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Also this awesome image, because I love it.

So from what I gather in this topic a lot of people miss the pencil sketch type of artwork that was done on a low budget and confuse that with loss of "grim dark"

Others are set in their way, followers of Nurgle, who hate change. They don't want any new lore, and mistake new developments for a loss in grim darkness of the setting. Again, this is not the case. A lot of individuals who hold this view get their lore knowledge from 1d4chan summaries.

I've noticed that a lot of the 4Chan wiki type sites can have good information, but they are very opinionated articles by and large. They are far from "cold hard facts" and much closer to interpretations of the writers. Units don't just "underperform" they are "outright swearword trash" type descriptions.

 Ishagu wrote:
So from what I gather in this topic a lot of people miss the pencil sketch type of artwork that was done on a low budget and confuse that with loss of "grim dark"

Oh hi, Ishagu. Fancy seeing you here.

To respond to your comment: Mmmmm, no.

 Ishagu wrote:
So from what I gather in this topic a lot of people miss the pencil sketch type of artwork that was done on a low budget and confuse that with loss of "grim dark"

Others are set in the way, followers of Nurgle, who hate change. They don't want any new lore, and mistake new developments for a loss in grim darkness of the setting. Again, this is not the case. A lot of individuals who hold this view get their lore knowledge from 1d4chan summaries.

A change in the setting that causes it to become less grim, or less dark in tone, is a change that reduces the amount of "grimdark" in the setting.

At this point, a lot of the grimdark in the "main narrative" of 40k is told rather than shown. "Oh god, everything is so horrible, the cicadia copyrightum has opened up and divided the universe.

To illustrate that point, here is a ton of different battle scenes in which the imperium wins without significant difficulty.

Wow, such tension!"

The worst the imperium has come off since the 13th crusade has been in the most recent PA book, which was a stalemate between Tau/GSC/Guard. Each of the three had a victory within the story.

Read the novels, not just the campaign books.

It doesn't get more grim dark than seeing legendary heroes and symbols of hope begging for death.

 Ishagu wrote:
Read the novels, not just the campaign books.

Here's my issue. The novels kinda suck. And back in the day the imagery and stories in the basic literature BRB/Codexes was more impactful. I don't want to have to dig for the grimdark.

The novels aren't Shakespeare's works, but the recent books are strong compared to past 40k stories, and are decent pulp Sci-Fi. If you care about the lore read them, if you don't care enough about the lore to invest soms effort into the novels why complain about it? You only care a tiny bit, enough to read some codex blurb? The biggest change people can't grasp is the fact that 40k is now a story and not just a setting.

Stories are told in novels. Settings and campaigns are described in codexes.

40k started as satire, then became comically grim dark absurd, and now it has the best balance.

 Ishagu wrote:
The novels aren't Shakespeare's works, but the recent works are strong compared to past 40k stories, and are decent pulp Sci-Fi. If you care about the lore read them, if you don't care enough about the lore to invest soms effort into the novels why complain about it? You only care a tiny bit, enough to read some codex blurb?

40k started as satire, then became comically grim dark absurd, and now it has the best balance.

"Pssh, you think Star Wars: The Phantom Menace is some kind of...of poorly written, poorly characterized shlock? You CHARLATAN, you PHILISTINE I say, if you won't invest the effort even to read the excellent novelization how can you even begin to comprehend the complex interweave of motivations, the deep characterization of such personnes d'importe as Jar Jar Binks and Darth Maul?

Begone from my sight! I judge ye Not A True Fan!"

A lot of true fans of Star Wars do take an interest in the extended universe.

Be glad GW didn't erase it all like Disney did with Star Wars.

Also this topic isn't about the quality of the story, it's about grim darkness. The answer is no, it has not been lost. It just isn't as satirical and absurd as before, but just as strong.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
So from what I gather in this topic a lot of people miss the pencil sketch type of artwork that was done on a low budget and confuse that with loss of "grim dark"

Others are set in the way, followers of Nurgle, who hate change. They don't want any new lore, and mistake new developments for a loss in grim darkness of the setting. Again, this is not the case. A lot of individuals who hold this view get their lore knowledge from 1d4chan summaries.

