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mrFickle wrote:
Do you think GW is trying to make the 40k universe a bit less dystopian? It always will be but I feel like they are trying to make it less grim and dark. The tau robots and battle suits have always looked a bit too utopian to me, probably bars on the other places you see this kinds of designs. The new primaris models, whilst being excellent, feel a bit GI joe in the 41st century. Now we’re getting Bandai action figures and all sorts of stuff. Are the slowly re engineering the setting in a attempt to appeal to..... happier people?

A bit. 40K took a weird turn in 3rd edition to parody-levels of Grimdark. They've lately been returning to more of the Rogue Trader and 2nd ed. roots in terms of feel. You also see this with the Rogue Trader kill team box and models, Genestealer Cults and stuff like Squats and Zoats returning to the modern game.

Compare the quotes in the 3rd ed. Dark Eldar book to their 8th ed. book for some examples of how they've changed from Saturday morning cartoon villain grimdark to something more a bit more subtle.

I think there's also a few other things going on

1) Some of the Grim Dark is in peoples minds more so than ever in the lore. Often people who tended to read less of the books and more just the codex and rulebooks. Building off the artwork and chatter with other fans they built a mental picture of a Grim Dark setting that was way darker than the Imperium as a whole.

2) GW is outreaching to new markets and side markets. Things like the books for kids and "chibi" models or even boardgames might, by some, be interpreted as dilution of the IP or even a shift in the IP away from Grimdark. In truth its simply GW taking the existing IP and applying it to other markets with suitable adjustments.

3) Not everyone actually reads the lore - in fact I'd argue the majority never open a Black Library book. So sometimes they see the happier/hopeful elements appearing here and there and they assume that things are changing. Whereas if they read more of the stories they'd realise that stories with hope and victory and good things ARE present in the lore and have been for a very long time. It's just something they either never identified with or even encountered.

4) The Imperium are the Good Guys - well kinda I mean they are the victorious good people who dominate the lore and books. So with material written by them for them of course they come off as the winners. That the Space Marines are defending an Empire of bloated madness where people toil in vast hive cities every day of their lives. Left with only scant time to eat, sleep and breed; with all the rest devoted to slave level labour with NO health and safety. Where peoples heads are sliced and diced to make servitors - brainddead machines to replace actual AI; where the rich might live for generations and go quite mad and insane; where whole planets can be lost within the administrative nightmare; where if you annoy the wrong guild member you can find your worlds cut off from the Imperium for generations.

Heck where the main mode of space travel is quite literally flying through hell.

Yeah its still very Grim Dark. Heck I'd argue that Grim Dark relies on hope and good things because its only by having them that they can be lost.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment"

You can't have darkness without first having light to lose. You can't have darkness without a beacon of light to slave and fight and die toward.

But for those of you who don’t see the grimdark being reduced how embedded are you in the lore. You’re on this forum so I’m gonna guess “somewhat”.

My observation is that GW are changing the facade on the high street to make it more action hero like and then leaving it to us to get more I got eh setting off we choose. Or that might be what I think now after reading the responses.

mrFickle wrote:
But for those of you who don’t see the grimdark being reduced how embedded are you in the lore. You’re on this forum so I’m gonna guess “somewhat”.

Yeah, I like to do my best to stay up to date on current lore, especially beyond the kneejerk takes on it. Like, I can completely understand how, at first glance, certain things look odd, but they're not exactly hard things to educate on. And, as I say below, 40k has always (for me, at least) been outwardly "generic", and then the grimdark is just under the surface.

My observation is that GW are changing the facade on the high street to make it more action hero like and then leaving it to us to get more I got eh setting off we choose. Or that might be what I think now after reading the responses.

In my experience, it's always been like that - the heroic Space Marines, the might of good old humanity - and then with the slightest scrape of that veneer, it's back to grimdarkness. Been like that for years, they just happen to have a much larger media presence now, and some more varied toys.

I’d say it’s that very veneer that is core to the GrimDark.

To see humanity’s saviours as not even human, and of precious few scruples when it suits them? That’s grim and dark.

