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While I'm sure we will get both a new Apostle and a new Sorcerer, I feel conflicted at the moment about to whom this book belongs.

To me the thumb that we can visibly see looks like it belongs to a terminator if anything. Maybe the artwork of the lantern mace dude is a termie sorcerer? Or maybe multipart with options?

Gotta say I wasn't too interested until the other terminator teases now this might be a day one buy for me

I like the Primaris. I think GW made them because 1) They are closer to the correct scale for space marines, the aesthetic is closer to the fluff. and 2) because they needed something else for all those salty marine players who have all the marines they will ever need, to buy,

Smellingsalts wrote:
I like the Primaris. I think GW made them because 1) They are closer to the correct scale for space marines, the aesthetic is closer to the fluff. and 2) because they needed something else for all those salty marine players who have all the marines they will ever need, to buy,

It’s also bringing in new blood. The new players I see at the shop are picking up Primaris and avoiding the old marines. Gw just needs to finish out the line a bit more.

The highlighting on the thumb makes me think its not painted black, could be a Dark Apostle painted in WB colour scheme?

Smellingsalts wrote:
I like the Primaris. I think GW made them because 1) They are closer to the correct scale for space marines, the aesthetic is closer to the fluff. and 2) because they needed something else for all those salty marine players who have all the marines they will ever need, to buy,

Assuming these Shadow Spear Chaos miniatures will be the same size as the BSF Chaos Marines, the idea of "They're meant to be closer to true-scale" for Primaris doesn't really make sense to me. Compared to non-Space Marine Miniatures they're definitely more accurate in size, but the idea falls apart to me because of the non-Primaris Space Marine miniatures that are still being released, specifically those BSF chaos and now these. Space Marines and Chaos have had a size-increase over the past few years but are still smaller than Primaris from what i've seen of comparison photos, so surely they're just bigger miniatures that represent something that fluff-wise is a bigger Space Marine. If the Primaris are bigger because they're meant to be a miniature version of true-scale Space Marines, then the problem instead moves to them being the wrong size to be Primaris Marines, so now we don't have true-scale Primaris Miniatures and Chaos etc are the wrong size.

 Irbis wrote:
Yup, GW would never tell you to go grab upgrade pack if you want multiple of a gun.

I said Forge World kit. Pay attention.

 Crimson wrote:
I have to say that I find it massively ironic that the same person who constantly cries about GW removing rule options for stuff there are no bits in the kit seems to be unable of gluing a heavy weapon from another kit on a CSM.

I'd prefer if you just addressed me directly than little snide side remarks like this. And the idea that I don't know how to kitbash is ridiculous.

But, as I've found with many people on this subject so far, you're completely missing the point. The point is that if there isn't a kit for something, there's a better chance of that unit rule being removed from the game. If they never make a Havoc kit, there's a good chance of Havocs going away, just like the half-dozen HQ's from various armies that vanished because they don't make that specific kit (think of all the Ork and Marine HQs that don't exist in their Codex these days).

And learn what irony is.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'd prefer if you just addressed me directly than little snide side remarks like this. And the idea that I don't know how to kitbash is ridiculous.

I think it was clear anough that it was directed at you.

And the idea that I don't know how to kitbash is ridiculous.

I must go by what you actually post.

But, as I've found with many people on this subject so far, you're completely missing the point. The point is that if there isn't a kit for something, there's a better chance of that unit rule being removed from the game. If they never make a Havoc kit, there's a good chance of Havocs going away, just like the half-dozen HQ's from various armies that vanished because they don't make that specific kit (think of all the Ork and Marine HQs that don't exist in their Codex these days).

So all this time you actually meant that you don't want Havoc rules to be removed, and don't actually care about the new models? There is no way that anyone could have concluded that by the stuff you actually said.

Children please..

I'e got a hunch we're going to see Havocs. I bet oblits will be a duel kit with mutilators too

Wayniac wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

Voss wrote:
Eh. The problem is the modern HH legion rules don't reflect the fluff that existed when the CSM were created. Limits on weapons date from a time when the terms chapter and legion were used interchangeably, and were more a matter of game balance than fluff.

I don't think retconning the heresy changes into 40k would be a good thing.

Not quite but close enough. When the CSM stuff was really fleshed out in 2nd the idea was that they used more common/older patterns of weapons, which is why they use combi-bolters (precursor to Storm Bolters), autocannon (easier to produce and precursor to assault cannons; IIRC in 2nd autocannons were only on terminators and vehicles), chaos plasma was the only one that could overheat (due to being an older, more dangerous model) and the like. The design goal was to make Chaos use more archaic versions of the weaponry used by the loyalists to show they came from an age 10,000 years ago (and also why Red Corsairs could take loyalist weapons/vehicles for +25% points, showing that they were a newer group)

It's just when they fleshed out Heresy they added all these weird "lost" technologies but never updated the CSM range to have access to those despite having them in the Heresy with the new fluff.

