Switch Theme:

Will Boyz be competitive  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Poll
Will boyz be competitive
Yes
No

View results
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:


*sigh*

It's a math hammer failing to take a full KFF and apply it only to a single unit. That's not how it would work - especially not now that it covers far more ground. And you kind of just totally ran by the point that boyz are cost efficient enough that they don't need to 6++ to make up for what Snaggas have.

We've done enough math hammer so I won't bother diving into the rest. If one is willing they can construct whatever scenario they think proves their point.

I talked about Morale being a crushing nerf to Orkz. Your response was to just spend a boat load of CP on them to not run away...forgetting that its a once a game Strat and the new ork one which isn't a once a game strat inflicts the same dmg but gives you the privilege of spending CP to do it yourself.

I talked about how the KFF nerf was a big deal. Your response was that it covers more boyz with a smaller buff. I then pointed out that for the same price as a KFF big mek you could just upgrade 42.5 of those boyz to be Beast snaggas and also gain S5 as well as the 6+ as well as not having to daisy chain back to a useless character. Your response? it can cover more boyz....

Bud, your points aren't feasible in a real game. You aren't going to be daisy chaining mobz of 30 to a Big mek KFF anymore because you aren't going to want to take much more than MSU boyz thanks to the morale nerf. Even if you could, it would defeat the entire purpose of those boyz thanks to losing so much dmg in CC because you now have half the mob daisy chaining back to a useless big mek....all for hte benefit of a 6++ Invuln.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 14:55:45


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I don't know what to tell you.

You're constructing scenarios that don't apply to the real game and attempting to force cost considerations to a single group of boyz. That isn't real world.

We'll just have to see what pops out in the next few months.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 15:27:19


   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran




Vancouver, BC

SemperMortis wrote:
I talked about Morale being a crushing nerf to Orkz. Your response was to just spend a boat load of CP on them to not run away...forgetting that its a once a game Strat and the new ork one which isn't a once a game strat inflicts the same dmg but gives you the privilege of spending CP to do it yourself.

In what realistic scenario is an opponent going to put 6~ wounds into each of your 4 units of 30 boyz to let morale kill them off "efficiently"? In my experience, people tend to remove an entire unit (or near enough as to make little difference) or leave it untouched. Yes, there will be cases where you lose a few boyz to some leftover shooting and lose a few more to morale but that isn't what's going to make boyz unviable.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Canadian 5th wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I talked about Morale being a crushing nerf to Orkz. Your response was to just spend a boat load of CP on them to not run away...forgetting that its a once a game Strat and the new ork one which isn't a once a game strat inflicts the same dmg but gives you the privilege of spending CP to do it yourself.

In what realistic scenario is an opponent going to put 6~ wounds into each of your 4 units of 30 boyz to let morale kill them off "efficiently"? In my experience, people tend to remove an entire unit (or near enough as to make little difference) or leave it untouched. Yes, there will be cases where you lose a few boyz to some leftover shooting and lose a few more to morale but that isn't what's going to make boyz unviable.


Honest answer? Turn 1. Boyz on the board are not a threat turn 1. At all. Da Jump was incidentally nerfed in 2 different ways. 1: The weirdboy lost +1-3 on casting for being near boyz so its harder to get the 7 to go off and 2: They changed the wording of "ere we go" so you have to re-roll both dice which gives you less than a 50% chance to make your 9' charge. ...and technically 3, they got rid of +1 to charge for Evil Sunz so you can't even get those sweet 8' charges.

So turn 1 if you face an opponent who knows what he is doing, he will split fire onto several boyz mobz to maximize morale dmg before he does his required focus fire on more legitimate threats.

After that it will be situational at best.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 01:34:03


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Except for the extra point of toughness they have over all other marines, of course. And for the few weapons that actually kill both kinds of marines equally well, I doubt that you will find any support in the fluff showing that plague marines shrug them off while marines get riddled with bullets and die.

The one truth is that a plague marine are more resilient than a regular marine when it matters, and that's all that counts.


Pretty sure they've almost always been T5. Even in prior editions they were T4(5), which meant that S8 or 9 could instant death them.

That's another reason why no-one is saying it's a buff, because they already had it.
   
Made in us
Grovelin' Grot




 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't know what to tell you.

You're constructing scenarios that don't apply to the real game and attempting to force cost considerations to a single group of boyz. That isn't real world.

We'll just have to see what pops out in the next few months.