Space Wolves serve as a wonderful counter point to that, and I suspect that, as much as their aesthetic is important to their popularity. That the most ferocious and barbaric looking Astartes, who drink themselves drunk despite their superhuman biology, that wear fetishes, totems and pelts, are among the few to stand up for their brothers in arms, and tell The Inquisition ‘yeah, no you’re not’? Magnificent.

All Guilliman’s returns, and the dawn of the Primaris have brought is hope. And as others have said, hope is a truly dreadful thing. Hope can be snatched away. Hope can stay one’s hand. Hope can see a warrior abandon their post to survive one more minute, hour, day.

Take all that hope away? And people will fight to their absolute last. Because after hope is taken, all I’m left with is spite. And if that means a few more seconds pumping las round after las round into the oncoming enemy? That might just be the metaphorical butterfly wing that starts the tornado of victory.

1W is more grimdark than 2W. Just sayin.

 Insectum7 wrote:
1W is more grimdark than 2W. Just sayin.

Yeah, curse those Space Marine Captains and Company Commanders with their 3 Wounds.

2W would only be an issue if there weren't a system which was capable of stripping of multiple wounds at once.

 Insectum7 wrote:
1W is more grimdark than 2W. Just sayin.

So my Night Lord's terminators aren't grimdark? Damn, and I thought that a bunch of transhuman psychopaths in hulking, nigh impenetrable armor, suddenly teleporting into your face in order to tear you and your friends apart, skinning the survivors alive and turning their skin and various bits into cloaks and jewelry before nailing the sometimes still living remains to the wall as a reminder to everyone what happens when you feth with the sons of Curze was grimdark. My mistake.

And I painted so much blood for the blood god on their lightning claws and chainfists too.

Guess 40k is just getting soft.

I think they've just shifted the focus to lighter things for public perception. Appealing to the mass market is a different beast so they're shifting a little.

One of the simplest ways to do that is telling the story of 40k through characters more than they used to.

For people who play the game and play a faction, one they were encouraged to invent their own characters in, the setting is all they need. Named characters add flavour but they aren't narrative drivers.


However 40k is now larger than the tabletop and in other markets, characters are how casual consumers engage with material. This market is Invested through characters.

So what I think we are seeing is GW pulling on parts of 40k that are appropriate for the markets they are selling to.

While I prefer the setting centric nature of the table top, it's actually a pretty unusual way of engaging people with Fiction. Virtually all other forms of entertainment media are stories about people and the trials they go through in the context of the world they exist in.

And it follows that it's hard to sell characters that are contentious or 'bad' as protagonists.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
1W is more grimdark than 2W. Just sayin.

So my Night Lord's terminators aren't grimdark? Damn, and I thought that a bunch of transhuman psychopaths in hulking, nigh impenetrable armor, suddenly teleporting into your face in order to tear you and your friends apart, skinning the survivors alive and turning their skin and various bits into cloaks and jewelry before nailing the sometimes still living remains to the wall as a reminder to everyone what happens when you feth with the sons of Curze was grimdark. My mistake.

And I painted so much blood for the blood god on their lightning claws and chainfists too.

Guess 40k is just getting soft.

They probably mean *loyalist* Terminators. Because look at those Carcharadons, such charming, lovely fellows! I mean Tyberos the Red Wake - that's just his favourite colour!

Can't have humans being slightly better than hopeless, I guess.


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Hellebore wrote:
And it follows that it's hard to sell characters that are contentious or 'bad' as protagonists.

That's a fair point - it's far easier to go through a story following someone who is at least slightly good natured.

I mean, look at Gaunt's Ghosts - I'm not sure I'd call any of the protagonists in that bad. Even Gaunt, a literal Commissar, doesn't exactly rack up a massive tally of field executions (though he does make some, but we're usually on board with him when he does - he's a stark example of a morally "good" Commissar). So, with GG arguably being one of the most popular 40k series of fiction, and not exactly being always depressing and terrible (though it definitely has it's moments), the "good guys" do nearly always pull through. Still grimdark though, right?

GW products have been primarily marketed towards "kids"/young-mid teens since the early 90's so not sure what people are talking about when it comes to that.

The action figure stuff is clearly because nerds lap that nonsense up, no matter what their age.

