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Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Dysartes wrote:Quite a few things that made Squats popular in Epic probably wouldn't've worked in the 2nd edition rules framework - super-heavies, the Goliath artillery, Land Train, the flyers, etc. I can sort of see that.

Doesn't mean there weren't things that could've been done, though.


Yes I think so too. The super-big war engines would probably fit nowadays, but not then.

Also can you imagine trying to design/cast a 28mm scale land train in metal. I'm sure they would be going for a lot on eBay now, but it's one area the plastic production (for larger kits) has really helped with.

Voss wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
Voss wrote:
Here's a copy of Jervis talking about it some time ago (not quite 20 years) on Portent (before it was Warseer).

https://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=70533.0

tl;dr; they worked in epic, but in 40k, no muse, no inspiration.


Which is equally lame...


Oh, no. Its much worse. 'Sales suck' is unfortunate, but a legitimate reason for a business to discontinue a product line. Customers aren't buying this product, so we should focus on other things is a real motivation.

'We couldn't figure out how to make dwarf engineers in space interesting' is an utterly baffling thing for one of 'the creatives' to say. As a group, they couldn't figure out how to make them interesting at all... but only for 40k. They were fine in WFB AND, most damning, in Epic 40k. Just not... 28mm 40k? What? And then they reimagined them as the Demiurg for BFG, but again for 40k went... splat. Not because they failed, but because they didn't even try.

It is just not understandable that they could somehow do them justice in the spin-off games, but not in the main game. _Especially_ at the time, when there weren't any real tech experts in the setting.


I think it's important to add a little context here. You have to think there was a fairly strong, negative backlash against the treatment that Squat players had received prior to Jervis writing that letter. This was partly the response in a White Dwarf (which has to be read to be believed, it was just so dismissive) and the fact that they had been ignored completely from an official standpoint.

I think Jervis was quite good at trying to be supportive with the fans and doing his own thing upon occasion, even though GW management themselves didn't care. This included keeping the specialist games going (they were meant to have been benched entirely some time before, but he kept things going and apparently completely off his own back, on top of his other duties). And I think also this letter; I think he knew that there were a lot of aggrieved fans at the time, and this was an attempt to at least try and explain to them.

So it's not a very good excuse (although I think ultimately those guys were probably just doing what they thought was best, and the company was much smaller at the time) but I think its remarkable the fans got it at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/06 15:22:15


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I would buy a squat army if given the chance.
   
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Vigo. Spain.

At this point to be a squat-hater is as much a meme as wanting squats to return.

GW always does killer money when they bring back new factions, why would they do it worse with space dwarfs.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.

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So by that logic you're advocating to remove the Tau ASAP, Skinnereal?

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
So by that logic you're advocating to remove the Tau ASAP, Skinnereal?
Aren't they semi-mind controlled or something? I'm not up on the Tau lore these days, but I thought that there was some shady stuff going on.

Not that it would be hard to add something dark and twisted to Squats. Although I don't think that's really necessary either.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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No the T'au aren't mind controlled. There may have been some sort of shenanigans on the Ethereal's part back when the T'au were little more than Bronze Age kingdoms but not now.
The T'au are the glimmer of hope in the darkness for the civilised races, an empire where all can come together under the T'au'va as one. Of course there is a stringent Caste system that prevents interbreeding/marrying and the entire empire is controlled by a self proclaimed ruling class, and one of the latest Spheres of expansion got super Xenophobic and started slaughtering their non-T'au allies, and the ruler of the empire is a sophisticated hologram because the real one got murdered and it would shatter the empire if said ruler was found out to be dead. Oh and the auxiliary races are basically treated as fancy cannon fodder, with at least one being wiped out so a Sept could take over their idealic homeworld.
Wow turns out the T'au are actually pretty suited to 40k. Who'd of thought.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/07 00:12:42


 
   
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 Skinnereal wrote:
I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.


