such go to their head and thus are susceptible to corruption, but regular humies who are sent to a special school and told the fate of humanity lies in large part in their hands wouldn't and aren't?

Have you ever interacted with a person who went to a fee-paying school?

Any argument you can make as to why Astartes 'fall' applies tenfold to Commissars.

Er, no. You seem to misunderstand. Commissars are not told that they are super special snowflakes that carry the lineage of the Emperor/Primarchs via their geneseed, they know that they are merely another cog in the Imperial war machine, one whose role is to ensure that competency and loyalty to the Imperium is upheld above all else. As part of the Officio Prefectus, they are outside of the Astra Militarum, they are not there to wage war as commanders outside very specific circumstances (i.e. Commissar Gaunt and Yarrick) and more as watchdogs for corruption and complacency in the officer staff. Astartes often rule their own planet and sometimes entire fiefdoms, which means they have a significant measure of individuality and independence that Commissars do not have. This is often used against them when Astartes chapters turn traitor, ala Astral Claws, who seceded due to believing that Terra's lack of support and tithing was hindering them from their roitsle as wardens as the Maelstrom and the entire Badab War was predicated on the sovereign rights of SM being infringed upon. Have you ever heard of a Commissar going rogue to lead a rebellion within a subset of the Schola Progenium? No? That's because they lack precisely this individuality of culture and values and independence, not to mention their own assets, to take the initiative to go rogue.

You'd be right if it were not for people like sabathiel? The slaaneshy warrior nun?

I kind of feel like that proves my point though, she's a very, very specific anomaly and is acknowledged as the only SoB that has WILLINGLY turned traitor. The fact that for 10,000 years there has been many SM who have willingly defected to Chaos, but only one SoB has given in is a very good demonstration of how mere mortals with enough faith in the Emperor can remain loyal. Since Commissar upbringings are very similar to that of SoB since they come from the same institution, to have a generic Chaos Commissar undermines that portrayal altogether. Unless they present the backstory for him as being mind-controlled or possessed/misled in some way, it goes against the writing they've established so far.

 Grimskul wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So, literal superhumans would let their status as such go to their head and thus are susceptible to corruption, but regular humies who are sent to a special school and told the fate of humanity lies in large part in their hands wouldn't and aren't?

Have you ever interacted with a person who went to a fee-paying school?

Any argument you can make as to why Astartes 'fall' applies tenfold to Commissars.

Er, no. You seem to misunderstand. Commissars are not told that they are super special snowflakes that carry the lineage of the Emperor/Primarchs via their geneseed, they know that they are merely another cog in the Imperial war machine, one whose role is to ensure that competency and loyalty to the Imperium is upheld above all else. As part of the Officio Prefectus, they are outside of the Astra Militarum, they are not there to wage war as commanders outside very specific circumstances (i.e. Commissar Gaunt and Yarrick) and more as watchdogs for corruption and complacency in the officer staff. Astartes often rule their own planet and sometimes entire fiefdoms, which means they have a significant measure of individuality and independence that Commissars do not have. This is often used against them when Astartes chapters turn traitor, ala Astral Claws, who seceded due to believing that Terra's lack of support and tithing was hindering them from their roitsle as wardens as the Maelstrom and the entire Badab War was predicated on the sovereign rights of SM being infringed upon. Have you ever heard of a Commissar going rogue to lead a rebellion within a subset of the Schola Progenium? No? That's because they lack precisely this individuality of culture and values and independence, not to mention their own assets, to take the initiative to go rogue.

You'd be right if it were not for people like sabathiel? The slaaneshy warrior nun?

I kind of feel like that proves my point though, she's a very, very specific anomaly and is acknowledged as the only SoB that has WILLINGLY turned traitor. The fact that for 10,000 years there has been many SM who have willingly defected to Chaos, but only one SoB has given in is a very good demonstration of how mere mortals with enough faith in the Emperor can remain loyal. Since Commissar upbringings are very similar to that of SoB since they come from the same institution, to have a generic Chaos Commissar undermines that portrayal altogether. Unless they present the backstory for him as being mind-controlled or possessed/misled in some way, it goes against the writing they've established so far.

Except that the warrior nuns didn't exist for 10'000 years.