How many things is my KFF going to reasonably be covering with a 6" range though? 2 units of boyz? Some vehicles for a single turn before they outrun him (you can buy an extra buggy instead)?
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Canadian 5th wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I talked about Morale being a crushing nerf to Orkz. Your response was to just spend a boat load of CP on them to not run away...forgetting that its a once a game Strat and the new ork one which isn't a once a game strat inflicts the same dmg but gives you the privilege of spending CP to do it yourself.

In what realistic scenario is an opponent going to put 6~ wounds into each of your 4 units of 30 boyz to let morale kill them off "efficiently"? In my experience, people tend to remove an entire unit (or near enough as to make little difference) or leave it untouched. Yes, there will be cases where you lose a few boyz to some leftover shooting and lose a few more to morale but that isn't what's going to make boyz unviable.


The reason why people are completely wiping out boyz are the current rules - both mob rule and the Endless Green Tide make wiping out units instead of hurting many the correct decision. With the new codex there is no advantage in doing that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Commissar Yarrork wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't know what to tell you.

You're constructing scenarios that don't apply to the real game and attempting to force cost considerations to a single group of boyz. That isn't real world.

We'll just have to see what pops out in the next few months.


How many things is my KFF going to reasonably be covering with a 6" range though? 2 units of boyz? Some vehicles for a single turn before they outrun him (you can buy an extra buggy instead)?


In 5th when the KFF also was "within 6" you could reasonable expect it to cover 2 units at all times and sometimes a third one.

Since the naut basically left competitive gameplay with its LoW status and the wazbomm no longer having a KFF, the only reasonable unit that could bring a KFF would be the MA big mek, because he can take a rather good relic to go with his BS 4+ and is a decent fight with PK. Whether that is worth bringing such an expensive HQ that also eats a relic remains to be seen.

The regular big mek with KFF essentially was "soft-legended". Bringing a model just for the KFF is a complete waste of points.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/28 07:47:04


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Yeah, I'm going to try out a MA mek with a KFF a couple times just to see if the 'oh shoot I didnt get first turn' insurance is worth it. Basically bring him as a shooty second HQ (heck, it's not like I actually need CPs given how trash our strats are, I might as well just give everyone a relic...) and slap the KFF on him just to pop the 'your kff only works once' stratagem if my opponent wins the roll off to go first.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Canadian 5th wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I talked about Morale being a crushing nerf to Orkz. Your response was to just spend a boat load of CP on them to not run away...forgetting that its a once a game Strat and the new ork one which isn't a once a game strat inflicts the same dmg but gives you the privilege of spending CP to do it yourself.

In what realistic scenario is an opponent going to put 6~ wounds into each of your 4 units of 30 boyz to let morale kill them off "efficiently"? In my experience, people tend to remove an entire unit (or near enough as to make little difference) or leave it untouched. Yes, there will be cases where you lose a few boyz to some leftover shooting and lose a few more to morale but that isn't what's going to make boyz unviable.


As Jidmah said, that was due to the old ork toolkit. we had mob rule so would not really fail morale easily and green tide existed so if you leave a couple boyz on the board I get them all back. I play with one foot in narrative/open war 9my preferred style) and the other with tournament players helping them prep for events all around the US. The new competitive way to deal with boyz horde is basically a few easy steps to victory
1. deploy your forces fairly back, yes you will be delaying some mission points but the tradeoff is worth it and its easy to max secondaries against a horde.
2. kill 6-7 boyz per mob turn 1 from each mob then move on, if the took trukk boyz (can also be nobz) special culture that needs to die turn 1. once you have ensured morale losses on every boyz squad allocate fire towards front most units.
3. turn 2 each mod should now be at ~half strength post morale losses against most competitive lists, move up to grab objectives and again take out 6-7 boyz per squad first as priority then loop back to finish the rest if you have the firepower.

most armies will not have a problem doing the above and all current upper tier factions will find it trivially easy to do. I have 7 matches now trying to make the new beast snagga boyz and while that is not enough for a proper evaluation me preliminary thoughts here are... they are not great. they do damage if they get into combat but rarely do they get there against a strong list for the same reasons as normal boyz for similar reasons.

special hats off to GW on grots, they went from one of the worst units in the game to being even worse in the next codex. to run them effectively they need a runtherd ad to score secondaries cannot clump so effectively they are close enough to boyz costs that you should just take min squad sizes of (not great but better) boyz. Gretchin really have zero place in any list now.

Note this is not to say Orks do not have competitive anti-meta builds, thier troops are just garbage. I think orks will end up in the upper middle tier as a spoiler army who will gate keep some lists and take some smaller events. They lack the tools to deal with admech, Drukari, and are sadly fairly well countered by current marines lists very well without needing to modify anything (the tools to beat admech and drukari also apply to the ork buggy and squig lists). Overall we are about in the same spot as we were pre codex but needing to buy some new models to make it work which isn't the worst place to be.

