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notredameguy10 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.

And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)

Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.

SJ

I thought the formation specifically states "stealth suits" within 6" of a Ghostkeel.. which Shadowsun is not a stealth suit (model) and thus would not benefit????

Some extreme abuses of this otherwise.... O'Vesa could join the unit and get the same benefits.. A dual MP commander could join after deployment and start crushing vehicles at 36"

?

Shadows is in a stealth suit.

Fluff yes. She has a custom suit, but that doesn't matter. Stealth suits are there own model. That is my argument.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.

And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)

Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.

SJ

I thought the formation specifically states "stealth suits" within 6" of a Ghostkeel.. which Shadowsun is not a stealth suit (model) and thus would not benefit????

Some extreme abuses of this otherwise.... O'Vesa could join the unit and get the same benefits.. A dual MP commander could join after deployment and start crushing vehicles at 36"

?

Shadows is in a stealth suit.

Fluff yes. She has a custom suit, but that doesn't matter. Stealth suits are there own model. That is my argument.

Um its not fluff. Its the equipment she has equipped

Shadowsun: XV22 Stealth Battlesuit
Stealth Battlesuits: XV25 Stealth Battlesuit

Wall of Mirrors; "...any stealth battlesuits from this formation...."

Normally when an IC joins a formation unit they dont get the benefits of the formation. I say usually because if one of those benefits is a flatout special rule (Relentless, Ignores Cover, etc) without condition, that confers since nothing restricts it.

Mirrors specify this formation. She doesnt get anything from it.

Edit: Stupid me, not Relentless lol. Dont know why i keep doing that. I say thats a sharing rule then immediately correct myself like 10 times a day i swear

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Normally when an IC joins a formation unit they dont get the benefits of the formation. I say usually because if one of those benefits is a flatout special rule (Relentless, Ignores Cover, etc) without condition, that confers since nothing restricts it.

Mirrors specify this formation. She doesnt get anything from it.

Correct. Although shadowsun is part of a unit from the formation, the special rule specifies that models, not units, benefit. If the wording of Wall of Mirrors said "units from this formation" then she would absolutely get those special rules, as she counts as part of that unit. But the wall of mirrors rule does not say that. It says that models from the formation gain those special rules. She is not a model from the formation, nor does wall of mirrors confer to the unit. It only confers to the models that are from the formation. It's rather cut and dry

Its helps to post the rule.

The Wall of Mirrors: At the start of your shooting phase, this Formation can network their stealth fields to create a Wall of Mirrors. If you do so, then the weapons used by the Formation's Ghostkeels and by any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this Formation that are within 6" of a Ghostkeel from this formation, have the Ignores Cover special rule and these models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill for that Shooting Phase. In addition, their weapons are assumed to strike the rear armor of any vehicle that they hit, no matter what its actual formation.

It does say any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this formation, not models.

Fragile wrote:
Its helps to post the rule.

The Wall of Mirrors: At the start of your shooting phase, this Formation can network their stealth fields to create a Wall of Mirrors. If you do so, then the weapons used by the Formation's Ghostkeels and by any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this Formation that are within 6" of a Ghostkeel from this formation, have the Ignores Cover special rule and these models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill for that Shooting Phase. In addition, their weapons are assumed to strike the rear armor of any vehicle that they hit, no matter what its actual formation.

It does say any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this formation, not models.

She's not part of the formation so no wall of mirrors for her.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.

And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)

Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.

SJ

Ill just requote this for you guys who came in late.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Normally when an IC joins a formation unit they dont get the benefits of the formation. I say usually because if one of those benefits is a flatout special rule (Relentless, Ignores Cover, etc) without condition, that confers since nothing restricts it.

Mirrors specify this formation. She doesnt get anything from it.

Correct. Although shadowsun is part of a unit from the formation, the special rule specifies that models, not units, benefit. If the wording of Wall of Mirrors said "units from this formation" then she would absolutely get those special rules, as she counts as part of that unit. But the wall of mirrors rule does not say that. It says that models from the formation gain those special rules. She is not a model from the formation, nor does wall of mirrors confer to the unit. It only confers to the models that are from the formation. It's rather cut and dry

um no, the special rule specifies units

She's not a unit from the formation, so does not benefit.

Apologies I misremembered. I was thinking of coordinated firepower, where the firing models benefit (different discussion of course, I just got them mixed up)

Anyhow, then yes she does benefit. She is part of a unit from that formation. Though she herself is not a unit from that formation, she counts as part of the stealth suit unit. That is how ICs work. So she gets all of the bells and whistles that the unit does.

I would just wonder if that a good place to put her. The stealth suits are already super tough to kill without ignores cover, and shadowsun could be giving that to a different unit instead. How about those jinking markerlight drones?

Furthermore, if your opponent CAN ignore cover, that is a really expensive unit. Like really expensive

The problem is that the rules on Independent Characters and Special Rules are insufficient (and somewhat contradictory) when it comes to Formations.

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes."
The argument for sharing rules is that an Independent Character joined to a unit from a Formation counts as part of that unit; therefore special rules granted by the Formation to the unit confer to all models in the unit (including the IC) - similar to Stubborn where if at least one model has the rule, then all models in the unit gain the effect.

