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Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 FrozenDwarf wrote:

As for traitor mutations, i dont know enugh about traitor rules and lore, but i would say for the time beeing, mutations should be allowed for anyone, as there is no "official" mutation addon pack that people can get. 3D printers solves this issue, but not many has access to one. If we one day do get a mutations kit pack from FW, i would then say that mutation rules would only be allowed for the correct visual representation.


There's flavor text in the Traitor book to the effect of "these mutations weren't always outwardly visible" to indicate that you don't have to change anything on your model to represent your mutations. That makes sense because I'm not always going to run them, or run the same mutations on the same titans every single game. I would be really upset if some rules lawyer prevented me from using my list because I didn't visually represent a mutation.
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut






@Crablezworth:

See, I simply have to disagree with your entire take on the topic of mutations.

Loyalists vs. traitors isn't a hard faction lock like something, say, Space Marines vs. Eldar would be in terms of what people get. The army is the same for all titan legions, just specialized in a different manner depending on what the player wants to go for. The mutations aren't a free +1 bonus that just makes a traitor force stronger than any given loyalist force, but a choice with pros and cons. Of course having the access to a wider range of options is something of an advantage by itself, but there's nothing busted in it as such when the other side is given enough stuff as a baseline as well. There's plenty of little knickknacks and combinations with strats, legios, maniples and upgrades for any loyalist group already to have more possibilities than they as a player are going to get through in many years, so until proven otherwise, I cannot really see the situation being unbearable for anyone.

It's not a situation where some have food and some starve. Both sides have access to everything they need to survive happily, except one side has party drugs on top. Some players don't want them anyway, some are ready to take the associated penalties and go for them. Both are still adequately fed anyway.

Likewise, paint ain't rules and people like your buddy are entirely within their rights to play with any legio rules they desire any given day. Painting your stuff as Fureans doesn't prevent you from ever playing anything else, even less be ever used as a bludgeoning tool to say someone else couldn't switch what they want to try from time to time. As long as it's clear on the tabletop (for example, only use same legio rules for similarly painted models out and so on) what is what, it's game on. If the player wants to only play with their particular rules because they really like the fluff or mechanics behind them, all power to them as well. As for the cognitive dissonance this causes for some people, think of it like this: the legios are large organisations with a varied cast of personnel and machinery, so there's bound to be variation between maniples. Sometimes you have a more level-headed group of veterans in a Fureans group (using Astorum rules) or a hot-headed leader with a taste for melee in a Solaria group (running with Vulpa rules) and so on. All of this is fine, as long as it is communicated clearly. Custom traits, mutations and stratagems can be re-contextualised trivially to allow the players test out ideas and mechanics they find interesting and I encourage that to the fullest.

#ConvertEverything blog with loyalist Death Guard in true and Epic scales. Also Titans and killer robots! C&C welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717557.page 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 Toofast wrote:
 FrozenDwarf wrote:

As for traitor mutations, i dont know enugh about traitor rules and lore, but i would say for the time beeing, mutations should be allowed for anyone, as there is no "official" mutation addon pack that people can get. 3D printers solves this issue, but not many has access to one. If we one day do get a mutations kit pack from FW, i would then say that mutation rules would only be allowed for the correct visual representation.


There's flavor text in the Traitor book to the effect of "these mutations weren't always outwardly visible" to indicate that you don't have to change anything on your model to represent your mutations. That makes sense because I'm not always going to run them, or run the same mutations on the same titans every single game. I would be really upset if some rules lawyer prevented me from using my list because I didn't visually represent a mutation.



Agreed but systems without limits have problems. I'm not going to tell you I have a solution, but could certainly see the need for one. I think it's fair to not want others to dictate how you play, but this is indeed the problem we're face with, with such an expansive rules set for matched play and very few limitations. But it is a bit rich to show up to a game with custom legio, mutations 2 acastus and a titan of legend and say anyone taking the slightest issue, well, it's on my opponents.

This is the problem gw has with maintaining matched play, they keep expanding the buffet with no limits and are then shocked people walk back to their tables carrying a whole steam tray.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sherrypie wrote:
@Crablezworth:

See, I simply have to disagree with your entire take on the topic of mutations.