I don't know if close enough is all that correct, to be honest. It's quite accurate that all those things people ask for when they say "but Legions!" is stuff that has been expanded with a healthy dose of retcon added on top a decade later. The theme was there in 2nd ed, as you say, but that really only pertains to the type of equipment, not how that equipment and the Marines are organized.

Not that that matters a lot now. People generally understand the Horus Heresy to be what has been described since the trading card game, and since GW seems to be overhauling Chaos Marines completely anyway they might as well bring modern Chaos Marines in line with that.

Not that that solves the Renegade vs. Legionnaire problem, or the probable underlying problem that the people in the design studio are clueless. Or the way GW gives us slightly upscaled Chaos Marines now but will probably be unwilling to bring their stats in line with Primaris because they'll see Chaos Marines as equivalents of Marines and while those are still around, their spiky cousins can't just outdo them. It's great to get new Chaos models, but I think the problem that will not be overcome with this release is the general attitude in the studio.

I do feel they seem clueless about how to properly handle Chaos. Or they are unwilling to make the split between Renegade vs. Traitor Legion when they are distinctly different despite superficially lookiing the same. What would be cool is making Possessed or Chosen the CSM equivalent to Primaris.

I think its just been a really long time since someone at GW took a step back and said "what is the vision for how these play?" You look at newer armies and there is some central sense of how that army plays and you'll see that theme reinforced and reemphasized throughout. Chaos however suffer from something similar to loyalist marines where GW has largely left that theme for the player to come up with and they try to just give us a volume of units to choose from... additionally chaos more uniquely suffers from "can't be as good as loyalist marines". That mindset might otherwise get overridden if there was a central theme to CSM.

I agree there really should be some distinction between Renegades and Traitor legions. I think part of the disconnect is that GW sees CSM and the former legions very differently than what people want. The main thing many people rather overlook is that GW sees the forces of chaos struggling to maintain much of their technology, they see them as struggling to even have enough ammunition... they see CSM as small groups out for themselves forming up into a warband, rather than an army composed of specialists. In many ways I think GW sees Renegades as a more cohesive of an army than most of the legions, rather than legions each being a monolithic hold over from the heresy era. There is however a lot in between and plenty of room for a vision for the army to work with.


There are many things I think CSM should get, but I don't think CSM should have Primaris stat lines. However I think this speaks to one of the biggest gaps in how CSM are represented by GW and ultimately lead to what is uniquely chaos...

What does being millenniums old mean to a marine? That is just the starting point for much of the CSM legions. Its a type of Veteran-ship that exceeds even the most veteran loyalists. Even without the time dilation of the warp there are basic CSM marines that are older than the oldest loyalist space marines, short of the one Primarch. Almost all the 40k era CSM should be distillation of their legions, they are the best and most ruthless... anyone that's weak would long ago have died... but you would never know it looking at the rules.

What does selling your soul to chaos get you? Is it just corruption? What does it mean to be corrupted? GW treats it almost entirely as a downside. Its more than just marks, mutations, and power... and while it occasionally means death, those marines are dead and not in our army.

What does it mean to be a heretic? GW treats it only as worshiping chaos, but there are a variety of heresies and CSM would likely try them all out just to say they've done it.

Any one of those things could easily justify CSM as being more than they are, and having the stats or rules to rival Primaris.


I think the Thousand Sons and Deathguard codices show how all the former Legions should generally look and function. The legions should each be something on the spectrum of Elite armies making use of what ever crazy means they've found to enhance their capabilities and distinguish themselves, and then supplementing their numbers with lowly mortal chaff. To some degree the Legions shouldn't have any basic tactical csm... they should all be something closer to chosen, possessed, or indoctrinated into one of the cults of the big 4 gods. And while you certainly could set that theme by making representative choices for your CSM, you don't get any of the advantages that are usually rewarded for playing something as thematic.