The stories and art are a little more sanitised perhaps, at least I think that you have to go searching for the grimdark (stupid term) a bit more but it was always a silly (yet awesome) setting that included superheroes and supervillains.

Probably 90s people were different. I know that I never had to do stuff like my dad or mom had to do when they were my age.

different stuff is okey and not okey now.

Dai wrote:
GW products have been primarily marketed towards "kids"/young-mid teens since the early 90's so not sure what people are talking about when it comes to that. .

I did an informal poll on Dakka a while back
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/763215.page

Something like over 70% of us started in our teenage years (or younger). Whilst once you hit around 20 the number of people starting up drops off dramatically. Suffice it to say that the teenager market is clearly where GW manages to create a large body of its market who then grow up. They have far less chance of securing older people as fresh gamers. This also makes sense when you consider that GW is one of the major market leaders and entry points for the wargaming hobby. Chances are some of the other companies, esp those that have to trade only online, might actually see a reverse or slightly different pattern, with fewer younger, but more older people picking them up.

 Overread wrote:

Dai wrote:
GW products have been primarily marketed towards "kids"/young-mid teens since the early 90's so not sure what people are talking about when it comes to that. .

I did an informal poll on Dakka a while back
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/763215.page

Something like over 70% of us started in our teenage years (or younger). Whilst once you hit around 20 the number of people starting up drops off dramatically. Suffice it to say that the teenager market is clearly where GW manages to create a large body of its market who then grow up. They have far less chance of securing older people as fresh gamers. This also makes sense when you consider that GW is one of the major market leaders and entry points for the wargaming hobby. Chances are some of the other companies, esp those that have to trade only online, might actually see a reverse or slightly different pattern, with fewer younger, but more older people picking them up.

You're likely correct, many people will start with GW as the gateway and then try other games at an older age as they fancy a change.

I don't know I guess I see this like adults complaining about Star Wars. Ultimately it's a young persons product and it's fine that we oldies still enjoy it but we should remember....it's for the kids. And trying to stop it being so would be inherently changing it from what made it good anyway. Not that I am saying kids can't like grimdark, they very much can, but at the same time I suspect GW has done their research.

Honestly I think GW strikes a very good level between teen and adult; their product is a very solid "Young Adult" franchise which has elements of younger and older market content all wrapped up inside.


It's not like, say, pokemon where the original fanbase has all grown up and remained fans, but the company has remained marketing at a preteen to young teen market

GW did indeed start making the setting more morally "clear", but only because imperials demand their precious uwu marines be depicted in a positive light. And sadly said imperial fans were hired as new blood by GW and BL...

Dai wrote:
GW products have been primarily marketed towards "kids"/young-mid teens since the early 90's so not sure what people are talking about when it comes to that.

The action figure stuff is clearly because nerds lap that nonsense up, no matter what their age.

The stories and art are a little more sanitised perhaps, at least I think that you have to go searching for the grimdark (stupid term) a bit more but it was always a silly (yet awesome) setting that included superheroes and supervillains.

Interesting, so you think GW isn’t trying to “kiddify” it’s brand but is trying to exploit the kind of nerd that’s “gotta have them all”? I love sci fi but I don’t want the t-shirt or the collectables, but I have friends who just hoard the paraphernalia and go to comicon etc. I can see how the Bandai stuff would appeal to them. Expect they don’t play 40k.

I played 2ed as a teenager and have returned at 8ed so the landscape has changed a lot and there are conventions now and the dressing up people so the landscape has changed. So FairPlay to GW if they are tapping into that market, I just wish they sold a citadel range of deodorants (hint hint guys in my local GW). Leman Musk anyone?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
1W is more grimdark than 2W. Just sayin.

Yeah, curse those Space Marine Captains and Company Commanders with their 3 Wounds.

2W would only be an issue if there weren't a system which was capable of stripping of multiple wounds at once.

Things look a lot less desperate when your baseline troop is miles better than their xenos counterparts. But nice try.


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Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
1W is more grimdark than 2W. Just sayin.

So my Night Lord's terminators aren't grimdark? Damn, and I thought that a bunch of transhuman psychopaths in hulking, nigh impenetrable armor, suddenly teleporting into your face in order to tear you and your friends apart, skinning the survivors alive and turning their skin and various bits into cloaks and jewelry before nailing the sometimes still living remains to the wall as a reminder to everyone what happens when you feth with the sons of Curze was grimdark. My mistake.