Er, no. You seem to misunderstand. Commissars are not told that they are super special snowflakes that carry the lineage of the Emperor/Primarchs via their geneseed, they know that they are merely another cog in the Imperial war machine, one whose role is to ensure that competency and loyalty to the Imperium is upheld above all else. As part of the Officio Prefectus, they are outside of the Astra Militarum, they are not there to wage war as commanders outside very specific circumstances (i.e. Commissar Gaunt and Yarrick) and more as watchdogs for corruption and complacency in the officer staff. Astartes often rule their own planet and sometimes entire fiefdoms, which means they have a significant measure of individuality and independence that Commissars do not have. This is often used against them when Astartes chapters turn traitor, ala Astral Claws, who seceded due to believing that Terra's lack of support and tithing was hindering them from their role as wardens as the Maelstrom and the entire Badab War was predicated on the sovereign rights of SM being infringed upon. Have you ever heard of a Commissar going rogue to lead a rebellion within a subset of the Schola Progenium? No? That's because they lack precisely this individuality of culture and values and independence, not to mention their own assets, to take the initiative to go rogue.

To clear up the example, the Commissar would not be raising a rebellion against the Schola Progenium—this is just the school system. They probably wouldn’t be raising a rebellion against the Schola Prefectus, either. The closest thing would be a Cadet Commissar somehow trying hands at a rebellion of his first regiment.

Right, which is why I said the few instances where they would go traitor is if they've been mind-controlled or been possessed by a daemonic entity. Doing it of their own volition? Unlikely to the point of it being practically unheard of.

This would pretty much be it. A Commissar would have to be forcefully turned in the same fashion that the guardsmen in one of the Eisenhorn books were (demonic branding of sorts), demonic possession, or overexposure to chaos—chaos taint has even turned Imperial Knights through the presence of enough tainted gore.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So, literal superhumans would let their status as such go to their head and thus are susceptible to corruption, but regular humies who are sent to a special school and told the fate of humanity lies in large part in their hands wouldn't and aren't?

Have you ever interacted with a person who went to a fee-paying school?

Any argument you can make as to why Astartes 'fall' applies tenfold to Commissars.

Er, no. You seem to misunderstand. Commissars are not told that they are super special snowflakes that carry the lineage of the Emperor/Primarchs via their geneseed, they know that they are merely another cog in the Imperial war machine, one whose role is to ensure that competency and loyalty to the Imperium is upheld above all else. As part of the Officio Prefectus, they are outside of the Astra Militarum, they are not there to wage war as commanders outside very specific circumstances (i.e. Commissar Gaunt and Yarrick) and more as watchdogs for corruption and complacency in the officer staff. Astartes often rule their own planet and sometimes entire fiefdoms, which means they have a significant measure of individuality and independence that Commissars do not have. This is often used against them when Astartes chapters turn traitor, ala Astral Claws, who seceded due to believing that Terra's lack of support and tithing was hindering them from their roitsle as wardens as the Maelstrom and the entire Badab War was predicated on the sovereign rights of SM being infringed upon. Have you ever heard of a Commissar going rogue to lead a rebellion within a subset of the Schola Progenium? No? That's because they lack precisely this individuality of culture and values and independence, not to mention their own assets, to take the initiative to go rogue.

You'd be right if it were not for people like sabathiel? The slaaneshy warrior nun?

I kind of feel like that proves my point though, she's a very, very specific anomaly and is acknowledged as the only SoB that has WILLINGLY turned traitor. The fact that for 10,000 years there has been many SM who have willingly defected to Chaos, but only one SoB has given in is a very good demonstration of how mere mortals with enough faith in the Emperor can remain loyal. Since Commissar upbringings are very similar to that of SoB since they come from the same institution, to have a generic Chaos Commissar undermines that portrayal altogether. Unless they present the backstory for him as being mind-controlled or possessed/misled in some way, it goes against the writing they've established so far.

Except that the warrior nuns didn't exist for 10'000 years.

Two known traitors in 5'000 years is still way better. Even if we skip the Heresy there have been far FAR more than 4 Traitor Marines.

Ultimately half the original Space Marines turned traitor, over 50 full chapters post-heresy have, and innumerable rogue companies, squads, and individuals have turned likewise.

Any given Space Marine one happens to come across basically has a coinflip chance of being a Heretic.

Say what one will of mortal human troops, the Astartes appear to turn at startlingly high rates, rates that do not appear to match that of normal human troops

Can we PLEASE take the "could x turn traitor?" discussion to another thread? Pretty please? Before the mods have to step in and lock the thread.

Back on topic, I might actually mention the Imperial Knights that aren't Gallants or Crusaders or the Dominus ones. I'm talking about the Paladin, Errant, and Warden. None of these see play, and it's fairly obvious to most why that is. Really these three classes need some kind of bonus or something to make them worth taking instead of one of the specialized classes.

Lets see....I play competitive orkz so this might take a bit.

Killa Kanz: overpriced, completely lacking any meaningful dakka and suck in CC

DeffDreadz: Over priced, no dakka worth taking, are alright in CC but you have to 1: survive to get their and 2: pay through the nose for those handful of attacks.

Burnaboyz: At this point I don't know what to do with them. Over priced, basically worthless. If you can get them into range you are either in a vehicle or the luckiest SOB in existence.

Trukkz: Over priced, extremely fragile and once they drop off their cargo, which is rare as it is, they serve no purpose except to eat overwatch.

Nobz: Anything a nob can do a Boy can do for cheaper. In a unit by themselves they are a priority target due to their price and their relatively good CC abilities.

Warbikers: Over priced and under powered. You NEVER want them in CC because they are just boyz at 3x the price and their dakka, while impressive for 21pts is still rather lackluster all things considered. Worst of all, they are 4+ saves so Over charging Plasma instant kills them and allows for no saving throw. Thank god plasma isn't popular....

Deff Koptas: All the same problems as Warbikers exacerbated by being even more expensive.

All the new Buggies: Over priced and lacking a true purpose

Stompa: about 40-50% over priced, 3 times the cost of a knight while only being better then 1.

Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.

I'll leave it there for now.

pm713 wrote:

Honestly I'd expect a commissar to be more resistant than Marines seeing as they're basically Guard Chaplains. I would've guessed they'd all be trained as Chaos supporters from the start and be assigned to traitor guards later but there you go.

Dark Apostle from the Word Bearers says What?

Necron Monolith - even after CA 2018 it's still about 100 pts too expensive. 3+ save, no invul, no quantum shielding, crap firepower, slow, units can't disembark the turn it arrives, so it's a transport you can't get out of until turn 3.

Tomb Spyders - cool models, but poor rules and no focus in its purpose. It fixes stuff (D3), it builds scarabs (but hurts itself) and it can deny psykers (with an upgrade). Also the gun it can take is hilariously overpriced, 20 pts for a twin multilaser lol

The Eldar Falcon Grav Tank. To me they are the iconic Eldar model and they don't see play because of an overcrowded heavy support slot and being outclassed by Wave Serpents.

Wraithknights, Howling Banshees, Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, the list goes on for Eldar units that are either in a weird spot or straight up bad.

Literally half of the Imperial Guard vehicle range, including Forge World.

FW gave us many beautiful kits, like the Macharius, Avenger, Marauder, Medusa, Salamander, Griffon, Valdor, Taurosii and more, but FW being FW, the rules are either bad or totally OP. For the Guard vehicles, it's the former. The fact the models are very pricey is overlooked. If they were good (or at least reasonably decent) rule-wise too, people would buy them more. I personally bought the Macharius only because it's the sexiest tank model GW ever produced.

Also, evergreen. THE VANQUISHER TANK!

How many people don't use units because they are just slightly below the optimal line? This seems to me to be extremely prevalent. I understand that if a unit is just awful, it won't get used, but there are a lot of units listed that can be viable and may synergize in a specific list even though they may sit slightly below the optimal line. I do feel people should play more with these units and turn off the "internet says they're bad" waves for awhile.

Necrons in general. Just no one in my area likes them I guess.

Dreadnaughts, the original ones, not the roided out Fisto-Roboto ones we see now. I love the look of the old ones.

Whirlwinds, Terminators, and Assault Marines.

Deathwing anything

I wish GW would make Grey Knight termintors valid to take. I don't think many people use them. Strikes get more shots and more models for more or less the same points, paladins give 3W and better stats and interceptors are faster strikes that cost less too. Considering how iconic termintors are suppose to be for Grey Knights, they are a bit like tacticals, if tacticals were 40pts each.