A change in the setting that causes it to become less grim, or less dark in tone, is a change that reduces the amount of "grimdark" in the setting.

At this point, a lot of the grimdark in the "main narrative" of 40k is told rather than shown. "Oh god, everything is so horrible, the cicadia copyrightum has opened up and divided the universe.

To illustrate that point, here is a ton of different battle scenes in which the imperium wins without significant difficulty.

Wow, such tension!"

The worst the imperium has come off since the 13th crusade has been in the most recent PA book, which was a stalemate between Tau/GSC/Guard. Each of the three had a victory within the story.

There’s also Warhammer Horror

Definitely not full of hope and bright.

 Ishagu wrote:

Stories are told in novels. Settings and campaigns are described in codexes.

The impression of the setting is what I'm after. What is the impression given by the entry points into the game? BRB and codexes.

Don't tell them about Warhammer Horror. They only read the codex and have no interest in actually understanding the finer points of the setting and lore.


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 Insectum7 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

Stories are told in novels. Settings and campaigns are described in codexes.

The impression of the setting is what I'm after. What is the impression given by the entry points into the game? BRB and codexes.

If an impression is all you have you can't make a real judgement. Hence it's only an impression.

 Ishagu wrote:
Don't tell them about Warhammer Horror. They only read the codex and have no interest in actually understanding the finer points of the setting and lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

Stories are told in novels. Settings and campaigns are described in codexes.

The impression of the setting is what I'm after. What is the impression given by the entry points into the game? BRB and codexes.

If an impression is all you have you can't make a real judgement. Hence it's only an impression.

Umm, no. I can make a judgement based off an impression, this a cornerstone of disciplines like advertising or cinematography. Or I can simply judge the effectiveness of an impression.

 Ishagu wrote:
Don't tell them about Warhammer Horror. They only read the codex and have no interest in actually understanding the finer points of the setting and lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

Stories are told in novels. Settings and campaigns are described in codexes.

The impression of the setting is what I'm after. What is the impression given by the entry points into the game? BRB and codexes.

If an impression is all you have you can't make a real judgement. Hence it's only an impression.

Rule One, dude. Rule One. Simmer down about three points, and you’re golden

The reason I shared Warhammer Horror is because it’s a natural counterpoint to the ‘but they’re making Chibis’ stuff.

GW are, in the eternal search for ever more cash, branching out quote considerably. That some stuff is just sort of, mass market appeal. It’s absolutely not a sign of GW ‘chickening our’ or ‘cleansing’ the background. Just sussing out possible new revenue streams.

I mean, I can buy Jason, Freddie, Chucky, Pinhead etc cuddly toys, if I really want. But that in absolutely no way stops them all being icons of horror.

I would probably think of it as more grimdark if what happened in the novels actually meant anything on the tabletop.

"Oh, the Sapphire King is fething with the Iron Hands? Why didn't they just delete her with bolters? She's got a 5++ save and only 16 wounds at T7. This novel is dumb."

It's not very grimdark when ANAPHALAXAS, DAEMON-KING OF TEN THOUSAND WORLDS is trivially one-rounded by a single average detachment of space marines, with loads and loads of firepower to spare. Heck, they could probably kill his brothers VORSOTHUMEDES, LORD OF THE EFFULGENT PAIN and GEORGE, THE BARRISTER with the stray bullets.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Read the novels, not just the campaign books.

Here's my issue. The novels kinda suck. And back in the day the imagery and stories in the basic literature BRB/Codexes was more impactful. I don't want to have to dig for the grimdark.

This is true.

The poke at the vainglorious sociopaths who run the contemporary world was the element that made the grimdark so visceral in the past. It was a mirror on our own state of affairs.

Turning this point to the current world, things are dramatically worse today than 30 years ago for most people, but the sociopathy has taken on a glossy veneer as mass media has become so fully corrupted against any window on truth... look at what the US is doing to Julian Assange.

40k reflects this turn. I think that this is a turn for the worse. I also appreciated the in your face-ness of the parody that was 40k. This is hidden away even as GW turned into a harlot for shareholder short term interests. Most disturbing for me however has been the rapidity with which fanbois circle the wagons around this corrupted enterprise in defense of the profit seeking profligacy.

Glossy veneer. This is what we see when we see 40k. Dig deeper and you get C grade fanfiction posing as so called lore... just profit taking that waters down the legacy until soon enough the bubble will burst and Restartes will be in Happy Meals. Yuk.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I would probably think of it as more grimdark if what happened in the novels actually meant anything on the tabletop.

"Oh, the Sapphire King is fething with the Iron Hands? Why didn't they just delete her with bolters? She's got a 5++ save and only 16 wounds at T7. This novel is dumb."

It's not very grimdark when ANAPHALAXAS, DAEMON-KING OF TEN THOUSAND WORLDS is trivially one-rounded by a single average detachment of space marines, with loads and loads of firepower to spare. Heck, they could probably kill his brothers VORSOTHUMEDES, LORD OF THE EFFULGENT PAIN and GEORGE, THE BARRISTER with the stray bullets.

One cannot represent the GrimDark on the tabletop.

Why?

Because in the background, everything is dialled to 11, except for the winners, who are dialled to 11 and a bit.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I would probably think of it as more grimdark if what happened in the novels actually meant anything on the tabletop.

"Oh, the Sapphire King is fething with the Iron Hands? Why didn't they just delete her with bolters? She's got a 5++ save and only 16 wounds at T7. This novel is dumb."

It's not very grimdark when ANAPHALAXAS, DAEMON-KING OF TEN THOUSAND WORLDS is trivially one-rounded by a single average detachment of space marines, with loads and loads of firepower to spare. Heck, they could probably kill his brothers VORSOTHUMEDES, LORD OF THE EFFULGENT PAIN and GEORGE, THE BARRISTER with the stray bullets.

One cannot represent the GrimDark on the tabletop.

Why?

Because in the background, everything is dialled to 11, except for the winners, who are dialled to 11 and a bit.

Just leave everyone dialed to 11 and don't have a designated winner, letting dice variance (or player skill variance, in greater part) define who that winner is.

40k needs dialed down to a 6 and falling. 11 was the glory of early empire. Now we live in the wreckage. Close enough to reality as to regain its poignancy and purpose. But out of the contemproary consumers' depths ...

Except....in the background? It’s never a straight, balanced punch up.

It’s either five Marines versus thousands of Orks.

Or tens of thousands of Astra Militarum drubbing a foe.

You....you can represent that on the tabletop. The tabletop is abstract.

No, thanks for coming to my ted talk.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
The novels aren't Shakespeare's works, but the recent works are strong compared to past 40k stories, and are decent pulp Sci-Fi. If you care about the lore read them, if you don't care enough about the lore to invest soms effort into the novels why complain about it? You only care a tiny bit, enough to read some codex blurb?

40k started as satire, then became comically grim dark absurd, and now it has the best balance.

"Pssh, you think Star Wars: The Phantom Menace is some kind of...of poorly written, poorly characterized shlock? You CHARLATAN, you PHILISTINE I say, if you won't invest the effort even to read the excellent novelization how can you even begin to comprehend the complex interweave of motivations, the deep characterization of such personnes d'importe as Jar Jar Binks and Darth Maul?

Begone from my sight! I judge ye Not A True Fan!"

While I hate the notion of "you've got to read ALL the material to be a True Fan" (as if such a thing exists), or implying that there is even one True Way of engaging with 40k, they do have a point (maybe if not articulated quite how I'd say it).

There is plenty of grimdark 40k lore. If you don't read it, that doesn't mean it's not out there, and isn't the kind of grimdark stuff there always used to be.

Wot Sgt Smudge said.

There’s no requirement to read the novels in order to be a fan.

But, to weigh in on the background? Well......they’re all canon, so to not read them, and then form a conclusion about something ultimately nebulous? It’s not often I’ll say this, but it does mean your opinion doesn’t carry as much weight as someone who has.

And yet when I say it people tend to disagree.

Must be the way I come across in written format

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wot Sgt Smudge said.

There’s no requirement to read the novels in order to be a fan.

But, to weigh in on the background? Well......they’re all canon, so to not read them, and then form a conclusion about something ultimately nebulous? It’s not often I’ll say this, but it does mean your opinion doesn’t carry as much weight as someone who has.