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






I like Squigs.

Squigs are the best thing ever in all of Sci-Fi or Fantasy.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I like Squigs.

Squigs are the best thing ever in all of Sci-Fi or Fantasy.


...I wish theyd just given rules for squigs tho. Just use the gloomspite squig herd models.

I mean, that's what I'm going to use for my 'beast snagga boyz' but whatever.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I like Squigs.

Squigs are the best thing ever in all of Sci-Fi or Fantasy.


Ah, I see you are a boy of kultur as well

I am really glad they expanded the squigs into an actual range for 40k Orks, though I think they missed an opportunity to just make the Kill Rig a squiggoth to be honest.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I like Squigs.

Squigs are the best thing ever in all of Sci-Fi or Fantasy.


Close, but not quite. Snotlings.

   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Squigbuggy has both

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Should probably redo this poll in another month or so once people get a chance to see how good/bad boyz are going to be. I personally still believe Morale is going to be the death of mobz over 10 with 12 being the biggest number likely seen

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Trukkboyz seem ok on paper. But if it'll be possible to run meganobz as trukkboyz, they'll loose this role too. I don't know, it seems that running 2*10 grots is better than 10 boyz for pure backfield scoring.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






 Grimskul wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I like Squigs.

Squigs are the best thing ever in all of Sci-Fi or Fantasy.


Ah, I see you are a boy of kultur as well

I am really glad they expanded the squigs into an actual range for 40k Orks, though I think they missed an opportunity to just make the Kill Rig a squiggoth to be honest.


It is pleasing to see. 40K has been thin on the squiggly ground for much too long.

As for using Squigs as Beast Snaggas? There’s a very significant size difference between the two!

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 koooaei wrote:
Trukkboyz seem ok on paper. But if it'll be possible to run meganobz as trukkboyz, they'll loose this role too. I don't know, it seems that running 2*10 grots is better than 10 boyz for pure backfield scoring.


You kind of need to bring at least one troops slot, so I do think we will see a lot of Trukk Boyz personally (once they, you know, fix how they work...) the main thing I just can't see working is shoota boyz.

They increased their firepower, a little bit, 3 shots instead of 2 if you're within 9" range, but they also removed the ability to advance and shoot and they kept the 18" range, which means conveniently if you use any method to get shoota boyz into engagement range besides mounting them up in a trukk, you're not getting dakka.

In my eyes the best way to make use of bigger than 10 blobs is the various outflank/deep strike/da jump mechanics out there, but ALL of them are 'set up over 9" away' which basically just makes shoota boyz doa. It's simply not worth 185pts for a trukk, a squad of shoota boyz, and a big shoota to put out a grand total of 11 S4 Ap- D1 hits and 1.6 S5 Ap- D1 hits.

Especially when units like Warbikers are sitting right there one slot away, and 175pts of those dumps out 23 S5 Ap- d1 hits, while also moving faster, and also suffering less from morale, and also benefitting from the Speedwaagh ability which shoota boyz (probably) cannot, because for some reason GW decided 'i know, a new type of waaagh that works on these new Dakka weapons we handed every unit! And we'll go ahead and limit it to only VEHICLE and BIKER keyword models!'

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:


You kind of need to bring at least one troops slot, so I do think we will see a lot of Trukk Boyz personally (once they, you know, fix how they work...) the main thing I just can't see working is shoota boyz.

They increased their firepower, a little bit, 3 shots instead of 2 if you're within 9" range, but they also removed the ability to advance and shoot and they kept the 18" range, which means conveniently if you use any method to get shoota boyz into engagement range besides mounting them up in a trukk, you're not getting dakka.

In my eyes the best way to make use of bigger than 10 blobs is the various outflank/deep strike/da jump mechanics out there, but ALL of them are 'set up over 9" away' which basically just makes shoota boyz doa. It's simply not worth 185pts for a trukk, a squad of shoota boyz, and a big shoota to put out a grand total of 11 S4 Ap- D1 hits and 1.6 S5 Ap- D1 hits.

Especially when units like Warbikers are sitting right there one slot away, and 175pts of those dumps out 23 S5 Ap- d1 hits, while also moving faster, and also suffering less from morale, and also benefitting from the Speedwaagh ability which shoota boyz (probably) cannot, because for some reason GW decided 'i know, a new type of waaagh that works on these new Dakka weapons we handed every unit! And we'll go ahead and limit it to only VEHICLE and BIKER keyword models!'