Short of things like autocannons, those more conventional and more mundane marines are really what distinguish Renegades from the Legions. I don't think they need to build in Traitor Guard and all their vehicles to justify a Renegade marine army. I think there are plenty of facets that GW could choose to emphasize to make them something distinct. Some things would be as easy as recognizing that when a Renegade chapter is described as specializing in drop pod assaults, they should have access to drop pods... bringing in to the Renegade marine army a few more of those units that haven't necessarily broken down yet. Renegades all too often are described as having a deteriorating and ever more crazed psychology... or genetic mutations that have finally come to the surface and crossing that line the Inquisition has drawn... they should have elements and units that end up one step past the Blood Angel Death Company or Space Wolf Wulfen... Firing a plasma gun on overcharge is something risky and I guess only recently sanctioned, but Renegades would do that sort of thing without sanction; they sorta become that part of the narrative that explains why a millennia from now they would no longer have access to all the equipment they've worn out, burnt out, or just can't maintain.

Wayniac wrote:
I do feel they seem clueless about how to properly handle Chaos. Or they are unwilling to make the split between Renegade vs. Traitor Legion when they are distinctly different despite superficially lookiing the same. What would be cool is making Possessed or Chosen the CSM equivalent to Primaris.

It's been an issue for some times (especially since the absolute mess that was the 4th Ed Codex).

Traitor Astartes and the Traitor Legions are two distinct entities, and for a lot of us we think it's weird that once you run to the EoT to escape the Imperium you give up your Land Speeders, Razorbacks, Plasma Cannons, Cyclone Launchers, Multi-Meltas (except on your Dreads, who all go crazy for some reason) and yet somehow find massive stashes of autocannon-based weaponry.

I like the idea of a Traitor Astartes force having to use less and less "premium" equipment, but the whole sale change from "We love the Emperor" to "We hate the Emperor... wait where did my Gravpistol go?" is a little stark. It's certainly an area worth exploring from a fluff, rules and miniature perspective, but we seem to just get more spikey Marines with varying levels of weird mutations.

It's odd given how many types of Loyalist there are, yet Chaos (until recently) has mostly been lumped with a one-size fits all methodology.

 Crimson wrote:
So all this time you actually meant that you don't want Havoc rules to be removed, and don't actually care about the new models? There is no way that anyone could have concluded that by the stuff you actually said.

Still missing the point...

I care about both, because both feed into one another.

No model = no rule.

That is the modern GW standard post-CHS. GW not updating the Havoc kit gives us a greater chance of the unit becoming an 'Index Only' thing until those go out of print. I want new Havoc minis because they don't have a plastic kit, and a plastic Havoc kit would be fantastic.

I think it's a safe bet that Havocs will stay. If they were going to get "indexed" they never would have made it into the 8th CSM Codex.

Worst case, there may not be a kit called "Havocs" but change the way a normal CSM unit is constructed. An option to give up to 4 models (or more!?) heavy weapons, functionally they are now "havocs"

This whole release has me very excited. I've had a Black Legion army on the project list for over 5 years and never got around to it because the range was very "meh" (thankfully DG gave some hope to Legions)

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I think it's a safe bet that Havocs will stay. If they were going to get "indexed" they never would have made it into the 8th CSM Codex.

Worst case, there may not be a kit called "Havocs" but change the way a normal CSM unit is constructed. An option to give up to 4 models (or more!?) heavy weapons, functionally they are now "havocs"

This whole release has me very excited. I've had a Black Legion army on the project list for over 5 years and never got around to it because the range was very "meh" (thankfully DG gave some hope to Legions)

I'm pretty excited to paint something new. I think I've masted painting blue

Yeah... the idea that if Havocs won't get new models right now, they will be squatted seems pretty paranoid. Also, they're literally just CSM with heavy weapons, and I really doubt those ever go away as long as CSM exist.

BrianDavion wrote:
I bet oblits will be a duel kit with mutilators too

If they aren't, I have to give up all hope that GW makes any sense anymore. That seems like a no-brainer dual-kit.

-

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I do feel they seem clueless about how to properly handle Chaos. Or they are unwilling to make the split between Renegade vs. Traitor Legion when they are distinctly different despite superficially lookiing the same. What would be cool is making Possessed or Chosen the CSM equivalent to Primaris.

It's been an issue for some times (especially since the absolute mess that was the 4th Ed Codex).

Traitor Astartes and the Traitor Legions are two distinct entities, and for a lot of us we think it's weird that once you run to the EoT to escape the Imperium you give up your Land Speeders, Razorbacks, Plasma Cannons, Cyclone Launchers, Multi-Meltas (except on your Dreads, who all go crazy for some reason) and yet somehow find massive stashes of autocannon-based weaponry.

Are you saying you don't remember the story where a Techmarine goes into the Fortress Monastarius armory and finds several crates marked "In Case of Heresy"?

