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Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Sim-Life wrote:
Like all of this reads as "It doesn't affect me or fit my definition of exploitation because it's not extreme enough so I don't care".

Actually, he specifically asked you for your definition of exploitation that covers what GW is doing to you.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation




I love a good rail against capitalism but GW is probably the last place i would start, theyre making luxury toys.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 09:34:19


 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

 Jidmah wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Like all of this reads as "It doesn't affect me or fit my definition of exploitation because it's not extreme enough so I don't care".

Actually, he specifically asked you for your definition of exploitation that covers what GW is doing to you.


GW is exploiting FOMO with limited releases. That's all. It's not a major source of exploitation or a particularly big deal, just a kinda crummy business practice.


   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

 Sim-Life wrote:
Like all of this reads as "It doesn't affect me or fit my definition of exploitation because it's not extreme enough so I don't care".

Unless I'm sleepwalking to edit articles on Merriam Webster, it is not my definition of exploit that does not fit the topic at hand. Like the other guy with their "definition" of Early Access, you can't just make up meaning of words on the spot to fit your narrative.

I totally understand why you used the word "exploit". It sounds more dramatic and gives weight to your argument. It is still wrong, though.


Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Da Boss wrote:
The issue I have is that from our POV as customers the crappy business practices are just crappy. We don't have to consider whether it makes GW more profit, it it's not good for us then that's all that matters. GW doesn't care about us, we shouldn't care about GW either.

But also, I think deciding that you don't like a business and therefore refusing to give them your money and finding alternatives is always completely acceptable.


You're taking your subjective opinions and applying them to the entirety of a consumer base. Like any retail sale or promotional discount, it sucks if you miss out, GW isn't alone in this and I'm fairly sure you don't rage against every shop/brand that ever had a time/quantity limited discount.

Deciding you don't want to support a company is one thing but it's hard to say you support the game but would happily run the company making it into the ground, one doesn't exist without the other.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

I mean, yeah? I never said what I was writing was the objective truth. Definitely just my view on things. Sorry for using "we", but that's just also my opinion.

Also, please don't characterise what I'm doing as rage. I see this all the time on Dakkadakka, where any negative opinion is characterised in really extreme terms because it's much easier to argue against someone who is "raging" about something trivial. I'm not angry at all, I feel really chill about all of this. I'm just making the decision not to support this practice because I don't like it. And yeah, I do that with lots of companies. GW is nowhere near the top of the list of unethical companies that I don't want to support in their unethical practices. And I do that without feeling particularly angry about any of it - there's a lot of things I do feel angry about but they're generally not related to consumer choices. But this is a forum primarily about discussing GW games so I'll bring up any practice of theirs I like or dislike here because that's what this board is for, discussing their products. I'm not talking to anyone else in my life about this stuff because it's absolutely trivial.

As to game vs. company I just see it differently. If GW went bankrupt tomorrow we'd still be able to play the game, fan made versions would exist and most likely another company would buy out the IP and keep making the game. That's what usually happens in these cases. The current corporate structure of GW would go away but I am pretty confident that the IP would continue to be available for purchase if anyone wanted it to be, and if not, fan made versions would continue to exist.

Having said that, because apparently I need to be very careful not to have my arguments mischaracterised, I'm not really concerned about GW going bust in either direction. I don't worry about it. That's really up to them. If they make stuff I want at a price I find reasonable in a way I find acceptable or pleasant to purchase, I'll happily buy it. When they degrade my experience as a customer through making their product less valuable (changing the rules too often or having poor quality rules) or too expensive or make the process of purchasing stuff too annoying or manipulative, then I don't. At no time do I feel angry at GW, maybe mildly irritated that they are not a better company to interact with, but there's plenty of fish in the wargaming sea and this stuff is an utterly trivial luxury good so it's not worth getting angry about.

   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Da Boss wrote:
I mean, yeah? I never said what I was writing was the objective truth. Definitely just my view on things. Sorry for using "we", but that's just also my opinion.