"An Independent Character might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself, the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character."
The argument against sharing rules is that an Independent Character only benefits from a special rule that the unit has if the rule states so; therefore special rules granted by the formation to the unit are only granted to models from the Formation and their benefits do not confer to the Independent Character - similar to Jink where if a unit declares it will use the special rule, then only models with the rule gain the effect.

In my opinion the second interpretation should be preferred since it relies on a specific rule regarding the sharing of special rules (whereas the other rule is for general rules purposes); but I can see why others would disagree.

I agree with Peregrim.. otherwise you can finf some serious abuses. Thank you for quoting the rules.

I did finally get a chance to re-read wall of mirrors. Originally like most formations I thought it read models in the formation. So in this case it's a Harry situation.

As I read it... The first rule quoted is for all effects on the unit, like targeting, shooting, psychic etc, Essentially not referring to special rules of the unit. Whereas the second does.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
I agree with Peregrim.. otherwise you can finf some serious abuses. Thank you for quoting the rules.

I did finally get a chance to re-read wall of mirrors. Originally like most formations I thought it read models in the formation. So in this case it's a Harry situation.

As I read it... The first rule quoted is for all effects on the unit, like targeting, shooting, psychic etc, Essentially not referring to special rules of the unit. Whereas the second does.

It doesn't get serious abuse because it DOES stat that it has to be a "unit of stealth battlesuits". Having shadowsun join (who is also in a stealth battle suit) means the squad is still entirely a "unit of stealth battle suits" which would not be the case with other IC

notredameguy10 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.

And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)

Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.

SJ

Ill just requote this for you guys who came in late.

This is the case if it stated the stealth team unit got the benefit over the stealth suit models in the formation as that refers to the models with stealth suits purchased as part of the formation unfortunately. It's pretty clear.

 n0t_u wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.

And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)

Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.

SJ

Ill just requote this for you guys who came in late.

This is the case if it stated the stealth team unit got the benefit over the stealth suit models in the formation as that refers to the models with stealth suits purchased as part of the formation unfortunately. It's pretty clear.

and again, the Wall of Mirrors rule specifically states units, not models

Load breachers and an ethereal in a devilfish with drones and use storm of fire when it gets in close. 9" away the devil fish is spitting out 10str 5 shots plus it could take two seekers.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.

And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)

Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.

SJ

Ill just requote this for you guys who came in late.

This is the case if it stated the stealth team unit got the benefit over the stealth suit models in the formation as that refers to the models with stealth suits purchased as part of the formation unfortunately. It's pretty clear.

and again, the Wall of Mirrors rule specifically states units, not models

Reading it again you're right I remembered it wrong, but by the same logic that's lead to it from the IC rules wouldn't that mean that any IC that has joined the stealth suits will actually get it? Cause it's not even specifying that they need a stealth suit. Or did I miss something?

 n0t_u wrote:

Reading it again you're right I remembered it wrong, but by the same logic that's lead to it from the IC rules wouldn't that mean that any IC that has joined the stealth suits will actually get it? Cause it's not even specifying that they need a stealth suit. Or did I miss something?

That is essentially my point on why if an IC gains the benefits this can be abused. It says any unit of stealth battlesuits from the formation. If a commander joins it is still a unit of s.b. from the formation.

Above it was clearly quoted from the brb by perigrim on why the IC won't gain the bonus. But as is majority of the rules.. many interpretations.. I'm done arguing. Back to tactics!

Any thoughts on the Starter set formation?
I dont See any real benefits in there :/

Aeri wrote:
Any thoughts on the Starter set formation?
I dont See any real benefits in there :/

Nope formation is bad, but the box set is amazing $ wise. $145 worth of models for $85!

More tactics,

What are good formation besides OSC, fire base support and the wings? Some look really cool but how has tested them?

arthorn wrote:
More tactics,

What are good formation besides OSC, fire base support and the wings? Some look really cool but how has tested them?

OSC
Riptide Wing
Drone Net
Piranha firestorm wing

I like the looks of the Ranged Support Cadre. Double markerlights is pretty sweet, and Shrouded makes Pathfinders viable. Broadsides are still one of the most efficient killing machines in the game, and who wouldn't want to make them even more reliable? In a DBC or a non-ITC Hunter Contingent, they can pretty much wipe anything you want off the board that isn't a land raider.

The standard CAD is also pretty nifty if you abuse it a little. Darkstrider firing a Tidewall gunfort is menacing, to say the least. Instant Death on T6? Yes, please!

The Fire-Ray

Commander
2 Suits
2 Tetras and 1+ Skyrays.

Awesome units and rules. The tetras have these things called heavy markerlights.. and they can move and shoot markerlights!

(I was trying to milk the Hunter Contingent buuut.. missed not having access to the above cool models. Just my two cents)

The Retaliation Cadre is a very powerful formation, nothing quite like mobile Broadsides, assured deep strike, and no real tax in it.

The Skysweep Missile Defense formation isn't exactly bad either, if you want Skyrays it gives you access to them and some bonuses. The Devilfish is a pretty big tax, but if you have a use for it in the game it's not bad either. It's more of an issue of how useful you can make the extra abilities, and how much you want three Skyrays.