GW has seemingly hand waved away the differences by insisting that those are pieces of technology that are harder to maintain... which might be a plausible explanation if it weren't for the fact CSM still have ships, teleporters, and any number of more advance technologies they're able to keep operating. I still find it funny when GW did something for Crimson Slaughter and stated they specialized in Drop Pod assaults... yet no drop pods to be found.

You would think with the distinction between styles of play this edition, GW would have brought back the old 2nd ed rule where we "Can take any unit from the Space Marine codex" for a markup as a Narrative only option. The loss of that is kinda the source for some of the logic gaps in CSM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I bet oblits will be a duel kit with mutilators too

I they aren't, I have to give up all hope that GW makes any sense anymore. That seems like a no-brainer dual-kit.
-

I'm probably in the minority... but I hope they just fold the two units together... and we go back to Oblits with equally adaptable ranged and close combat capabilities.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And lose Goodwin's classic Phoenix Lords?

Never!!!

You've had like 20 years to buy them. If you don't already own them, buy them now. Let everyone else have cool new sculpts.

Nice addition to the figures that come in the Blackstone Fortress set...

I'll definatly be getting in on the chaos side of this set, Stay tuned in the Swap section....

There's a lot of things that Chaos needs to represent, and sometimes they can all show up in the same list (or even detachment.)

1) Original traitor marines
2) Renegade marines
3) New Chaos marines

Cult Legions should be all 1). Renegades should be mostly 2 and maybe some 1) as elites. Iron Warriors are 1 and 3. Black Legion could be all 3.

The best way to resolve the Original Traitors issue is to have them be troops in original traitor armies, much like Cult Marines currently are. Armies like Black Legion and perhaps even IW should be able to have them as troops, or at least as elites with ObSec.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I do feel they seem clueless about how to properly handle Chaos. Or they are unwilling to make the split between Renegade vs. Traitor Legion when they are distinctly different despite superficially lookiing the same. What would be cool is making Possessed or Chosen the CSM equivalent to Primaris.

It's been an issue for some times (especially since the absolute mess that was the 4th Ed Codex).

Traitor Astartes and the Traitor Legions are two distinct entities, and for a lot of us we think it's weird that once you run to the EoT to escape the Imperium you give up your Land Speeders, Razorbacks, Plasma Cannons, Cyclone Launchers, Multi-Meltas (except on your Dreads, who all go crazy for some reason) and yet somehow find massive stashes of autocannon-based weaponry.

Are you saying you don't remember the story where a Techmarine goes into the Fortress Monastarius armory and finds several crates marked "In Case of Heresy"?

GW has seemingly hand waved away the differences by insisting that those are pieces of technology that are harder to maintain... which might be a plausible explanation if it weren't for the fact CSM still have ships, teleporters, and any number of more advance technologies they're able to keep operating. I still find it funny when GW did something for Crimson Slaughter and stated they specialized in Drop Pod assaults... yet no drop pods to be found.

You would think with the distinction between styles of play this edition, GW would have brought back the old 2nd ed rule where we "Can take any unit from the Space Marine codex" for a markup as a Narrative only option. The loss of that is kinda the source for some of the logic gaps in CSM.

Yeah I really don't get why GW does what they do with Chaos, and try to shoehorn warbands and lump traitors from the heresy and recently turned chapters into the same bucket. They should absolutely split them because those factions do not behave like each other. Same like they have all but gotten rid of the stuff that made each Legion unique; it's why I pine for the days of 3.5 because despite all its brokenness that's what made that book so great: No legion played like the other. Your legion made a statement about you, and what your playstyle was and how it behaved. For some reason ever since 4th edition they abandoned everything that made 3.5 good and doubled-down on what the 3.0 codex did, make Chaos bland and uninspiring.

I really chalk it up to the fact that nobody there is passionate like Pete Haines was about Chaos. Sure he made his Iron Warriors a little too good, but you could tell by reading the Codex that he genuinely was a Chaos player through and through and wanted Chaos to reflect the fluff as much as possible, which is why that book IMHO stands as one of if not the best codex GW has ever put out just by how much it captured the feel of the army.

That's what they need to bring back. Bring back what made th Traitor Legions feel like veterans of the long war, the bitter memories of days remembered only in legends, the fallen angels thought banished forever to the underworld. And keep Renegades as their own thing. Even add a rule letting them use codex space marines with some drawbacks. But renegades are not traitor legions ,and shoulnd't be using the same things with the possible exception of the Red Corsairs who have been around a while.

 boundless08 wrote:
To me the thumb that we can visibly see looks like it belongs to a terminator if anything. Maybe the artwork of the lantern mace dude is a termie sorcerer?