And I painted so much blood for the blood god on their lightning claws and chainfists too.

Guess 40k is just getting soft.

Haha, no. Those guys are just try hard.

I'm talking baseline marines.

Somewhat.

Yes 40k has always been marketed towards young kids/boys.

It still is, but I think they just cant get away with the same sort of cover aesthetic and plaster some of the old art on their FB/Web Page. So everything has been made "clean" in the art style IMO.

Lore wise maybe not but the aesthetic style for sure and that creates the clean heroic veneer they can sell to parents. Who would take issues and launch virtual crusades if they suspected GW is trying to sell their kids bloodthirsty gory demons etc..

I dont know what their intention is, but either way it is getting less and less dark. As a kid the dystopian feel of the setting is one reason I fell in love with it, and its a let down knowing theyre doing the opposite in hopes of getting other kids to stay.

Even if they werent trying to make 40k less generic and "kid friendly" its definitley the direction they are going anyway

Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
1W is more grimdark than 2W. Just sayin.

Yeah, curse those Space Marine Captains and Company Commanders with their 3 Wounds.

2W would only be an issue if there weren't a system which was capable of stripping of multiple wounds at once.

Things look a lot less desperate when your baseline troop is miles better than their xenos counterparts. But nice try.

Marines *should* be better than xenos counterparts. However, the tabletop isn't a good reflection of what the lore is - realistically, you'd have one squad of Intercessors/Tacticals, and the rest of the army is guardsmen as far as the eye can see.

If the Imperium was a single army book, Space Marines would be an Elites choice comparatively.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The fundamental essence of the setting, the "humanity barely getting by, even after doing brutal and horrific things" is very much alive and well.

I think this is both true and false, because GW has a serious problem with telling versus showing.

We are told that the Imperium is in its most desperate hour, beset on all sides by numerous foes, and crippled by being split in two, with the Imperium Nihilus in the process of crumbling away.

We are shown new Primaris reinforcements coming to newly-awakened Guilliman's aid so that he can beat back the Imperium's foes, and major events/campaigns are either a win for the Imperium or at worst a draw. From a tabletop perspective there is nothing to suggest that the Imperium is any worse off. No units or technologies are more restricted as the means for their replenishment is lost in Nihilus. Imperial Guard aren't any worse off for the loss of Cadia. Cawl is pulling new inventions out from under his hat to make Space Marines more technologically advanced and lethal than ever. If you're an Imperium player things are pretty good.

I've also noticed more players seeing Space Marines and the Imperium as unironically good guys or at least justified in their actions, in large part because Space Marines are depicted less as fascist child-soldier enforcers of a genocidal ethno-state, and more ye knights of olde valiantly fighting evil monsters.

The grimdark is still there, buried in the reference materials and codices. But it certainly isn't at the forefront.

 catbarf wrote:

I've also noticed more players seeing Space Marines and the Imperium as unironically good guys or at least justified in their actions, in large part because Space Marines are depicted less as fascist child-soldier enforcers of a genocidal ethno-state, and more ye knights of olde valiantly fighting evil monsters..

Actually I'd argue that marines have ALWAYS looked like knights of olde valiantly fighting evil xenos monsters.
The whole "child soldier enforcers" is only developed and really seen through the lore and stories. Heck there's marines harvesting children from one of the Necromunda worlds in one of the new Inferno books - mostly by slaughtering everyone around them. So that part is VERY much still present.

It's just in the background books that most people don't read now and didn't read back then.

Marines and Imperials have always appeared "good" within the setting even way back in the 90s and before. They are protecting humanity and humans readily identify with humans thus protecting humans is "good". Considering that all the other races are out to kill humans that makes it pretty easy. The only way Marines could really be seen as evil would be if GW created an entirely new 100% human faction that wasn't Imperial nor Chaos and which had modern ideals and ethics and then pitted them against Marines. Without changing any lore the Imperium would fast seem "evil and dark".

Lore wise its pretty grim dark as usual.

Commercial wise GW is trying to appeal to a wider market and maintain and grow its market share.