Loyalists vs. traitors isn't a hard faction lock like something, say, Space Marines vs. Eldar would be in terms of what people get. The army is the same for all titan legions, just specialized in a different manner depending on what the player wants to go for.


But that's the problem fren, you're literally saying everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others. Custom legios + mutations, simply puts traitors ahead of loyalists. I don't think a psi titan that's never in stock is really a balancer there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sherrypie wrote:
@Crablezworth:

The mutations aren't a free +1 bonus that just makes a traitor force stronger than any given loyalist force, but a choice with pros and cons. Of course having the access to a wider range of options is something of an advantage by itself, but there's nothing busted in it as such when the other side is given enough stuff as a baseline as well.


Again, saying everyone is equal, but also traitors get more and that's ok. That's literally an objective imbalance at face value, without even getting into the millions of combinations gw didn't consider either way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sherrypie wrote:
@Crablezworth:

I cannot really see the situation being unbearable for anyone.



I can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sherrypie wrote:
@Crablezworth:

It's not a situation where some have food and some starve. Both sides have access to everything they need to survive happily, except one side has party drugs on top. Some players don't want them anyway, some are ready to take the associated penalties and go for them. Both are still adequately fed anyway.


I disagree, an imbalance is an imbalance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sherrypie wrote:
@Crablezworth:

Painting your stuff as Fureans doesn't prevent you from ever playing anything else, even less be ever used as a bludgeoning tool to say someone else couldn't switch what they want to try from time to time.


It is seen as a limit for him though, something he's not willing to do. This is with me not even simply being ok with him trying custom legios but actively encouraging it. It's also because fureans have fantastic rules.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sherrypie wrote:
@Crablezworth:

As long as it's clear on the tabletop (for example, only use same legio rules for similarly painted models out and so on) what is what, it's game on. If the player wants to only play with their particular rules because they really like the fluff or mechanics behind them, all power to them as well.


Those two things can be in direct conflict, simply put what some players WANT to do can directly come at the cost clarity on the tabletop. I guess we wall want WYSWYG for weapons, we want our opponents to actually own and display the weapons their titans wield. I'd love people to consider the same modularity for upgrades and mutations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sherrypie wrote:
@Crablezworth:

As for the cognitive dissonance this causes for some people, think of it like this: the legios are large organisations with a varied cast of personnel and machinery, so there's bound to be variation between maniples. Sometimes you have a more level-headed group of veterans in a Fureans group (using Astorum rules) or a hot-headed leader with a taste for melee in a Solaria group (running with Vulpa rules) and so on. All of this is fine, as long as it is communicated clearly. Custom traits, mutations and stratagems can be re-contextualised trivially to allow the players test out ideas and mechanics they find interesting and I encourage that to the fullest.


Well it just seems the game is getting too cumbersome and matched play needs some work, we can all hope to "do whatever we want" except for the fact that entails also finding a like minded opponent, something rendered difficult by the popularity of the game in some areas, but also rendered difficult by the imbalances possible by being too permissive. Plenty of the mutations downsides can be mitigated by maniple rules alone. then add custom legio rules.

Anyway, matched play is in trouble and its difficult to have a tactics discussion without a real contained context, hell this game was box check enough with the fact that destructible terrain is an optional rule, let alone the fact that the matched play scenario is terrible and few actually play it, many using the engine war cards instead. There's not even a baseline game, really.

I still remember the marketing tagline for the engine war cards was "no two games ever need be the same again" or something along those lines, and really, that's kinda AT's core problem for me. Matched play really needs to be one thing. No point discussing stuff if everyone's own special little context is being compared like its a baseline of much of anything, my context is no different I guess.






Anyway, if we can find a specific topic we can all speculate on, armigers.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/15/run-rings-around-towering-god-engines-in-adeptus-titanicus-with-these-cute-but-scrappy-knights/

Assuming what's been previewed are two different units and for the sake of it, assuming the banner size is min 3, what are people's thoughts?

I'd say the weapons previewed aren't terrible, I definitely prefer the thermal spear



The lightning lock is ok, at least 14 range when you move 11 inches is something





I think the most interesting consideration tactically is their size opens up their ability to be quite hidden by terrain features that likely would not fully block los to larger knights. So right there without knowing their stats or seeing their terminal opens up some potential. It's likely fair to assume that as with most knights they probably can't take much shooting. I'd also assume the mechanicum ones may have auto simulacra or a better ion save. I'm wondering if the normal armigers meltagun factors in at all, like a re-roll or extra dice or something. Also interesting to see the cc profile for the moirax's claw and the armigers chainsword arm. But ya, the size really is interesting, a 1x1x1 civitas building block can seemingly conceal them entirely.



Hopefully their point cost puts them close to the cost of a couple styrix or less.

If it's possible to take 3 with thermal lance and ccw I'd think it's quite viable to try and dart them from solid los blocking cover to cover. Could also be an interesting objective grabber or backfield objective holder if they're small enough for your opponent to forget about them for a turn or two.



This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2021/11/18 21:17:24


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Crablezworth wrote:
 Toofast wrote:
 FrozenDwarf wrote:

As for traitor mutations, i dont know enugh about traitor rules and lore, but i would say for the time beeing, mutations should be allowed for anyone, as there is no "official" mutation addon pack that people can get. 3D printers solves this issue, but not many has access to one. If we one day do get a mutations kit pack from FW, i would then say that mutation rules would only be allowed for the correct visual representation.


There's flavor text in the Traitor book to the effect of "these mutations weren't always outwardly visible" to indicate that you don't have to change anything on your model to represent your mutations. That makes sense because I'm not always going to run them, or run the same mutations on the same titans every single game. I would be really upset if some rules lawyer prevented me from using my list because I didn't visually represent a mutation.



Agreed but systems without limits have problems. I'm not going to tell you I have a solution, but could certainly see the need for one. I think it's fair to not want others to dictate how you play, but this is indeed the problem we're face with, with such an expansive rules set for matched play and very few limitations. But it is a bit rich to show up to a game with custom legio, mutations 2 acastus and a titan of legend and say anyone taking the slightest issue, well, it's on my opponents.

This is the problem gw has with maintaining matched play, they keep expanding the buffet with no limits and are then shocked people walk back to their tables carrying a whole steam tray.


Again, beyond the Acastoi being too cheap, exactly what is wrong with such a setup? It isn't any more powerful than a properly thought named legio force that can do strong rules just as well (like Astorum or Fureans, for example). Most titans of legend aren't much to write home about either.

Sorry Crablez, while I appreciate your concerns and activity in talking about them, a lot of this simply reads as unwillingness to let others enjoy their take on the game.


 Crablezworth wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:
@Crablezworth:

See, I simply have to disagree with your entire take on the topic of mutations.

Loyalists vs. traitors isn't a hard faction lock like something, say, Space Marines vs. Eldar would be in terms of what people get. The army is the same for all titan legions, just specialized in a different manner depending on what the player wants to go for.


But that's the problem fren, you're literally saying everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others. Custom legios + mutations, simply puts traitors ahead of loyalists. I don't think a psi titan that's never in stock is really a balancer there.


No, it just differentiates the army composition a bit. Unless it turns out that upgrading your stuff with mutations is always beneficial in comparison to just taking more bodies and wargear (which I highly doubt), it doesn't make the Loyalist side mystically unplayable. If you look at most games in existence that allow for army building, they tend to have options for going with more bodies or more elite forces. Playing a heavily mutated force of less models is that elite army comp, which by itself is merely different and while individually made of stronger stuff, it doesn't necessarily do as well in various scenarios and mission parametres. Let me come back to that in a bit.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:
@Crablezworth:

The mutations aren't a free +1 bonus that just makes a traitor force stronger than any given loyalist force, but a choice with pros and cons. Of course having the access to a wider range of options is something of an advantage by itself, but there's nothing busted in it as such when the other side is given enough stuff as a baseline as well.


Again, saying everyone is equal, but also traitors get more and that's ok. That's literally an objective imbalance at face value, without even getting into the millions of combinations gw didn't consider either way.