Sounds like questions GW should've taken about 10 minutes to answer 20some years ago.
But in the end? Irrelevant. It's cool models & awesome super-heavy kits - Land Trains, Goliath Cannons, etc that'll sell the faction.
   
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Denison, Iowa

Do we have a faction that can do artillery as a theme? (IG tank line doesn't count).
   
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 cuda1179 wrote:
Do we have a faction that can do artillery as a theme? (IG tank line doesn't count).


You mean like... an imperial guard Medusa line? Guard can put actual artillery on the table and not just tanks.

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It's all confirmation bias - that because nothing was done with them that nothing CAN be done.

There is no inherent creative black hole surrounding them.

You know what would be a cool angle? The Tyranids tried a new assimilation method that spread through genestealer cults. A virus that mutated them.

The squat empire was destroyed from within and now they must continue, suspicious of viral cults springing up. Gene testing is mandatory and the population has dwindled due to lower fertility.

They have become embittered and their hatred of the Tyranids is legendary.

They have declared eternal war on the Tyranids and their warfleets ply the stars looking for any excuse to exterminate a planet with even a hint of genestealer infestation.

They refuse to talk to the imperium any more.

Their estranged cousins who survive within the imperium are seen as traitors and shot on site.

So:

Embittered, check
Suspicious check
Partially destroyed check
Angry war footing check
A racial curse that could ultimately kill them all check


Look it's not rocket surgery to come up with this stuff

   
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 Skinnereal wrote:
I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.


A proud, noble race once ruling a relatively substantial Empire, left to be wiped out by a horrific swarm of alien horrors after being abandoned and forgotten by their allies and mistakenly considered extinct, reduced to a small number of survivors now of little note beyond the curiosity of "Wow, they survived after all?" and holding a bitter grudge at the Imperium for their actions wouldn't be something dark to you?


 Gert wrote:
No the T'au aren't mind controlled. There may have been some sort of shenanigans on the Ethereal's part back when the T'au were little more than Bronze Age kingdoms but not now.
The T'au are the glimmer of hope in the darkness for the civilised races, an empire where all can come together under the T'au'va as one. Of course there is a stringent Caste system that prevents interbreeding/marrying and the entire empire is controlled by a self proclaimed ruling class, and one of the latest Spheres of expansion got super Xenophobic and started slaughtering their non-T'au allies, and the ruler of the empire is a sophisticated hologram because the real one got murdered and it would shatter the empire if said ruler was found out to be dead. Oh and the auxiliary races are basically treated as fancy cannon fodder, with at least one being wiped out so a Sept could take over their idealic homeworld.
Wow turns out the T'au are actually pretty suited to 40k. Who'd of thought.


The Tau used to be a different style of grimdark. It was like the Federation from Star Trek had been thrown into the 40k universe, desperately trying to hold onto their ideals and survive in a horrifying universe where they just didn't fit in with those around them. It was quite a scary idea - for both as an inclusion to the setting, and to them obviously - to have them as a small bright light not realizing how futile it all was and how there was just no place for them. I much prefered that, but now they're basically Imperium-lite with them doing all sorts of terrible things. They still fit originally, they were just a different type of existential horror than the overt darkness of the others.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/07 00:47:37


 
   
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South Carolina, USA

 Skinnereal wrote:
I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.


I literally have THE BEST GRIMDARK answers to these questions.

From the original source material from the RT days (not gonna quote, but I can if you want) the squats were human colonists near the galactic core, where planets were richer in minerals and had higher density, thus higher gravity. Over time, they mutated into the tough, hardy abhumans known as squats. During the Dark Age of Technology, warp storms caused their planets to lose contact with the larger human empire. During this time period, they formed a trading arrangement with the Eldar (and possibly the orks). Eventually, the Orks attacked the Squats, who appealed to the Eldar for help. The Eldar sniffed and walked away, so the squats suffered a whole lot of lost planets and devastation. As a result, they hate both orks and eldar. Eventually, contact with the Empire was restored, and since the squats had access to quite a few STC fabs, the Empire was super excited to allow them to rejoin. Everyone was... happy. For grimdark definitions of happy.

You can see already they have some tormented soul - a thirst for vengeance against the orks and the Eldar.

But my backstory for CURRENT squats goes like this (again, using the canon from GW): When the Tyranids appeared and started to ravage the Squat homeworlds, the Empire basically used them as a diversion and didn't put any effort into helping them. JUST LIKE THE ELDAR! So, the squats jumped their happy short bodies into spaceships and blasted off for happier territory (probably adjacent to the T'au for all I know). Now they hate EVERYBODY (except the T'au, with whom they have cautious, wary trade agreements) since: the orks tried to kill them all, the Tyranids tried to eat them all, the Eldar betrayed them, the Empire betrayed them, the Necrons want EVERYONE dead, and Chaos just destroys everything. And they'll be happy to bite the T'au's kneecaps off if anyone looks at them cross-eyed.

The Squats 2020 are ANGRY SPACE DWARVES who have Imperial STC technology and have trade for T'au technology and have a score to settle with nearly every other race in the universe. If that's not grimdark enough for you, then, I don't know, maybe put some emo makeup on them and give them facial piercings or something?

Squats 2020! 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

The Tau always did terrible things.

"Join the Tau Empire."
"No."
"Please join the Tau Empire."
"I said no."

*orbital bombardment*
"Join the Tau Empire."
"Yeah, ok."
"Thank you for joining us so willingly. You now have a place within the Greater Good. All citizens of the Tau Empire are equal, except actual Tau, who are slightly more equal than you."
"Great..."


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/07 00:57:57


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RE: Grimdark

To me, it's all about Living Ancestor.

They are ancient repositories of technological knowledge- minds artificially preserved in cages of whithering flesh by the younger generations who can't afford to lose the knowledge.

Essentially, EVERY Living Ancestor is a Lesser Emperor on a Lesser Golden Throne. They are brought into battle because it is ony through their knowledge that Squat Armies can hope to prevail, and yet they are so valuable that the army will sacrifice whatever it takes to keep them alive.

Add this to dadx6's take, and I think they can be grimdark enough. I also think the Living Ancestors have the capacity to be the unique rule hook in addition to being cool from a fluff perspective.

And beards. Lots of beards. Like, sculpted into the power armour of the elite troops kinda beards. I love Kharadon Overlord models- same template with a little less steam and a lot more future tech.

Great counterpunch to Dark Mechanicus.
   
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Skinnereal wrote:I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.



You've gotta be joking, a race when the Imperium first encountered them had to have an entirely different mark of armour developed to be able to counter them, sounds pretty freakin grimdark to me. What's so tough that an armour who was able to beat down orks, eldar, everyone else but other marines??? A fething 4.5ft tall chunk of pissed off ancestor worshiping technologically superior to Mars tech abhuman, that's who.

Oh and they had biker gangs based on board Landtrains and aircraft that rivaled eldar.
   
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Their Epic equipment is legendary. I remember seeing two Cyclops's deployed for a 10,000 point Epic game, and boy those things did work. I think one of them punched right through a Warlord, Void Shields and all in one go.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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Les Etats Unis

 Gert wrote:
Oh and the auxiliary races are basically treated as fancy cannon fodder, with at least one being wiped out so a Sept could take over their idealic homeworld.


If you're talking about the Poctroon, there's never been any proof or even strong suggestion (AFAIK) that the Tau were responsible for that. It's just a fan theory.

The Tau are also definitely better when the Ethereals are responsible for most of the empire's atrocities. It creates an interesting dynamic in which the average Tau soldiers are genuinely nice, upstanding citizens who try their best to avoid their superiors, lest they force them to start another eugenics program.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
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Eye of Terror

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Skinnereal wrote:
I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.


A proud, noble race once ruling a relatively substantial Empire, left to be wiped out by a horrific swarm of alien horrors after being abandoned and forgotten by their allies and mistakenly considered extinct, reduced to a small number of survivors now of little note beyond the curiosity of "Wow, they survived after all?" and holding a bitter grudge at the Imperium for their actions wouldn't be something dark to you?


The Hobbit did a lot with a small band of Dwarves looking to reclaim their kingdom. I imagine a faction consisting of mercenaries fighting to reclaim their homeworld would translate well into 40k.

Don't know if they deserve to be an actual faction, however. Squats as allies that can be called upon by other forces makes more sense to me.

   
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 Skinnereal wrote:
I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.


Contrary to most responses - yeah, I think this is the big problem.

Sorry but "I think Squats is a pretty cool guy. Eh is slightly shorter and more bearded Cadian and doesnt afraid of anything." is not interesting lore. Its certainly not Grimdark. And I think the fact this is what they ended up with in 1991 is why the faction ceased to exist. I guess I can sort of understand "I want noble upstanding LoTR Dwarves in Spaaace" but its not 40k.

Really I think this divide is going to split what passes for "Squat fans". The lore that exists is very much 1st Edition Fantasy crossover - and sucks as a result.
Make them fully Xenos, give them some fundamental racial curse - and then show how their society works and how its inevitably getting worse over time.

Living Ancestors for instance would be cool if they are fully Golden-throned up, decrepit, beards in jars. If they are just old Dwarf psykers and "oh no losing them would be so bad, how would we cope, oh well never mind" then its kind of lame.
   
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There can be plenty grimdark about Dwarfs/Squats. Keep in mind that Dwarfs in WHFB are psychotically grudge-obsessed. They will destroy a city if they get shorted on payment; there is no Khazalid word for "forgiveness".

And at their heart, they're both dying races. In WHFB, rinn - dwarf women - are generally kept at home. Hence why we don't see them much. Why? Because the birth rates are so low.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/12/07 14:45:15


Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better.

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Gig Harbor, WA

 dadx6 wrote:
 Skinnereal wrote:
I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.


I literally have THE BEST GRIMDARK answers to these questions.

From the original source material from the RT days (not gonna quote, but I can if you want) the squats were human colonists near the galactic core, where planets were richer in minerals and had higher density, thus higher gravity. Over time, they mutated into the tough, hardy abhumans known as squats. During the Dark Age of Technology, warp storms caused their planets to lose contact with the larger human empire. During this time period, they formed a trading arrangement with the Eldar (and possibly the orks). Eventually, the Orks attacked the Squats, who appealed to the Eldar for help. The Eldar sniffed and walked away, so the squats suffered a whole lot of lost planets and devastation. As a result, they hate both orks and eldar. Eventually, contact with the Empire was restored, and since the squats had access to quite a few STC fabs, the Empire was super excited to allow them to rejoin. Everyone was... happy. For grimdark definitions of happy.

You can see already they have some tormented soul - a thirst for vengeance against the orks and the Eldar.

But my backstory for CURRENT squats goes like this (again, using the canon from GW): When the Tyranids appeared and started to ravage the Squat homeworlds, the Empire basically used them as a diversion and didn't put any effort into helping them. JUST LIKE THE ELDAR! So, the squats jumped their happy short bodies into spaceships and blasted off for happier territory (probably adjacent to the T'au for all I know). Now they hate EVERYBODY (except the T'au, with whom they have cautious, wary trade agreements) since: the orks tried to kill them all, the Tyranids tried to eat them all, the Eldar betrayed them, the Empire betrayed them, the Necrons want EVERYONE dead, and Chaos just destroys everything. And they'll be happy to bite the T'au's kneecaps off if anyone looks at them cross-eyed.

The Squats 2020 are ANGRY SPACE DWARVES who have Imperial STC technology and have trade for T'au technology and have a score to settle with nearly every other race in the universe. If that's not grimdark enough for you, then, I don't know, maybe put some emo makeup on them and give them facial piercings or something?