Also, please don't characterise what I'm doing as rage. I see this all the time on Dakkadakka, where any negative opinion is characterised in really extreme terms because it's much easier to argue against someone who is "raging" about something trivial. I'm not angry at all, I feel really chill about all of this. I'm just making the decision not to support this practice because I don't like it. And yeah, I do that with lots of companies. GW is nowhere near the top of the list of unethical companies that I don't want to support in their unethical practices. And I do that without feeling particularly angry about any of it - there's a lot of things I do feel angry about but they're generally not related to consumer choices. But this is a forum primarily about discussing GW games so I'll bring up any practice of theirs I like or dislike here because that's what this board is for, discussing their products. I'm not talking to anyone else in my life about this stuff because it's absolutely trivial.

As to game vs. company I just see it differently. If GW went bankrupt tomorrow we'd still be able to play the game, fan made versions would exist and most likely another company would buy out the IP and keep making the game. That's what usually happens in these cases. The current corporate structure of GW would go away but I am pretty confident that the IP would continue to be available for purchase if anyone wanted it to be, and if not, fan made versions would continue to exist.

Having said that, because apparently I need to be very careful not to have my arguments mischaracterised, I'm not really concerned about GW going bust in either direction. I don't worry about it. That's really up to them. If they make stuff I want at a price I find reasonable in a way I find acceptable or pleasant to purchase, I'll happily buy it. When they degrade my experience as a customer through making their product less valuable (changing the rules too often or having poor quality rules) or too expensive or make the process of purchasing stuff too annoying or manipulative, then I don't. At no time do I feel angry at GW, maybe mildly irritated that they are not a better company to interact with, but there's plenty of fish in the wargaming sea and this stuff is an utterly trivial luxury good so it's not worth getting angry about.


Thank you for choosing to elaborate your stance, it seems more than reasonable and I hadn't assumed you to fall on the end of the "die company, die!" spectrum by any stretch, but they definitely exist out there while feverishly chasing the meta for some reason.

Some people definitely do take it all too seriously but I think we're just both fairly middle of the road customers with our own perspectives of value and that's good, this thread is far too heavily charged with the use of terms claiming exploitation etc though.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Sim-Life wrote:

But sure, you've decided that YOU'RE happy, so why try to improve anything for anyone else right?


Honestly?
1) Because that'll likely lead to me being UN-happy.
2) I'm lazy. And doing that'll definitely involve more work & effort.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






ccs wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:

But sure, you've decided that YOU'RE happy, so why try to improve anything for anyone else right?


Honestly?
1) Because that'll likely lead to me being UN-happy.
2) I'm lazy. And doing that'll definitely involve more work & effort.


3) There are companies performing actual evil acts and you are very likely buying and using their product as well. GW is probably one of the weirdest places to start an anti-capitalist crusade.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 11:16:31


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

It's not anticapitalism, it's just better capitalism. Discerning customers and competition improves outcomes for all of us. You can believe in capitalism and think anti-consumer policies are stupid.

Edit to add: Cheers Dudeface, I was a bit irritated because I'd been accused of being hysterical or raging for expressing mild worry or disapproval in a few threads recently so I was a bit oversensitive to it I suppose.

FWIW though I do consider FOMO marketing a mild form of exploitation. Not serious, definitely not something I feel should be legislated against or anything like that, but it's unpleasant for me and I don't like it, so I've made a conscious decision to avoid any FOMO based sets. If I find out something is a limited release I pretty much immediately cool on it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 11:46:37


   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I really hope GW gets some real competition. Competition leads to better outcomes for customers and wargames as a niche are plenty large enough to sustain multiple companies, GW wouldn't be destroyed as a company.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 kirotheavenger wrote:
I really hope GW gets some real competition. Competition leads to better outcomes for customers and wargames as a niche are plenty large enough to sustain multiple companies, GW wouldn't be destroyed as a company.


This is the best and real solution, I wish Mantic could up their game a little as they're maybe the best positioned to become the alternate GW in terms of scope of game and model range for analogues. but any company offering a similar product at a close quality at a close price will give them pause for thought. Especially if they are appropriate proxies.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Competing with 40k is the main thing, I hope the various Star Wars games can do it.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

It's pretty tough to outdo GW on the model front but any competitor needs to at least achieve a certain bar of quality. Mantic too often misses that bar with their stuff (and I have a lot of mantic stuff, but I'm pretty selective about what I pick).

I also think some of their offerings just aren't very creative? Space Skaven was something a lot of people said they wanted, but the implementation from Mantic was not what I wanted - just high tech cartoon rats in space wasn't what I imagined space skaven to be at all. I've seen better kitbashes here on dakka for that concept.