I've seen a lot of people harping on about how internally balanced the Ork codex appears. I think they are dead wrong for your above stated reason. On top of that, now that a lot of the glitter has washed away, I am noticing how crap a lot of our units are. I really thought the dakkajet was going to be amazing, but it only averages 4dmg a turn against Marines. Thats a 120pt unit being required to get within 18' range and only managing 36pts of dmg against a Marine player in 1 turn. I mean, during the speed Waaaagh (if that is the way you decide to go) it goes up to 6.2 but...whoopdeedoo? Same thing for those Warbikes. Turn 1 they are likely only getting 6 shots each which means on average a unit of 5 will get you 30 shots, 10 hits, 6.6 wounds and 2.2dmg vs Marines. That is actually WORSE than the dakkajet. When you do get within 9' range they go up to 3.7, but that is still worse than the Dakkajet. Comparitively 2 Deffkoptas cost 25pts less and average 4.4dmg with their rokkitz.

I think we are yet again a victim of GW not understanding how crap BS5+ is. Give our guns to Marines and its amazing, the dakkajet like I said goes from 4dmg vs Marines to 8dmg. Those Warbikes at long range go from 2.2 dmg to 4.4 and at short range its 7.4 Those are respectable numbers, not what we currently have.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
Squigbuggy has both


Naturally!

#besthundredpointsinthegame
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






But you're going for speedwaaagh anyways. Jet is great for popping that freeboota +1 to hit off a unit out of Los that your squig buggy couldn't deal with.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 koooaei wrote:
But you're going for speedwaaagh anyways. Jet is great for popping that freeboota +1 to hit off a unit out of Los that your squig buggy couldn't deal with.


Assuming SpeedWaaagh, assuming Freeboota+1 assuming Dakka range. You end up with 42 shots, 21 hits, 14 wounds and 9.3ish dmg. That is 4.5 dead Marines. That is a lot of things that have to go off to get a dakkajet to perform to the point where its killing 72pts of Marines in a single turn. On top of that, the SpeedWaaagh is only 1 turn, turn 2 it goes to 36 shots(assuming still in dakka range) 18 hits(assuming Freeboota+1), 12 wounds and 6dmg. Basically to earn your points back you need to have all of those buffs and be alive turn 1 and 2. I played a game recently where I had 2 Burnabommas never make it out of my deployment zone because my opponent killed both as well as a host of other things turn 1. So assuming a dakkajet survives for 2 turns isn't a sure thing to say the least.

To put it bluntly i'm beginning to think the entire premise of the "Speed Waaagh" is 1 mislabeled, its a dakkawaaagh and 2, is a trap choice do to how piss poor ork shooting is and how bad the actual dakka weapons are.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






SemperMortis wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


You kind of need to bring at least one troops slot, so I do think we will see a lot of Trukk Boyz personally (once they, you know, fix how they work...) the main thing I just can't see working is shoota boyz.

They increased their firepower, a little bit, 3 shots instead of 2 if you're within 9" range, but they also removed the ability to advance and shoot and they kept the 18" range, which means conveniently if you use any method to get shoota boyz into engagement range besides mounting them up in a trukk, you're not getting dakka.

In my eyes the best way to make use of bigger than 10 blobs is the various outflank/deep strike/da jump mechanics out there, but ALL of them are 'set up over 9" away' which basically just makes shoota boyz doa. It's simply not worth 185pts for a trukk, a squad of shoota boyz, and a big shoota to put out a grand total of 11 S4 Ap- D1 hits and 1.6 S5 Ap- D1 hits.

Especially when units like Warbikers are sitting right there one slot away, and 175pts of those dumps out 23 S5 Ap- d1 hits, while also moving faster, and also suffering less from morale, and also benefitting from the Speedwaagh ability which shoota boyz (probably) cannot, because for some reason GW decided 'i know, a new type of waaagh that works on these new Dakka weapons we handed every unit! And we'll go ahead and limit it to only VEHICLE and BIKER keyword models!'