Sort of. Technically I agree with this statement. But what I was trying to get at is a sort of guage in terms of necessary exposure to reach a certain "level of grimdark". Some prior editions of 40K have grimdark more up front, some put it more to the background. In 2nd Ed, the boxes and miniature art were very bright and colorful, but opening the rulebook/codex imperialis the flavor content of the interior tended to give a darker impression. How does the product reveal itself to you? What is the impression you come away with after looking at it for five minutes? On a scale of 1 to 10, rate your impression of the setting from "grimdark" to "heroic".

You could even split it up in terms of level of exposure, starting with marketing material through to esoteric novelization. Art plays a huuuuge role in this, as visual art will blast impressions at a person long before they read the contents of a novel.

 Ishagu wrote:
And yet when I say it people tend to disagree.

Must be the way I come across in written format

Seriously? Quite possibly. I work in the financial complaint industry. And I’m very good at what I do, because I choose my words and phrases carefully, and couch the message in simple but precise terms. If I didn’t do that (and I haven’t always), work would become a PITA.

It’s genuinely a skill, but happily one all can learn, given time. My top tip? Type out what you want to say, then go and have a nice cup of tea. Cuppa enjoyed? Come back to your writing, and put yourself in the shoes of the other person.

Look for obvious triggers ( no, not in that way), and bits you thought of but didn’t quite nail first time around. Edit it. Then read it out loud (I am genuinely not joking here). If you’re happy with it? Post. If not, edit.

And if you find it hard to get the right words down? That’s your brain telling you there’s something niggling away you’ve failed to find out or address.

Now, most of that is my professional approach. And I’m nowhere near that conscientious on Dakka. But, the pointers and rules still work out pretty nice

But most of all? Never, ever just assume the respondee is an idiot.

Be polite. Be precise. Address their comments, not them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wot Sgt Smudge said.

There’s no requirement to read the novels in order to be a fan.

But, to weigh in on the background? Well......they’re all canon, so to not read them, and then form a conclusion about something ultimately nebulous? It’s not often I’ll say this, but it does mean your opinion doesn’t carry as much weight as someone who has.

Sort of. Technically I agree with this statement. But what I was trying to get at is a sort of guage in terms of necessary exposure to reach a certain "level of grimdark". Some prior editions of 40K have grimdark more up front, some put it more to the background. In 2nd Ed, the boxes and miniature art were very bright and colorful, but opening the rulebook/codex imperialis the flavor content of the interior tended to give a darker impression. How does the product reveal itself to you? What is the impression you come away with after looking at it for five minutes? On a scale of 1 to 10, rate your impression of the setting from "grimdark" to "heroic".

You could even split it up in terms of level of exposure, starting with marketing material through to esoteric novelization. Art plays a huuuuge role in this, as visual art will blast impressions at a person long before they read the contents of a novel.

What you’re saying?

I agree. 100%. But I’m highly allergic to being a Gate Keeper, so I can’t say where that line lies.

But, what gets my goat is when others express a singularly uninformed opinion. As in, they’ve read one sliver of the background, and therefore they’re right.

Because when it comes to lore as colossal as 40k’s? And when there’s sad old gorgnards such as myself. Who recall but cannot cite obscure WD passages and paragraphs, and for all I can prove it I might as well have imagined the whole thing?

Nobody is right. None of us

Example? As mentioned earlier, I’ve recently got me copies of the Realm of Chaos Books. The background within is largely recognisable. And some stuff (Nurgle being jovial in nature) hasn’t changed a bit. But an awful, awful lot has changed.

Some stuff (perpetuals spring to mind) have kinda returned, after a fashion. But changed.

The Sensei, Starchild, Malal and other obscurities? Yeah. So far as I’m aware*? Never turned up beyond the Rogue Trader era.

*look at that phrase. It’s deliberately not definitive. I am not presenting myself as the final word in background knowledge. I accept there’s far more I’ve not read, than I have read. Some novels just don’t interest me, but I still accept they’ve something to say. I’m not Gate Keeping!


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Interpretation of 40k also depends on your pop culture.

Whilst I fully get and appreciate that Slaanesh is about excess in all things? Finding some kind of joy in each and every exeperience? And how quickly that will burn someone out of ‘normal’?