I love everything about this. instead of space dwarfs, we get Space SLAYER ENGINEERS. RAAAAGE. With TECHNOLOGY.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/08 02:43:47


 
   
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From my experience, "I hate squats" was a line toted a lot at the time by people who were just towing the party line and repeating what GW had said. They were also a fairly easy target to ridicule, with the name, although as has been proven in this thread (and the many others like it going back over the years) really there is no reason at all that the concept couldn't have worked well.

 Dysartes wrote:
So by that logic you're advocating to remove the Tau ASAP, Skinnereal?


Great counterpoint there.

Liked Hellebore's comment above - there is no reason at all that a half-decent back story couldn't be rustled up. In fact, it would probably fit in a lot better with the 40k theme than their current charted course of returning Primarchs from the dead and having new technological developments/new marines etc.


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 Dysartes wrote:
So by that logic you're advocating to remove the Tau ASAP, Skinnereal?
Nope. I don't know much about T'au.
But, just looking at the units, and design of the models, they fill a niche that Squats would have trouble finding these days. T'au units do not seem to overlap any other army nearly as much as much as Squats would.

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 Skinnereal wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
So by that logic you're advocating to remove the Tau ASAP, Skinnereal?
Nope. I don't know much about T'au.
But, just looking at the units, and design of the models, they fill a niche that Squats would have trouble finding these days. T'au units do not seem to overlap any other army nearly as much as much as Squats would.


You don't seem to know much about Squats either.

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NE Ohio, USA

 RaptorusRex wrote:
 Skinnereal wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
So by that logic you're advocating to remove the Tau ASAP, Skinnereal?
Nope. I don't know much about T'au.
But, just looking at the units, and design of the models, they fill a niche that Squats would have trouble finding these days. T'au units do not seem to overlap any other army nearly as much as much as Squats would.


You don't seem to know much about Squats either.


You could say that they know..... squat.
   
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I always believe that Squats could work as a true Imperial Rebel faction. I've said it before on this forum, but a bunch of hyper-technological Abhumans who are independent from the main Imperium and worship their own ancestors instead of the Imperial Creed, sounds like something the Imperium would want dead instantly. In the second edition, it was mentioned that the squats seceded from the Imperium.

Let's slowly kill of their Empire in secret. If people start to ask questions, just say they got devoured by Tyranids. Being killed off by your former allies because of their new ideology sounds way more grudgeworthy.

Heck, the Great Rift could even be a reason of their resurgence. A rising Empire in Nihilus sounds quite interesting.
   
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Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

 RaptorusRex wrote:
 Skinnereal wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
So by that logic you're advocating to remove the Tau ASAP, Skinnereal?
Nope. I don't know much about T'au.
But, just looking at the units, and design of the models, they fill a niche that Squats would have trouble finding these days. T'au units do not seem to overlap any other army nearly as much as much as Squats would.
You don't seem to know much about Squats either.
Not past late-RT, when I stopped, nearly 30 years ago. So yeah. Mine is all from what I remember from when Squats were initially a thing.

Care to update me?
The overlap with Ad Mech and IG seems obvious, based on what was available to Squats when they were available. There were a couple of oddities (mole mortar), but apart from them...
Squat infantry was armed with Lasguns, but so was everyone else back then.
Now that Ad Mech have the mounted troops, not AM Rough Riders, they have more similarities with the Squat trikes.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/12/09 11:13:49


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Longtime Dakkanaut




I think a lot of people would agree that first generation Tau lore kind of sucked for the reasons issues are being raised on these Squat proposals.

Its also why GW spent the last few edition's worth of updates going "how does a new dynamic Scrappy Doo Empire get on in the 40k universe - oh look, kind of badly. And their society and leaders become progressively meaner and more messed up as a result."
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

I really like OG tau background! But then I also really like OG squat background so maybe the wrong sort of fan?

   
 
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