No, the Traitors get different things. Traitors having mutations and chaos powers is pretty much a given in a Warhammer game, that's like one of the core tenets of the universe. Loyalists are the baseline, Chaos infused loonies are a variation on that theme which is done by giving something and taking something, in this case altering the very core of how their command and machine behaviour dynamics work. Unless you really want there to be no traitor / loyalist difference in any way, that is a legit distinction between the forces given how damn important reliability is in this game.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:
@Crablezworth:

It's not a situation where some have food and some starve. Both sides have access to everything they need to survive happily, except one side has party drugs on top. Some players don't want them anyway, some are ready to take the associated penalties and go for them. Both are still adequately fed anyway.


I disagree, an imbalance is an imbalance.


Again, unless you want there to be no distinction at all, then there is an inevitable imbalance of sorts at any moment. Thus far only loyalists have had access to Psi-Titans and Vortex Missiles and the sky hasn't fallen nor has everyone only ever played Loyalists. It's not falling when Traitors gain access to mutations, either. To reiterate: the baseline of the armies is good enough that even a group without any legio rules can play the game, much less without any mutation shenanigans. Unless we experimentally see through extensive gameplay that the mutations get oppressive as hell, I'll have to disagree with your concerns on this.


 Crablezworth wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:
@Crablezworth:

Painting your stuff as Fureans doesn't prevent you from ever playing anything else, even less be ever used as a bludgeoning tool to say someone else couldn't switch what they want to try from time to time.


It is seen as a limit for him though, something he's not willing to do. This is with me not even simply being ok with him trying custom legios but actively encouraging it. It's also because fureans have fantastic rules.



So? That's up to them and a self-imposed limit they are running with and not a systemic problem. If they only want to run one set of rules and are happy with those, they still don't get a moral right to dictate others shouldn't be able to tinker with the system's more extensive offerings. Isn't the access to various mutations without extensive conversion work required in this instance just a bonus for their experience, as well, since they get to try out more combinations if they'd like to without stepping outside their chosen legio4lyfe?


 Crablezworth wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:
@Crablezworth:

As long as it's clear on the tabletop (for example, only use same legio rules for similarly painted models out and so on) what is what, it's game on. If the player wants to only play with their particular rules because they really like the fluff or mechanics behind them, all power to them as well.


Those two things can be in direct conflict, simply put what some players WANT to do can directly come at the cost clarity on the tabletop. I guess we wall want WYSWYG for weapons, we want our opponents to actually own and display the weapons their titans wield. I'd love people to consider the same modularity for upgrades and mutations.


Which will probably come with time, after people get a read on the possibilities and get inspired to create their own stuff. On the practical side, though, I personally won't get too flustered about anyone running a pile of under-the-hood upgrades which is the norm for most miniature games anyway. As has been discussed with many less macro-level upgrades, it is unreasonable to demand physical representation on every little thing like Bastion Shielding or Frozen Soul, while it's cool for people to do so.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:
@Crablezworth:

As for the cognitive dissonance this causes for some people, think of it like this: the legios are large organisations with a varied cast of personnel and machinery, so there's bound to be variation between maniples. Sometimes you have a more level-headed group of veterans in a Fureans group (using Astorum rules) or a hot-headed leader with a taste for melee in a Solaria group (running with Vulpa rules) and so on. All of this is fine, as long as it is communicated clearly. Custom traits, mutations and stratagems can be re-contextualised trivially to allow the players test out ideas and mechanics they find interesting and I encourage that to the fullest.


Well it just seems the game is getting too cumbersome and matched play needs some work, we can all hope to "do whatever we want" except for the fact that entails also finding a like minded opponent, something rendered difficult by the popularity of the game in some areas, but also rendered difficult by the imbalances possible by being too permissive. Plenty of the mutations downsides can be mitigated by maniple rules alone. then add custom legio rules.

Anyway, matched play is in trouble and its difficult to have a tactics discussion without a real contained context, hell this game was box check enough with the fact that destructible terrain is an optional rule, let alone the fact that the matched play scenario is terrible and few actually play it, many using the engine war cards instead. There's not even a baseline game, really.