I've seen a lot of people harping on about how internally balanced the Ork codex appears. I think they are dead wrong for your above stated reason. On top of that, now that a lot of the glitter has washed away, I am noticing how crap a lot of our units are. I really thought the dakkajet was going to be amazing, but it only averages 4dmg a turn against Marines. Thats a 120pt unit being required to get within 18' range and only managing 36pts of dmg against a Marine player in 1 turn. I mean, during the speed Waaaagh (if that is the way you decide to go) it goes up to 6.2 but...whoopdeedoo? Same thing for those Warbikes. Turn 1 they are likely only getting 6 shots each which means on average a unit of 5 will get you 30 shots, 10 hits, 6.6 wounds and 2.2dmg vs Marines. That is actually WORSE than the dakkajet. When you do get within 9' range they go up to 3.7, but that is still worse than the Dakkajet. Comparitively 2 Deffkoptas cost 25pts less and average 4.4dmg with their rokkitz.

I think we are yet again a victim of GW not understanding how crap BS5+ is. Give our guns to Marines and its amazing, the dakkajet like I said goes from 4dmg vs Marines to 8dmg. Those Warbikes at long range go from 2.2 dmg to 4.4 and at short range its 7.4 Those are respectable numbers, not what we currently have.


...I mean that's probably because GW has actually put a lot of effort into making anti-GEQ weaponry not also work super efficiently against MEQ. We have anti-MEQ weaponry - the squigbuggy gets about 50% points return by shooting at MEQ as does the Boomdakka Snazzwagon and we've got plenty of D2 melee units that can easily mop up a 100% points return against MEQ no problem. The Dakkajet is an anti-horde tool, it absolutely deletes basically any 10-man W1 infantry squad.

W2 infantry in general now gets that second wound at a lot lower cost than the first wound, in order to resolve the issue that 8th had pretty early on where the most efficient weapon to deal with elite infantry was...just bring an anti-horde gun and the numbers will average out.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Yeah. I don't know why people keeps comparing how good a unit is (Not saying shoota boyz are good) agaisnt the MEQ profile when, heck, right now the top armies all have a different profile, admech, sisters, drukhari.

How much damage does the dakajedt agaisnt a raider? Or wyches? Or Skitarii (That right now until nerfed can be hard as rocks TBH but is not like they'll have all the defensive buffs in the same unit at the same time)?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 15:04:56


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Galas wrote:
Yeah. I don't know why people keeps comparing how good a unit is (Not saying shoota boyz are good) agaisnt the MEQ profile when, heck, right now the top armies all have a different profile, admech, sisters, drukhari.


Because in real life most of the games involve MEQs. Who cares about the top armies at GTs when in your local meta there's only 1-2 out of 20 players that actually run one of those? And how many of them actually field overly competitive lists?

A random collection of SM, custodes or Deathguard is good enough to be considered a priority threat instead, so a solid codex needs tools to deal with them first.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 15:36:48



 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Bikes without a Speedwaaagh are kind of lackluster. But I feel that's a build problem rather than a unit problem.

I don't think you should say "with these bonuses they only get a 50% return versus MEQ" - as if a 50% return is bad.
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

I guess all the Ork players should just throw their entire army in the trash! All their opponents have to do is remove four models and the entire army collapses...

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
Yeah. I don't know why people keeps comparing how good a unit is (Not saying shoota boyz are good) agaisnt the MEQ profile when, heck, right now the top armies all have a different profile, admech, sisters, drukhari.

How much damage does the dakajedt agaisnt a raider? Or wyches? Or Skitarii (That right now until nerfed can be hard as rocks TBH but is not like they'll have all the defensive buffs in the same unit at the same time)?


Why? Well, I like playing tournaments so lets look at why. At the recent Lone Star Open (165 players) 43 of them were Strictly Space Marines. That does not include Grey Knights, Custodes or Chaos Marines of any flavor (Death guard had a lot) Nor does it include SOB who are Space Marines light.

So just strictly Space Marines, in a 6 game tournament you will on average face 1 and 1/2 Marine armies. And if you include Marine Like profiles its well over 50% of the event. Hell Death Guard had like 16 players alone.

So, why compare them? because they are your most likely opponent and if you can't get by them you have no chance at the top tables.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Just because you have an anti-horde unit doesn't mean you can't beat marines. The whole army doesn't need to be focused on killing marines to get wins against them.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Just because you have an anti-horde unit doesn't mean you can't beat marines. The whole army doesn't need to be focused on killing marines to get wins against them.


That wasn't the question.... You have a tendency to create a lot of strawman arguments bud.

The question was why do people compare weapons performance vs Space Marines. And I gave that answer, because most opponents are Space Marines of one flavor or another. To add to that initial point, they are the yard stick GW has imposed upon us by sheer dint of popularity.

If you want to compare how good a unit is vs something else, feel free to. I use the measurement against a Tac marine because that is literally the yard stick I have personally used for over a decade, because they are without a doubt the most common defensive profile I run into in games.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: