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Karol wrote:
I wish GW would make Grey Knight termintors valid to take. I don't think many people use them. Strikes get more shots and more models for more or less the same points, paladins give 3W and better stats and interceptors are faster strikes that cost less too. Considering how iconic termintors are suppose to be for Grey Knights, they are a bit like tacticals, if tacticals were 40pts each.

Seconded. That being said, I think if they simply made the psybolt ammo a DW-esque ammo selection, they would instantly begin appearing in lists. A Psychic terminator squad with powerful shooting and 3w a pop? Somewhere between a stock terminator and a custodes.

SemperMortis wrote:
Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.

Wait; why does a unit with a 36" gun need to move at all, much less Advance?

(Also, it says something about the state Marines are in when Orks get a Heavy Bolter with the Assault advantage instead of the Heavy disadvantage for half the price and consider that a poor weapon. Marines would hit someone with a sock full of butter to get a gun that good for five points.)

The Newman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.

Wait; why does a unit with a 36" gun need to move at all, much less Advance?

(Also, it says something about the state Marines are in when Orks get a Heavy Bolter with the Assault advantage instead of the Heavy disadvantage for half the price and consider that a poor weapon. Marines would hit someone with a sock full of butter to get a gun that good for five points.)

Marines hit twice as often as Orks do baseline though. That makes a big difference.

 Stux wrote:

The Newman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.

Wait; why does a unit with a 36" gun need to move at all, much less Advance?

(Also, it says something about the state Marines are in when Orks get a Heavy Bolter with the Assault advantage instead of the Heavy disadvantage for half the price and consider that a poor weapon. Marines would hit someone with a sock full of butter to get a gun that good for five points.)

Marines hit twice as often as Orks do baseline though. That makes a big difference.

Yeah, and even at the full 10 points an S5 36" Assault 3 would still be worlds better than either the Heavy Bolter or the Assault Bolter (S5 18" Assault 3 for 10 points.)

Or a psycannon. I wish a psycanon was 5pts.

There's few things that make it not that great.

1) you only get 3 per Boy Mob, maximum (1 per 10 models). So, sure, he ain't got to move. But his 9 buddies *do*. And they, most likely, will want to Advance as well. If you're Da Jumping the Mob, the extra 18" isn't gonna help you anyway.
2) you just spent 5 pts to get 0.4 extra hits per shooting phase, while the increase in S can make a slightly higher difference (depending on the target, against anything between 5 and 7T, they'll wound the same). I specifically don't mention the extra 18", because even with maximum Big Shootaz in your Mob, you're only getting 9 S5 AP- D1 shots at BS 5+. That's 3 hits, 2 Wounds against T4, and approximately 1.7 damage against 6+ Saves. Congratulations, you just spent 15 pts to take out less than 2 Boyz per turn. Alternatively, you can spend those 15 pts on 2 more Boyz, and you'll actually do about the same damage (9 shots at S5 vs 10 shots at S4).
3) Boyz are squishy. A good list will be able to wipe a full Boy Mob per turn with relative ease. Marines are far less squishy.

If you want to throw a wrench into that comparisson compare to Tyranid Warriors with Deathspitters. BS4 , Assault Heavy Bolter with 24" range, and every model in the unit can get one. 5 points per. Base model is more expensive, though with a Prime you boost them to BS 3+.

But in general, comparing weapons prices across armies isn't very helpful, as the context of a choice within an army is crucial to the value of a weapon.

Overall Heavy Bolters suffer from another problem, which is that the unit purchasing them tends to have a bunch of other options. For a Tac Squad, they have 6 Heavy weapon options to go in that slot, and it's a valuable slot. If youre buying a 5- man squad, it's competing against all the special weapons, too. The Heavy Bolter doesn't really compete well against the other options.

"Less fragile" isn't relevant in context. Sure Marines are harder to kill than Ork Boys, but it's the difference between paper and damp paper, and they're significantly more expensive.

A Heavy Bolter on a Tac squad isn't adding much either when you get down to it.