The Rocky Horror Picture Shown shall always be my touchstone on such things.

For some, Khorne simply doesn’t give a flip from whence the blood flows. For others? That’s ultimately true, but to seek out and fight the strongest? That’s just more worthy. It increases one’s devotion.

Tzeentch? Well. If I set a particularly evil pub quiz (name a large hairy Dog. Sorry, it’s Kevin) is one thing. I can delve into my Nerd Knowledge and quite possibly write one so utterly obscure, nobody scores any points. But for proper favour? I need to be way smarter and cunning than I actually am.

Nurgle? I could contract and carry all His diseases. And then just sort of sit around, enjoying the pustules and playing with me Nurglings (oooooer!). But as much as that in itself pleases Nurgle? Going out and spreading His bounty is just that step above, doesn’t even need to be in combat.

All that the Chaos Gods really demand isn’t loyalty and devotion. That we then introduce our own humanity to that? That’s where proper insanity kicks.

Consider Orks.

I can read the background. I can absorb and understand the background. But as a natural pacifist? I’ll never, ever get it.

And so on and so forth.

No one Nerd is the font of all 40k, AoS or GW knowledge. We can get three or more Nerds to read a PA ‘prediction page’ (you know the ones).....and we’ll all have our own conclusions and theories, depending upon what else we’ve read, and how that influenced our thought process.

And that?

That is why GW have such intriguing background. There are breadcrumbs to follow, but nothing is absolutely definitive.

So we all follow said breadcrumbs, and we’ll all wind up at a slightly different Witch’s Hut,

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Do you think GW is trying to make the 40k universe a bit less dystopian? It always will be but I feel like they are trying to make it less grim and dark. The tau robots and battle suits have always looked a bit too utopian to me, probably bars on the other places you see this kinds of designs. The new primaris models, whilst being excellent, feel a bit GI joe in the 41st century. Now we’re getting Bandai action figures and all sorts of stuff. Are the slowly re engineering the setting in a attempt to appeal to..... happier people?

It began with the introduction of the cute smiling Nurglings. Killed the horror of the warp right there. This comes from a Nurgle player who uses exclusively old metal Nurglings.

Thats bizare - Nurglings have always been like that from day one. Cute, smelly fat diseased imps. I have plenty of the old metal Nurglings as well.

Are you trying to troll me? The metal nurglings aren't comparable in any way to the plastic trash we got today. And no, the nurglings which I am talking about are not from 1990. They were introduced around 3rd.

The only smiling dude was the Great Unclean One which is fine with me. But nowadays we have cartoonish nurglings too and the abyssmal guy who rides on a slug. He looks as stupid as the Necron who thinks he is Michael "Air" Jordan. Who should take these morons seriously? Short answer: No one. That's why Grimdark is dead and the Age of Cringe finally arrived into 40K.

Literally wrong. Go on SoLegends. Look at the Nurglings (MDG has even provided the page ITT). Note how jolly they look, one is even tittering for himself. I’ve had this out with you before but you won’t have it so kindly jog on with this incorrect rhetoric.

Nurglings from 3rd is my topic and none of them have this stupid grin on their face like the plastic ones. Comprende?

@MDGrotsnik All well and good. But to a few specific points:

"Nobody is right. None of us"

We can make observations about how the product presentation or lore changes over the years.

"That is why GW have such intriguing background. There are breadcrumbs to follow, but nothing is absolutely definitive."

Some things, particularly the Horus Heresy, have become faaaaar more defined than they once were. Obviously, as a franchise moves forward more things will be added and/or further defined. Sometimes this is good, sometimes it can be poorly handled or detrimental.

Even beyond that, tone can change without individual facts or story elements changing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Spoiler:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Do you think GW is trying to make the 40k universe a bit less dystopian? It always will be but I feel like they are trying to make it less grim and dark. The tau robots and battle suits have always looked a bit too utopian to me, probably bars on the other places you see this kinds of designs. The new primaris models, whilst being excellent, feel a bit GI joe in the 41st century. Now we’re getting Bandai action figures and all sorts of stuff. Are the slowly re engineering the setting in a attempt to appeal to..... happier people?

It began with the introduction of the cute smiling Nurglings. Killed the horror of the warp right there. This comes from a Nurgle player who uses exclusively old metal Nurglings.

Thats bizare - Nurglings have always been like that from day one. Cute, smelly fat diseased imps. I have plenty of the old metal Nurglings as well.

Are you trying to troll me? The metal nurglings aren't comparable in any way to the plastic trash we got today. And no, the nurglings which I am talking about are not from 1990. They were introduced around 3rd.

The only smiling dude was the Great Unclean One which is fine with me. But nowadays we have cartoonish nurglings too and the abyssmal guy who rides on a slug. He looks as stupid as the Necron who thinks he is Michael "Air" Jordan. Who should take these morons seriously? Short answer: No one. That's why Grimdark is dead and the Age of Cringe finally arrived into 40K.

Literally wrong. Go on SoLegends. Look at the Nurglings (MDG has even provided the page ITT). Note how jolly they look, one is even tittering for himself. I’ve had this out with you before but you won’t have it so kindly jog on with this incorrect rhetoric.

Can't you read? Nurglings from 3rd is my topic and none of them have this stupid grin on their face like the plastic ones. Comprende?

When you say "It began with the introduction of cute, smiley nurglings", but "cute and smiley", or "cartoonish" are also features of the original nurglings from 1990, it get's weird.

Today I had an idea for a Black Library book or series of books about a battle between the Word Bearers and the Black Templars, backed up by Sisters of Battle, over control of a planet. Loyalists and Chaos followers are scattered to varying degrees across the world's various populations, with different degrees of zeal. When both sides arrive, in the respective zones that they control, they enact extreme measures to try to 'purify' the populations, being very reminiscent of how ISIS and other extremist organizations behave when they come to power. In Word Bearers regions, altars are erected and mass sacrifices are performed, some of them very long and torturous. Anybody even suspected of being loyal to the Imperium or of worshipping the Emperor would be subject to immediate death or enslavement. In the areas controlled by the Templars and the Sisters, anyone not expressing immediate and absolute loyalty to the Emperor, often through having to sacrifice almost all of their goods towards the war effort, could be purged on site. Oh, you need that medicine for your sick mother and don't want to have to give it all to the auxilia troops? Blam! Anyone questioning in the slightest the actions of the Imperial forces are at serious risk of, again, death or enslavement. To make things even grittier, the majority of the atrocities committed would not be done by the official armed forces, who would be too busy fighting the war, but by average humans tasked with cleansing their particular sides of those assumed to be enemies. Gangs of demented Chaos cultists (both zealous followers and those who just want to take advantage of the situation) would roam around extorting, torturing, enslaving, raping, and killing anyone who they got their hands on, all in the name 'liberating' the planet from the Imperium. On the loyalist side, rogue Arbites would brutalize anyone they wanted, confiscating anything they wanted under the guise of helping the war effort. Hordes of pious Emperor-worshippers, occasionally led by exceptionally zealous Sisters, would pore through neighborhoods, incinerating anyone they believe to be a heretic even in the loosest sense. Your brother knows someone who might possibly be connected to a Chaos cult? Best to be safe and burn you all. Former friends would turn against each other out of fear or to try to use the chaos to get something from you that they want. Old scores, such as ethnic rivalries, would erupt into violence, using the war as an excuse to commit atrocities. Violence against suspected mutants and other percieved deviant groups would flare up. Religious figures on both sides would rile up huge mobs to attack whole communities suspected of aiding the enemy.

The story would not be told from the point of view of the Marines or Sisters, but from average people who are desperately trying to survive and escape, on both sides of the conflict; people huddling together in refugee camps and traveling in large columns, vulnerable to all manner of abuse and often forced to seek 'protection' from those who often abuse and extort them in different ways. When the Marines, inquisitors, Sisters and other big players came into view, at best they would see the suffering as necessary to get the job done, with little thought to the needs of the common people, and at worse, would congratulate the abusers on doing what is necessary to force the population to accept the authority of the occupying forces and getting them to 'donate' to the respective causes. There would be no scenes of glory, no flashy space fantasy theatrics, nothing for TTS to riff off of, just suffering and death.

Now a story like that would be a way to keep the grimdark.