I still remember the marketing tagline for the engine war cards was "no two games ever need be the same again" or something along those lines, and really, that's kinda AT's core problem for me. Matched play really needs to be one thing. No point discussing stuff if everyone's own special little context is being compared like its a baseline of much of anything, my context is no different I guess.


Correction: you feel that the matched scenario is terrible. This is not a factual statement, but biased by your desire to have mirrored objectives instead of inbuilt asymmetry, while many players myself included absolutely want asymmetry in games (as a quick aside, the only basic problem in the default Matched scenario is the scaling in Engage and Destroy which should be just tied to 0-20 VP's in accordance with the percentage destroyed like the other objectives have). In my eyes, this is a strength for the system as it forces the players to actually own their enjoyment instead of degenerating to the lowest common settings to the exclusion of other possibilities, like you so often see in bigger games like 40k.

I reject the notion that you couldn't have relevant tactical discussions in this environment. Hell, I'd even go as far as to say it's exactly the other way round. When you confine matched play into something well-defined, cut and dry, you lose a good portion of the interesting tactical debate to be had by forcing the situation towards a more well-trodden path of pre-game planning (see any 40k sub-forum, where it's mostly about lists and math hammer because the individual mission setups are known factors). There is an intellectual challenge to be cracked there as well, certainly, but it's more on the strategic level than going for the tactical "what-ifs" that are in more abundant supply in a system that throws actually varied games in front of you. "Okay, I brought a heavy engine list but the mission demands advancing while the enemy is attempting a breakthrough. How do I deal with this?" is far, far more interesting of a puzzle to me in the real sense of tactics than optimizing for a known quantity. One can then debate the merits of list composition in regards to possible scenarios they might encounter, moves to take on the field to counter alleged optimal moves by the enemy on particular objectives and so on. I welcome this debate on actual tactics as encountered by the field commanders, which less than surprisingly is also what military academies do.

As to the maniples mitigating the mutation drawbacks... well, yeah? That's another choice that will in turn restrict their effectiveness to some game plan instead of another power-up. No Ferrox or Extermigus for you, if you want to use that slot on coping with your penalties. The Command oriented maniples aren't usually too flexible on what they give you and even Axiom's power still does nothing for the minus incurred.

If it turns out that the mutations completely wreck the game, I will of course change my mind on this and ask for restrictions on them. As it stands, I simply cannot see that happening. Pimping your engines with costly upgrades isn't a winning strategy in most cases, nor is hampering their reliability, so I highly doubt we'll have any big troubles at hand here.





#ConvertEverything blog with loyalist Death Guard in true and Epic scales. Also Titans and killer robots! C&C welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717557.page 
   
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Hi, I have another rule question :-)

What do you think, is it possible to combine the following Stratagems from Defense of Ryza?

Power reserves
Reactor surge

My first impulse was: no, because a reactor roll seems to be necessary for the Reactor Surge. But with power reserves, the result "counts as a blank", so I'm not sure.

What do you all mean?

Many greetings

Alex
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut






habedekrai37 wrote:
Hi, I have another rule question :-)

What do you think, is it possible to combine the following Stratagems from Defense of Ryza?

Power reserves
Reactor surge

My first impulse was: no, because a reactor roll seems to be necessary for the Reactor Surge. But with power reserves, the result "counts as a blank", so I'm not sure.

What do you all mean?

Many greetings

Alex


They do not combine, since they do not interact in any way nor are they used at the same time in the first place.

Power Reserves can be used whenever you are Pushing. So when you want more movement, turns, shield rerolls, weapons that Drain etc. In such a case you can just use it to say "I got a blank" instead of rolling.

Reactor Surge is used instead of your normal Combat phase activation and doesn't have any Pushing involved. You simply choose how many pips you want to advance your reactor track and repair as many pips on the shield track. No dice rolling is involved if rules simply instruct you to advance the reactor tracker or increase your heat in some other wording. Only Pushing or explicit command to roll the Reactor die involve rolling.