 Overread wrote:
The only way Marines could really be seen as evil would be if GW created an entirely new 100% human faction that wasn't Imperial nor Chaos and which had modern ideals and ethics and then pitted them against Marines. Without changing any lore the Imperium would fast seem "evil and dark".

Aside from the 100% human requirement, that's pretty much exactly what the Tau were upon their introduction.

GW has since heavily walked that back by amping up the mind-control and darker themes for the Tau. Can't have it looking like the Imperium might not be the good guys, after all.

40K has always had noblebright elements. But they mainly serve to provide contrast and are not major forces.

They sometimes fall for the trap of setting up something nice simply to destroy it to show how bad the setting is, but its a tired trope and GW do not overuse it.

GW however are getting visibly darker.
The recent Sisters rerelease is grimdark BDSM now in plastic. The horror of the Imperium's Ecclesiarcy was never far from the surface, and nothing is new, but the new models reemphasise it with new different levels of penitent engine to choose from, complete with very detailed torture victim.

I remember a conversation with someone senior in GW who recalled GW corporates disapproval of the Dark Elves, now this was turn of century, pre Kirby etc. GW corporate saw this as a toy company in a new increasingly politically correct world and were horrified on reading about some of the factions. They wanted to tone down the Dark Elves in particular, studio dug their heels in. 'These are not nice people'. Yes they are models or sexist Nazis, but that is the point.
GW has never been into cheesecake, but goes a lot further than many games companies who are. I have to respect them for that. Infinity, Warmachine etc all use cheesecake, armour values for females are not corresponding to what they wear. Lots of skimpies running around in a bland asexual setting. Gw is the direct opposite, it delves deep into the torture porn but leaves it firmly in the background. Even when it is presented frontally such as with Witch Elves and Sisters Repentia its a subset of the whole and not highlighted in any way above the mainstream of the factions focus.
When you mix the horrors grimdark and both genders properly you will reach sexual exploitation sooner or later. Gw doesn't shy away from that, models it frontally but presents it as background. They know exactly what they are doing. The Sisters release went very far down the rabbit hole and few people noticed because it was wrapped up in grimdark and not cheesecake. I find that a perfect example of why grimdark is here to stay, they are so good at it you dont notice anymore.

If you think the game is getting less grimdark, your should try reading something in your codex other than the datasheets. I have the 8th ed codices for Necrons, GSC, and Sisters of Battle, all of which do an excellent job of painting the dire straights humanity is currently in.

Lammia wrote:
No.

Have they added lighter/hopeful elements to the story? Yeah, but hope wasn't locked in the box because it's a good thing...

Excellent reference. Well done.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
1W is more grimdark than 2W. Just sayin.

Yeah, curse those Space Marine Captains and Company Commanders with their 3 Wounds.

2W would only be an issue if there weren't a system which was capable of stripping of multiple wounds at once.

Things look a lot less desperate when your baseline troop is miles better than their xenos counterparts. But nice try.

Marines *should* be better than xenos counterparts. However, the tabletop isn't a good reflection of what the lore is - realistically, you'd have one squad of Intercessors/Tacticals, and the rest of the army is guardsmen as far as the eye can see.

If the Imperium was a single army book, Space Marines would be an Elites choice comparatively.

How much better? Because now they're well beyond Necron Warriors, Dire Avengers, Striking Scorpions, etc. That's a problem. The core units of even elite xenos races are far below Intercessors. Chaos Space Marines as well and that's even more poignant. The historical parity has been thrown under the bus, and it's bad for the imagery.

The flavor of their eliteness has also changed into a frankly dumber version. What was once a focus on discipline (ATSKNF) has now become primarily (and much more simple-minded) "moar bigger." It's a degradation.

It might appear to be less grim dark if your knowledge of the current lore is lacking.

Things are worse and more twisted than they've ever been.

Model wise the answer is still no. Sisters are testament to this.

 Ishagu wrote:
It might appear to be less from dark if your knowledge of the lore is lacking.

Things are worse and more twisted than they've ever been.

Appearance is a big part of the product. Lore can still be dark, while the appearance is less so. It's a big thing for a product that is so reliant on imagery.