But there's a lot of competition in the tabletop wargame space at the moment. The choice available to consumers is awesome. It's one of the reasons I've been moving to more model agnostic games, so that I can pick and choose the coolest stuff available to make use of.

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






Beautiful. Great post.

And now we wait for someone to claim that buying citadel miniatures is the same as buying meth from a drug dealer.

Meth is more environmentally friendly than plastic toys probably

As for piracy, let's not forget that online distribution with regular sales and introduction of streaming services nearly stopped piracy for digital products. People will pay if they feel the product is worth paying for.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I find that most people don't actually mind how top-notch their models are, they want to play a fun game and if their infantry has slightly less crisp detailing they can look past that.

In fact the soft PVC Legion kits seem to be better received in by many over the more complex to assemble styrene kits.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I find that most people don't actually mind how top-notch their models are, they want to play a fun game and if their infantry has slightly less crisp detailing they can look past that.


It totally depends of customer base. I have a girl friend that is absolutely into tabletop games and she spends a ton of money in boxes. I'm full into the wargame camp. For her, fun and rules are above all, and even if she likes nice miniatures, she is used to a much lesser quality fo them. I don't. I mean, I also love good rules (I write rulesets as a hobby), but I'm much more into the visual aspect of the game, so if a boardgame is just full of tokens and cardboards, maybe I'll play it, but it is not my preference, and I'm much more willing to pay more for better miniatures (Thats why I bought creature casters demon prince of war to use as a daemon prince of khorne even if GW miniature is less than half the cost).

But is just a reality that cheaper but "nice enough" alternatives will always be more popular than end of the line products. For miniatures and for everything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 16:14:29


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

Da Boss wrote:It's possible to like aspects of 40K while disliking GW's business practices. There's no contradiction.

Some people can only see 1 or the other. Which is sad and only leads to further division in the community.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





But is just a reality that cheaper but "nice enough" alternatives will always be more popular than end of the line products

At some point you're hitting diminishing returns imo. There's only so much detail you can cram before it becomes a hassle to paint.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Jidmah wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:

But sure, you've decided that YOU'RE happy, so why try to improve anything for anyone else right?


Honestly?
1) Because that'll likely lead to me being UN-happy.
2) I'm lazy. And doing that'll definitely involve more work & effort.


3) There are companies performing actual evil acts and you are very likely buying and using their product as well. GW is probably one of the weirdest places to start an anti-capitalist crusade.


Agree. Whatever the sins of the oil companies I still have to put fuel in the car & farm vehicles. etc.
Any such effort I'd make will be directed towards something that's actually a real problem.
Crusading against a toy company with high prices offering extremely limited time/quantity deals that writes rules of questionable quality ? Not on my to do list. If they get too bad my answer is simple - "pass".
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





ccs wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:

But sure, you've decided that YOU'RE happy, so why try to improve anything for anyone else right?


Honestly?
1) Because that'll likely lead to me being UN-happy.
2) I'm lazy. And doing that'll definitely involve more work & effort.


3) There are companies performing actual evil acts and you are very likely buying and using their product as well. GW is probably one of the weirdest places to start an anti-capitalist crusade.


Agree. Whatever the sins of the oil companies I still have to put fuel in the car & farm vehicles. etc.
Any such effort I'd make will be directed towards something that's actually a real problem.
Crusading against a toy company with high prices offering extremely limited time/quantity deals that writes rules of questionable quality ? Not on my to do list. If they get too bad my answer is simple - "pass".


What can you realistically do again Exxon Mobil though? Again, the ENTIRE POINT of my initial post is that GW is small enough that enough people opting out of buying their stuff has an effect on them. Enough people left during 7th that the completely overhauled the game.


 
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







You can buy an electric car

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Sim-Life wrote:
What can you realistically do again Exxon Mobil though? Again, the ENTIRE POINT of my initial post is that GW is small enough that enough people opting out of buying their stuff has an effect on them. Enough people left during 7th that the completely overhauled the game.


Sorry, but GW and the 40k community isn't as small as you think. If you managed to get all of the people actively participating in only communities to not buy the box, it would still have been sold out by now.

Not to mention that vast parts of GW's customers probably don't know or care that the beast snagga box was up for preorder.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Y'all ever heard of the concept of "relative privation", and the fallacies thereof?

'Cause we're close.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
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