#ConvertEverything blog with loyalist Death Guard in true and Epic scales. Also Titans and killer robots! C&C welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717557.page 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




 Sherrypie wrote:
habedekrai37 wrote:
Hi, I have another rule question :-)

What do you think, is it possible to combine the following Stratagems from Defense of Ryza?

Power reserves
Reactor surge

My first impulse was: no, because a reactor roll seems to be necessary for the Reactor Surge. But with power reserves, the result "counts as a blank", so I'm not sure.

What do you all mean?

Many greetings

Alex


They do not combine, since they do not interact in any way nor are they used at the same time in the first place.

Power Reserves can be used whenever you are Pushing. So when you want more movement, turns, shield rerolls, weapons that Drain etc. In such a case you can just use it to say "I got a blank" instead of rolling.

Reactor Surge is used instead of your normal Combat phase activation and doesn't have any Pushing involved. You simply choose how many pips you want to advance your reactor track and repair as many pips on the shield track. No dice rolling is involved if rules simply instruct you to advance the reactor tracker or increase your heat in some other wording. Only Pushing or explicit command to roll the Reactor die involve rolling.



I'm sorry, but we're talking about two different stratagems:

"Reactor Surge (1)

Play this Stratagem when a friendly Titan from this Crusade Legio pushes their reactor, before rolling the Reactor dice. For the remainder of the phase, (...)"

there is nothing about the combat phase or shields

   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut






habedekrai37 wrote:
 Sherrypie wrote:
habedekrai37 wrote:
Hi, I have another rule question :-)

What do you think, is it possible to combine the following Stratagems from Defense of Ryza?

Power reserves
Reactor surge

My first impulse was: no, because a reactor roll seems to be necessary for the Reactor Surge. But with power reserves, the result "counts as a blank", so I'm not sure.

What do you all mean?

Many greetings

Alex


They do not combine, since they do not interact in any way nor are they used at the same time in the first place.

Power Reserves can be used whenever you are Pushing. So when you want more movement, turns, shield rerolls, weapons that Drain etc. In such a case you can just use it to say "I got a blank" instead of rolling.

Reactor Surge is used instead of your normal Combat phase activation and doesn't have any Pushing involved. You simply choose how many pips you want to advance your reactor track and repair as many pips on the shield track. No dice rolling is involved if rules simply instruct you to advance the reactor tracker or increase your heat in some other wording. Only Pushing or explicit command to roll the Reactor die involve rolling.



I'm sorry, but we're talking about two different stratagems:

"Reactor Surge (1)

Play this Stratagem when a friendly Titan from this Crusade Legio pushes their reactor, before rolling the Reactor dice. For the remainder of the phase, (...)"

there is nothing about the combat phase or shields



Ah bloody hell, the book does indeed have two strats named Reactor Surge (one on page 97 for custom legios and one on 107 for everyone, doing completely different things)

So, with the custom strats it should work. You're spending half of your legio slots on that one turn trick, albeit a good trick that gives you plenty of reliability that time.
Mechanically it's not forbidden to play stratagems interleaved if their triggers align, so:

1) Decide to push.
2) Before rolling, as triggered, play Reactor Surge and Power Reserves.
3) Instead of rolling, use Power Reserves to substitute a blank instead.
4) Profit.


#ConvertEverything blog with loyalist Death Guard in true and Epic scales. Also Titans and killer robots! C&C welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717557.page 
   
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oh how crazy, how stupid. I wouldn't have thought of that either ...

Thank you again, yes, I don't think the trick is OP either, but certainly not bad in the right situation.

The background is: I want to assemble a legion for a combat group, with Reavers and Warhounds, no Warlords. Focus: 2 Melee-Reaver.

Or do you have any other tips on which traits and / or stratagems from Ryza you could take?
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




Hi gyus,

I m looking for some tactical advice... I'm currently playing Loyalists (Praesagius), my Legion is focused on Warlords and Warhounds.

For my Traitor Legion, I'd like to focus on Reavers, but with them I don't have any experience.

The goal is 1500 points. The basis should be two melee reavers, I've considered Laniaskara as legion and Corsair as Manipel. How would you go on? An additional Reaver is clear, but how to equip? And how to expand? A fourth Reaver would be possible and maybe borrow Knights, or a supporting Warlord...

Regards

Alex
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





For 1,500 points I'd go for a Corsair-trio of Reavers and a supporting Warbringer. Then spend the rest of the points on wargear.

Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

For the cc reavers, usually best to do 1 cc weapon instead of 2, reason being that you only get to use both cc weapons in the combat phase, when you do a charge order in the movement phase you're capped at one of the two cc weapons. Also, first is interesting but can lead to losing control of the situation like knocking your target away from you limiting your ability to double down and put the killing blows on them in the combat phase, there's also a chance if youre target is a larger titan like reaver and up, their oval base might rotate and smack into yours from a powerfist hit so thy can be a bit unwieldly at times. Chainfist is generally better in so much as you can guarantee to at least not have weird physical outcomes like your opponent's titan getting knocked out of cc range or worse sending it spinning into your titan.

Good close up loud out chainfist, melta and vmb up top. Long to mid range is tougher, the volcano cannons have great range but can be a bit underwhelming sometimes but tend to do well when they double hit. Missiles are great long range just like on warlord. Laser blaster is decent, turbo laser up top too is cool, you can do all laser if you want a tonne of S8. Gatling blaster is decent and pairs well with melta on the othe arm. Warp missile is interesting with mutations.

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Thank you very much, of course there are other aspects, great! I've also thought about more activation points (Titan Hunter- Stratagem, Knights) to safely get into melee combat and make it hard for the enemy to run away... What do you think?
   
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habedekrai37 wrote:

Thank you very much, of course there are other aspects, great! I've also thought about more activation points (Titan Hunter- Stratagem, Knights) to safely get into melee combat and make it hard for the enemy to run away... What do you think?


Combat is tough, but very strong. The problem is it will always have more hurdles to overcome than shooting, and it because of the proximity, even if you do well in close combat, sometime your opponent's titan goes nuclear. Where as if you're killing engines at range it less likely a risk the further away you are when they go boom. If you're sold on making combat work, there are some mutations that can help.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/17 14:42:32


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Yes, it's risky, that's true, but it can also be funny the other way around: Recently, a melee reaver ran into my Regia bubble... he didn't destroy anything himself, but took a WL and 2 WH with him to his death...
   
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Laniaskara is very fun, I've enjoyed their aggressive nature a fair bit on the field.

If you're not dead set against using Warhounds, I'd go for a Ferrox maniple with two melee Reavers flanked by shooty Warhounds. Laniaskara's free push can get some of the Hounds reliably up the field to prep the scene for the Reaver charges and mop up damaged engines in a flanking manoeuvre. With Ferrox's +1 to Armour Rolls, you can reliably use chainfists and danger-close Hounds to strike hard while dodging under the opposition's big guns.

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Be interesting to see what happens when you swap a Ferox war hound for a Dire Wolf.

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 Mr_Rose wrote:
Be interesting to see what happens when you swap a Ferox war hound for a Dire Wolf.


Sounds fun.

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For the most part, not much I'd wager. They are best used from reasonably afar to support shooty forces with opportunistic shield collapses and synergize with none of Ferrox's strengths. Venator maniples are a much juicier opportunity, along many others.

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 Sherrypie wrote:
For the most part, not much I'd wager. They are best used from reasonably afar to support shooty forces with opportunistic shield collapses and synergize with none of Ferrox's strengths. Venator maniples are a much juicier opportunity, along many others.


I dunno that +1 for both primary weapons within 30 makes me think they're best used within 30 and hopefully on the flanks of their target either way.

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 Crablezworth wrote:
 Sherrypie wrote:
For the most part, not much I'd wager. They are best used from reasonably afar to support shooty forces with opportunistic shield collapses and synergize with none of Ferrox's strengths. Venator maniples are a much juicier opportunity, along many others.


I dunno that +1 for both primary weapons within 30 makes me think they're best used within 30 and hopefully on the flanks of their target either way.


Within 30" describes pretty much every Warhound imaginable, as well as being most of the usual tables' length. With Ferrox we're talking about routinely dancing within 10" of the enemy, where the Dire Wolf would just be a juicy pinjata instead of a lurking hunter that it ought to be. If the Wolf is further than that, it's not worth it to swap it in the maniple to gain bonuses it's not going to use. In a very small game, sure why not, but it's not any great synergy to do so.

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The question is not what the Ferrox does for the Dire Wolf, but what it does for the Warhounds.

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 gorgon wrote:
The question is not what the Ferrox does for the Dire Wolf, but what it does for the Warhounds.


Ya I mean you may as well take it in the place of the optional third hound rather than aux simply because a bonus rule it may not make use of is better than nothing.


I quite like how they came up with how they fit into maniples while also being aux without having to write any new maniples. Genuinely impressed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sherrypie wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
 Sherrypie wrote:
For the most part, not much I'd wager. They are best used from reasonably afar to support shooty forces with opportunistic shield collapses and synergize with none of Ferrox's strengths. Venator maniples are a much juicier opportunity, along many others.


I dunno that +1 for both primary weapons within 30 makes me think they're best used within 30 and hopefully on the flanks of their target either way.


Within 30" describes pretty much every Warhound imaginable, as well as being most of the usual tables' length. With Ferrox we're talking about routinely dancing within 10" of the enemy, where the Dire Wolf would just be a juicy pinjata instead of a lurking hunter that it ought to be. If the Wolf is further than that, it's not worth it to swap it in the maniple to gain bonuses it's not going to use. In a very small game, sure why not, but it's not any great synergy to do so.


I feel like it's more just like if you're used to running ferrox and just finished a dire wolf it's worth it in the third hound slot over aux. Also imagine someone who has moslty the starter box, that's a good foundation for ferrox (2 hounds, 2 reavers) so if someone just added a dire wolf it fits pretty well. There's def other maniples for it for sure.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/18 20:32:44


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 gorgon wrote:
The question is not what the Ferrox does for the Dire Wolf, but what it does for the Warhounds.


Ferrox is great for Warhounds, one of the best if you're willing to take it risky and run close to the enemy. My Ferrox Hounds regularly eat Warlords alive, given how hard and accurately they can hit combined with their relatively healthy activation economy as well. Never underestimate a well-timed Warhound charge either, with potential d3+4 attacks that hit on 3+ at Str 7(+1 Fer and often +1/+2 flanking).

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Ferrox getting unlocked for Audax players via the Dire Wolf is definitely a significant thing. Especially when the DW comes with the Stalker rule, no Canis maniple or Outflank required.

I'm looking at a Lupercal maniple paired with a Ferrox. That combo lacks the feth with your mind deployment qualities of the Canis, but the DW can still set up outside the deployment zone at interesting angles. With reinforced plating and some cover, it won't be a total pushover there. And I can still outflank a WH on top of that if I want another distraction.

What's gained is extra punch in close. Audax kinda has to operate in those close-ish ranges anyway. The Ember Wolves don't win by trading shots with bigger Titans at 20". They have to close and pounce.

Will have to give it a try, but the DW definitely feels like a solid bone being thrown to Audax beyond the Titan's own attributes.

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True, Audax are in a somewhat special place with it in that they can thus lighten up some previously forbidden maniples. Good catch.

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At first I started looking at it in terms of what I could do to maximize the DW. Put it in a Lupercal, do coordinated strikes, and that plus maybe side shot bonuses make the neutron laser scarier. While that's legitimate, I quickly came around to looking at the DW as the maximizer for my other stuff. At least for Audax.

I'll give it a go, anyway. Hopefully my DWs ship tomorrow, but my last FW purchase (Psi-Titan) took a few weeks to ship.

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Prolly has been posted in the news section, but dont hurt to have it in here either; the new FAQ

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/x1kCws4HqSQwI9YH.pdf

allso, today was released a new scenario: The Siege of Kado
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/ML74FAvcQvVjJLTj.pdf


This should keep us entertained for the summer

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/05/24 11:25:40


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Okay, it's only a special scenario, not an army list, but.....

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