The Air Superiority Cadre can actually be good too. The Razorshark Fighter is much better than the bomber, and isn't so much bad as it doesn't normally provide us anything we can't get in other places just as well or better. However, with the formation, they get a lot of benefits that put them into contention for a solid choice if you're bringing 3 of them.

They get better BS against Jetbikes, Skimmers, and any type of flier, which will probably be active in a large portion of games played. They also get to just show up from reserves if any of those types are in play for the enemy, so against Eldar they're coming in asap and getting a bonus against the Bikes, they're most likely doing the same against Necrons due to Ghost Arks.

As long as any of them are in play, you get a free D3 markerlight hits on any target, which doesn't sound great but remember they automatically happen, meaning there's no roll to hit or anything and can do wonders against invisibility. Additionally they can use it to fire their own Seaker Missiles since they don't actually fire the Markers themselves.

Now let's look at their weapons, assuming you upgrade their Burst Cannon, which I don't know why you wouldn't, to a Missile Pod you have the same number of shots as a Ghostkeel for 150pts. However, you do lose the Ghostkeel secondary weapon, but gain the ability to partially overcharge your main weapon in that you only lose 4 shots for the Large Blast, as the Missile Pod is independent of the Quad Turret, meaning that in the situation of both Over Charging, the Fighter actually has an extra two Missile Pod shots that the Ghostkeel wouldn't. Additionally the Fighter has an extra 6" base range on its weapons than a Ghostkeel.

So ultimately the Fighter is comparable to the Ghostkeel in terms of fire power, but there's a difference in points, one being 150, while the other being 130, now if you account for the two Seekers the Fighter gets at 8 points each, it brings the cost down to 134pts, which is very comparable, and it's not like Seekers are bad by any means, especially when the thing generates its own Markers for them.

That's basically it, in that formation the Fighters really aren't bad, the Ghostkeel is still probably better, but there's definitely the possibility of making Fighters competitive if you wanted. More so, you could even catch some people off guard with them.

I'm liking a DBC Ret Cadre with Drone-Net and OSC, it's very fluffy and crunchy.

SJ

Tinkrr, do you have a list I imagine you need atleast 2000 pts before playing the air cadre? Jeffersonian000 how many point is it, 3 ghost keel one big suit drop or how do you play it? Also marko mander?

I don't really have a list, I was just looking at formations and saw that one and it got me thinking. I think at 1850 it's not out of the question, especially if you're thinking of a large Ghostkeel unit or something as some do. You can even use it as an alternative to Broadsides if you want the mobility and such.

Yes it's 450 points with no other upgrades than the missile pods but here's what you get for 450 points:

18 S7 Ap4 shots at 30" (can be made into 3 Large Blasts at S8 Ap4 with 6 S7 AP4 shots)
D3 Marker Lights on any target you choose (including invisible units)
6 Seeker Missiles

On fliers, that unfortunately have BS3 instead of BS4 like other vehicles and is probably their biggest weakness.

Though points wise it's almost 7 Broadsides or 3 Ghostkeels with some upgrades. Probably still too expensive for how much you get but it's not as far from competitive as some people would assume, as the fire power and survivability is certainly there., If it was possible to drop the Seekers from the cost, then they'd be truly competitive as they are.

1500pts, 2 Ghostkeel, two squads of 3 Stealthsuite, 16 Marker Drones, 1 Riptide, 1 Missile Pod Commander, one squad of Missilesides, and three solo Crisis suits. Add a third Ghostkeel and more Drones to push that up to 1750, or hgher.

I see it as a perimeter patrol calling in reinforcements to spring an ambush. Or something like that.

SJ

Hey all! This may be a YMDC but figured that someone may have either thought of this or tried it...

Has anyone tried to roll on Nova Reactor right before the Riptide Deepstrikes on the board? Nova Reactor is supposed to occur at the beginning of the Riptide's movement phase and whether or not you succeeded might influence where you Deepstrike the unit, assuming you can do that. Couldn't the placement marker and scatter roll be considered part of the Riptide's movement phase? I plan on running the Retaliation Cadre, and never really considered Deepstriking a Riptide before.

Whether I wanted the Str 9 Ordinance Blast or the 12 rending shots... I can see a failed Nova Reactor roll changing my initial plan for the unit.

Wishful thinking?

 Bach wrote:
Hey all! This may be a YMDC but figured that someone may have either thought of this or tried it...

Has anyone taken the Retaliation Cadre and tried to roll on Nova Reactor right before the Riptide Deepstrikes on the board? Nova Reactor is supposed to occur at the beginning of the Riptide's movement phase and whether or not you succeeded might influence where you Deepstrike the unit, assuming you can do that. Couldn't the placement marker and scatter roll be considered part of the Riptide's movement phase?

Whether I wanted the Str 9 Ordinance Blast or the 12 rending shots... I can see a failed Nova Reactor roll changing my initial plan for the unit.

Wishful thinking?

There is a thread in YDMC on this, probably still on the first page. Take note of when you DS and when you use Nova Reactor.