Honestly, I don't know enough about Marines to refute you, so I'll just reiterate Insectum's point: comparing across armies never really goes well. For example, and Ork Power Fist Equivalent (the Power Klaw) costs 13 pts. I'm probably not current on Marine prices, but last I checked a Power Fist was 9 pts for you guys.

The Newman wrote:

A Heavy Bolter on a Tac squad isn't adding much either when you get down to it.

Especially with the new Bolter Discipline. Vs. GEQ a Heavy Bolter winds up being one additional shot for 10 points, while giving the sarge a Storm Bolter is 2 additional shots for 2 points. Minor difference in AP and range.

Or for the 10(?) points you upgrade the squad to Intercessors. I dont know the price difference as I've never run Primaris, but the points difference cant be that big.

 Insectum7 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

A Heavy Bolter on a Tac squad isn't adding much either when you get down to it.

Especially with the new Bolter Discipline. Vs. GEQ a Heavy Bolter winds up being one additional shot for 10 points, while giving the sarge a Storm Bolter is 2 additional shots for 2 points. Minor difference in AP and range.

Or for the 10(?) points you upgrade the squad to Intercessors. I dont know the price difference as I've never run Primaris, but the points difference cant be that big.

Base points for Intercessors is 85 for the min 5-man squad. Tacs are 65 with no upgrades, so it's 20 points. In practice it's closer though, because why even field Tacs if you're not going to take a heavy or special on the squad?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
Honestly, I don't know enough about Marines to refute you, so I'll just reiterate Insectum's point: comparing across armies never really goes well. For example, and Ork Power Fist Equivalent (the Power Klaw) costs 13 pts. I'm probably not current on Marine prices, but last I checked a Power Fist was 9 pts for you guys.

And a Nob has what, 4 attacks? A Marine sergeant only has 2.

Although that does point up the oddness of set costs for weapons over a whole faction. A Power Fist costs the same on a tac serg with 2 attacks, a intercessor serg with 3, and (iirc) a Primaris Captain with 5.

A Nob has 3 attacks, but that kinda just makes my point. GW has a habit of pricing the same weapon differently based on how well the Faction can use it. We got cheaper ranged weapons, you got cheaper CC weapons.

The Newman wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

A Heavy Bolter on a Tac squad isn't adding much either when you get down to it.

Especially with the new Bolter Discipline. Vs. GEQ a Heavy Bolter winds up being one additional shot for 10 points, while giving the sarge a Storm Bolter is 2 additional shots for 2 points. Minor difference in AP and range.

Or for the 10(?) points you upgrade the squad to Intercessors. I dont know the price difference as I've never run Primaris, but the points difference cant be that big.

Base points for Intercessors is 85 for the min 5-man squad. Tacs are 65 with no upgrades, so it's 20 points. In practice it's closer though, because why even field Tacs if you're not going to take a heavy or special on the squad?

Hmm, that's more than I thought. When you can get a Las Tac for 90, double Plas for 87 or a Plasma Cannon for 81 the Intercessos are less interesting unless you're looking for resilience against small arms.

Speaking for the Eldar:

Swooping hawks take the top spot followed by Striking Scorpions, Fire Dragons, and Falcons.

Hawks... Awesome models and concept - Compared to IG lasgunners are laughable... their MW output is very gimmicky and does nothing really...

Scorpions Amazing models - should really have the infiltrate rule as well as DS to give them the options maybe another attack on the charge wouldn't hurt..

Fire Dragons - really cool models but are just... glorified storm guardians. I would argue a storm guardian unit with 2 fusion is actually better because you can give them celestial shield and discipline of black guardians and they provide CP...

Falcons are just so much worse serpents..

To be honest most of the codex is solid. However, we suffer as we are way too overpriced because interaction with ynnari in the past. They are gone as we knew them but the point hikes remained.. The good units we have are just so much more point efficient and betetr youre gimping yourself not taking them.(looking at you crimson hunters/hemlocks)

Honerable mention - Autarch with wings... Why take autarch with wings where the bike is only like 10 points more and the foot autarch can be given falochus wing relic..

I would love to bring storm talons. I know that is controversial but imao the model is gorgeous. The futuristic attack hover-copter is kinda unique in the game.

Also the lack of a viable cheap ground attack flier makes a SM air wing detachment not viable. The storm raven is too expensive to bring 3 and the stormhawk is quite decent when shooting units with the fly keyword but meh otherwise, is kinda is situational enough to not be able to justify to bring 2 or more.

Unfortunately either they are far over-costed or the datasheet needs to be tweak to make it worth. Internal balance wise and external balance wise both are a brainac no go.

At the end of the day the fact that the stormtalon is a no go makes unviable a whole army detachment chart in all the SM codexes that they don't have specific fliers (SW, DW and DA)

psipso wrote:
I would love to bring storm talons. I know that is controversial but imao the model is gorgeous. The futuristic attack hover-copter is kinda unique in the game.

Also the lack of a viable cheap ground attack flier makes a SM air wing detachment not viable. The storm raven is too expensive to bring 3 and the stormhawk is quite decent when shooting units with the fly keyword but meh otherwise, is kinda is situational enough to not be able to justify to bring 2 or more.

Unfortunately either they are far over-costed or the datasheet needs to be tweak to make it worth. Internal balance wise and external balance wise both are a brainac no go.

At the end of the day the fact that the stormtalon is a no go makes unviable a whole army detachment chart in all the SM codexes that they don't have specific fliers (SW, DW and DA)

The Storm Talon is a pretty model, but personally I like the Storm Raven better. If your group prefers smaller games there's the option to throw a Vanguard detachment (Captain, two 5-man vet squads, and a dread) in a Storm Raven with a Storm Talon in support for just under 1000 points. It looks awesome, it's amazingly thematic, it's only two drops so you'll usually get the bonus to the all-important "who goes first" roll, and it's terrible on the table.

I really wish I could play that list and not feel like I'd deliberately tazered myself in the bollox.

Killa kans.

My entire Corsairs list!

For Necrons, Canoptek Spyders. They're slow, fragile, and while they have some decent utility they pay through the nose for it. D3 damage on the claws are nice, but they barely ever make it into melee as is, and the low number of attacks and weapon skill means they perform about as well as a Veteran Sergeant with a powerfist.

Tyranid Warriors

At first glance for their points they seem ok almost good but they are such generalists they don't shine at anything. They are only really good if you don't have the other things that are better and that's sad.

Warriors are a troop that provides synapse and have fairly baseline shooting and slightly above average melee for min 20ppm. With 3 wounds and a 4+ sv you would think they were fairly resilent but they fall into an unfortunate slot of being weak to all guns. High ROF low str guns and high Str high damage guns it dosent mattrer everything works well/is efficent against them. With their 4+ sv they fail more than pass. As for synapse most of our HQ's have it and are protected as characters and are more efficent.
for that matter The Warrior Prime HQ (which is our cheapest HQ choice) has synapse which is rudendent as he wants to be near warriors who already have it.

As for better units as troops:

Genestealers are wayy faster and much more killy in melee for less.

Rippers are super cheap troops and can DS and are also very eazy to hide from LOS

Termigaunts with Divs are much more efficent at shooting point for point and again are also troops.

Even Hormagaunts are faster and can swarm with 6" pile in and trap enemies.

All of which need synapse but our HQ's cover that more efficently.

Nerothropes are characters and psykers as well as synapse and have a 3++ so as long as there is chaff you will almost never loose synapse.

Malanthropes give out our handy -1 to hit shroud as well as synapse and are also characters.

For elite shooting/Firepower

For similar pts a unit of 6 hive guard vs 9 Warriors not only out shoots/damages nearly any target but can do it from behind LOS blocking protecting it from most retaliation.

Our big gun bugs again outshoot most targets for similar price points.

This all aside there are some builds that can work for Warriors but they won't likely win anything competitive.

I see only 2 solutions and the first (most likely) is a pts cost decrease. This would make them more efficent but is a very slippery slope as even a 2point reduction could make them too good in certin situations and suddenly they are in the same bracket as many space marines with dbl the wounds and the marine players would cry.

The second solution is to change them functionally some way to make them "super" in a limited way.

I think that the old index shrikes should be given a nod by adding a wing option to all "warrior" types (inc Prime) for 5ppm giving them a 8" move and the fly KW. Also I'd like to remove synapse from them and insted give them the Psychic resonator ability from the Sporocyst. This would allow you to reduce their base pts by 2-3 without them being too OP.

 Elbows wrote:
Eh, I think it's entirely too obvious that there will be a renegade guard style force which will be replacing the Renegade and Heretics. Heck, you'll probably even get an actual codex.

I'm sure they'll celebrate when said codex actually materialises.

Assault marines and marine vehicles.

Timeshadow wrote:
Tyranid Warriors

At first glance for their points they seem ok almost good but they are such generalists they don't shine at anything. They are only really good if you don't have the other things that are better and that's sad.

Warriors are a troop that provides synapse and have fairly baseline shooting and slightly above average melee for min 20ppm. With 3 wounds and a 4+ sv you would think they were fairly resilent but they fall into an unfortunate slot of being weak to all guns. High ROF low str guns and high Str high damage guns it dosent mattrer everything works well/is efficent against them. With their 4+ sv they fail more than pass. As for synapse most of our HQ's have it and are protected as characters and are more efficent.
for that matter The Warrior Prime HQ (which is our cheapest HQ choice) has synapse which is rudendent as he wants to be near warriors who already have it.

As for better units as troops:

Genestealers are wayy faster and much more killy in melee for less.

Rippers are super cheap troops and can DS and are also very eazy to hide from LOS

Termigaunts with Divs are much more efficent at shooting point for point and again are also troops.

Even Hormagaunts are faster and can swarm with 6" pile in and trap enemies.

All of which need synapse but our HQ's cover that more efficently.

Nerothropes are characters and psykers as well as synapse and have a 3++ so as long as there is chaff you will almost never loose synapse.

Malanthropes give out our handy -1 to hit shroud as well as synapse and are also characters.

For elite shooting/Firepower

For similar pts a unit of 6 hive guard vs 9 Warriors not only out shoots/damages nearly any target but can do it from behind LOS blocking protecting it from most retaliation.

Our big gun bugs again outshoot most targets for similar price points.

This all aside there are some builds that can work for Warriors but they won't likely win anything competitive.

I see only 2 solutions and the first (most likely) is a pts cost decrease. This would make them more efficent but is a very slippery slope as even a 2point reduction could make them too good in certin situations and suddenly they are in the same bracket as many space marines with dbl the wounds and the marine players would cry.

The second solution is to change them functionally some way to make them "super" in a limited way.

I think that the old index shrikes should be given a nod by adding a wing option to all "warrior" types (inc Prime) for 5ppm giving them a 8" move and the fly KW. Also I'd like to remove synapse from them and insted give them the Psychic resonator ability from the Sporocyst. This would allow you to reduce their base pts by 2-3 without them being too OP.

Man im sorry to hear warriors are that bad. Reason i never see them in bat reps i guess. One of my fav kits. Are spine fists a thing still? Cant remember last time i saw anything other than stealers on the board. Stealers were always good even back in my day but used to be more expensive and no invuln.

I love Tyranid Warriors, I often play a Nid army that's like 90% Warriors. I take at least one Prime, and Gun up the Warriors with Deathspitters and Venom Cannons, and make them Jorm for the 3+ save. I started the army a bit as a joke, but it's been surprisingly effective.

The Bonesword build on them is really fun, too. With Prime around, they each have 4 attacks hitting on 2+ with a -2 save mod.

I mean it's not a great army, and it's a heavy skew list, but it's been a blast.

Sicarian Ruststalkers
After CA they are cheap for 14 points and still useless.

They lost movement, their charge bonus, LD was once higher than SM and is now on guard level, 5+++ gone, no grenades, no increased lethality after one turn of combat.

Weapons are supposed to sync to your armor and cut it like butter which had AP2 and auto wounding on 2 if I remember correctly after one turn, first turn only on 6+.

Now they have AP 0 and deal a MW on 6, but Multidamage is now the norm so they die as easily as a 7points ranger.

Half the Necron codex.. Some other stuff that hasn't been mentioned:

Praetorians - give them a way to have Dynasty benefits. Perhaps universal Dynasty KW, or benefit from your detachment and let them be universally targetable for dynasty abilities. And slice their points a few more notches.

Flayed Ones - give them back their 4th attack and make them troops.

Nightscythe - give them QS or an invul. Let them pick up units on the battlefield like a transport.

Obelisk - Just give it anything to make it worthwhile.

Tomb stalker/sentinel - make them more survivable

Canoptek Acanthrites - less of a glass cannon. An invul perhaps? Make their meltas S8 or +1 to wound so they at least have the cannon in "glass cannon"

Anrakyr the Traveller - Make him transportable the usual Necron ways.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I love Tyranid Warriors, I often play a Nid army that's like 90% Warriors. I take at least one Prime, and Gun up the Warriors with Deathspitters and Venom Cannons, and make them Jorm for the 3+ save. I started the army a bit as a joke, but it's been surprisingly effective.

The Bonesword build on them is really fun, too. With Prime around, they each have 4 attacks hitting on 2+ with a -2 save mod.

I mean it's not a great army, and it's a heavy skew list, but it's been a blast.

owwwwhhh dont say awesome stuff like that. My inner child wants to get a whole nid army now!

 Argive wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I love Tyranid Warriors, I often play a Nid army that's like 90% Warriors. I take at least one Prime, and Gun up the Warriors with Deathspitters and Venom Cannons, and make them Jorm for the 3+ save. I started the army a bit as a joke, but it's been surprisingly effective.

The Bonesword build on them is really fun, too. With Prime around, they each have 4 attacks hitting on 2+ with a -2 save mod.

I mean it's not a great army, and it's a heavy skew list, but it's been a blast.

owwwwhhh dont say awesome stuff like that. My inner child wants to get a whole nid army now!

Haha, it is awesome. But I can't recommend it with a clear conscience. It was pretty expensive, and you never know what will happen to the unit in the future. Skew builds are almost never a good investment from a gaimg perspective.

That said, every time I field it I get a big, stupid grin on my face though.

pm713 wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
But, no offence, that's just silly.

Chaos 'turned' fully half of the extant Primarchs, why would Commissars be somehow immune?

Because Commissars are indoctrinated massively into the Imperial Cult and are in charge of loyalty and discipline.

The Traitor Primarchs were riddled with grudges against the Emperor, reasons to turn to Chaos and were way more likely to turn.

The Primarchs weren't particularly resistant to the temptation of Chaos, really it's surprising more of them didn't turn.

Bullocks on the whole Commissars not being able to fall tripe (not directed at you persay, quoted poster). Everything and everyone can turn. Some just need more time in the oven than others.

As for units.

Warp Talons.
Raptors (outside of nightlords).
Terminators (big surprise).
Mutilators.
Hel Turkey (from champ to chump in one edition).
HelBrutes (FW ones are so much better) from the codex.
Bike Squads.

The Newman wrote:

 Stux wrote:

The Newman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.

Wait; why does a unit with a 36" gun need to move at all, much less Advance?

(Also, it says something about the state Marines are in when Orks get a Heavy Bolter with the Assault advantage instead of the Heavy disadvantage for half the price and consider that a poor weapon. Marines would hit someone with a sock full of butter to get a gun that good for five points.)

Marines hit twice as often as Orks do baseline though. That makes a big difference.

Yeah, and even at the full 10 points an S5 36" Assault 3 would still be worlds better than either the Heavy Bolter or the Assault Bolter (S5 18" Assault 3 for 10 points.)

Why does a 36' gun need to move? specifically advance? Because the other 9 boyz in his mob have either 12' or 18' guns and only move 5' which means at max they have a threat range of 23 which means they will be advancing to close the distance...especially since as a rule they are better in assault then in shooting. A SM with a Heavy Bolter is 13pts for a model and 10 for the gun so 23, for 24pts an Ork player can take 2 Big shoota boyz (In a mob of 20) The 2 Big shoota boyz put out 6 shots and about 2.3 hits a turn with Dakkax3 this results in 1.55ish wounds and against a marine that is .51sh Damage against a SM. The Tac Marine with a heavy bolter fires 3 shots for 2 hits on average (not taking any chapter tactics into account at all) which results in about 1.33ish wounds which ends up with 1.33 damage because -1AP means no armor save Vs Heavy Bolters. Congrats a single Marine with a Heavy botler on average does almost triple the damage 2 Orkz with big shootas can do in return, for roughly the same price.

So why do they need a major buff? because they suck and have no purpose. Either that or let me take as many Heavy weapons as I want per boyz squad and give them a slight buff.

Let me put it another way. A Big Shoota boy costs 12pts currently, a Loota is 17pts. A loota has 12' more range, D3 shots instead of 3, S7, -1 AP and 2 damage. so for 5pts more they gain more range, a lot more strength, more AP and twice as much damage.

SemperMortis wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 Stux wrote:

The Newman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Big Shoota Boyz: over priced. 5pts for upgrading from 2 shots at S4 18' range to 3 shots at S5 and 36 range. Keep in mind BS5+ and if those boyz want to do anything will have to be advancing turn 1 no matter what which means USELESS. Make it Assault 6 and you got a deal, but at Assault 3 its a nonstarter.

Wait; why does a unit with a 36" gun need to move at all, much less Advance?

(Also, it says something about the state Marines are in when Orks get a Heavy Bolter with the Assault advantage instead of the Heavy disadvantage for half the price and consider that a poor weapon. Marines would hit someone with a sock full of butter to get a gun that good for five points.)

Marines hit twice as often as Orks do baseline though. That makes a big difference.

Yeah, and even at the full 10 points an S5 36" Assault 3 would still be worlds better than either the Heavy Bolter or the Assault Bolter (S5 18" Assault 3 for 10 points.)

Why does a 36' gun need to move? specifically advance? Because the other 9 boyz in his mob have either 12' or 18' guns and only move 5' which means at max they have a threat range of 23 which means they will be advancing to close the distance...especially since as a rule they are better in assault then in shooting. A SM with a Heavy Bolter is 13pts for a model and 10 for the gun so 23, for 24pts an Ork player can take 2 Big shoota boyz (In a mob of 20) The 2 Big shoota boyz put out 6 shots and about 2.3 hits a turn with Dakkax3 this results in 1.55ish wounds and against a marine that is .51sh Damage against a SM. The Tac Marine with a heavy bolter fires 3 shots for 2 hits on average (not taking any chapter tactics into account at all) which results in about 1.33ish wounds which ends up with 1.33 damage because -1AP means no armor save Vs Heavy Bolters. Congrats a single Marine with a Heavy botler on average does almost triple the damage 2 Orkz with big shootas can do in return, for roughly the same price.

So why do they need a major buff? because they suck and have no purpose. Either that or let me take as many Heavy weapons as I want per boyz squad and give them a slight buff.

Let me put it another way. A Big Shoota boy costs 12pts currently, a Loota is 17pts. A loota has 12' more range, D3 shots instead of 3, S7, -1 AP and 2 damage. so for 5pts more they gain more range, a lot more strength, more AP and twice as much damage.

Doesn't that answer your own question? They don't need a buff because you already have a long range unit that's more cost effective and works better...
Why do you want to have boys being able to do the job of a lootas as well as being able to fight really well and being able to be taken in large numbers?

It seems what you really want is for lootas to be able to mob up again?

The ork boy is absolutely fine as it is. Its hard enough to deal with unless you come geared for hordes and have the army that can deliver that efficiently. They do not need a buff!
Are you complaining about taking a big shoota is in a boys unit? It sucks because it is meant to suck IMO. The problem is not the unit itself, as I think a big mob of boys is probably the strongest troops choice in the game. The unit itself is sound. The 2 models you can take with big shootas suck because its not the primary function of the unit...

Maybe Im misunderstanding the conversation here so apologies if that's the case.