That is a good observiation; the hand is clearly a bit bigger than the current CSM. However, if you have a look at the new CSM in the original post, they also seem to have bigger hands than before.

So I guess this is a power armored sorcerer / apostle.

This release looks like it is going to be absolutly nuts. I have no qualms about removing all my old CSMs for new plastics!

This release has felt pretty dry. All there's been lately was photos on the rumor engine. I need more than a picture of a dudes arm or a book.

Mostly I just wanna know the contents of the box since this is looking to be a massive chaos release and I think there's no way all this can fit in one box.

New summomer
New chaos marines
Most likely new possessed
New obliterators/mutilators
The tick
Possible new terminators

So unless this is a super lopsided box I can't see all this going in the box

 fraser1191 wrote:
This release has felt pretty dry. All there's been lately was photos on the rumor engine. I need more than a picture of a dudes arm or a book.

Mostly I just wanna know the contents of the box since this is looking to be a massive chaos release and I think there's no way all this can fit in one box.

New summomer
New chaos marines
Most likely new possessed
New obliterators/mutilators
The tick
Possible new terminators

So unless this is a super lopsided box I can't see all this going in the box

I think a lot of this newer stuff isn't part of Shadow Spear. It's probably a further Chaos release for the second vigilus book. These terminators or whatever they are will probably come out when Abbadon does.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
This release has felt pretty dry. All there's been lately was photos on the rumor engine. I need more than a picture of a dudes arm or a book.

Mostly I just wanna know the contents of the box since this is looking to be a massive chaos release and I think there's no way all this can fit in one box.

New summomer
New chaos marines
Most likely new possessed
New obliterators/mutilators
The tick
Possible new terminators

So unless this is a super lopsided box I can't see all this going in the box

I think a lot of this newer stuff isn't part of Shadow Spear. It's probably a further Chaos release for the second vigilus book. These terminators or whatever they are will probably come out when Abbadon does.

my guess is Shadowspear at the start of the month, and then a whole chaos range throughout march, likely capped by Abbaddon the dispoiler. during the maonth, or the next month we'll get a splash release of the vanguard primaris.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
This release has felt pretty dry. All there's been lately was photos on the rumor engine. I need more than a picture of a dudes arm or a book.

Mostly I just wanna know the contents of the box since this is looking to be a massive chaos release and I think there's no way all this can fit in one box.

New summomer
New chaos marines
Most likely new possessed
New obliterators/mutilators
The tick
Possible new terminators

So unless this is a super lopsided box I can't see all this going in the box

I think a lot of this newer stuff isn't part of Shadow Spear. It's probably a further Chaos release for the second vigilus book. These terminators or whatever they are will probably come out when Abbadon does.

my guess is Shadowspear at the start of the month, and then a whole chaos range throughout march, likely capped by Abbaddon the dispoiler. during the maonth, or the next month we'll get a splash release of the vanguard primaris.

Oh there's too many kits for it to be one box release which is crazy.

Well theres some sort of Megaboralis event going on March 15th and 16th at the citadel. So I don't know if they expect players to have these new models for it or not.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
This release has felt pretty dry. All there's been lately was photos on the rumor engine. I need more than a picture of a dudes arm or a book.

Mostly I just wanna know the contents of the box since this is looking to be a massive chaos release and I think there's no way all this can fit in one box.

New summomer
New chaos marines
Most likely new possessed
New obliterators/mutilators
The tick
Possible new terminators

So unless this is a super lopsided box I can't see all this going in the box

I think a lot of this newer stuff isn't part of Shadow Spear. It's probably a further Chaos release for the second vigilus book. These terminators or whatever they are will probably come out when Abbadon does.

Could potentially even be a new SM / CSM codex. They were the first ones out of the gate so could use an update and a new model range is a good excuse for a new book.

 NurglesR0T wrote:


Could potentially even be a new SM / CSM codex. They were the first ones out of the gate so could use an update and a new model range is a good excuse for a new book.

At this point it would be super weird if GW didn't release an updated codex. Rules often sell models; I'm sure GW is aware of that.

A reason to believe there will be no new codex is that the Tick seems to be the sole new unit, whose rules could just as well be included in the Shadow Spear box.

 Darkseid wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:


Could potentially even be a new SM / CSM codex. They were the first ones out of the gate so could use an update and a new model range is a good excuse for a new book.

At this point it would be super weird if GW didn't release an updated codex. Rules often sell models; I'm sure GW is aware of that.

A reason to believe there will be no new codex is that the Tick seems to be the sole new unit, whose rules could just as well be included in the Shadow Spear box.

Supposedly the Daemon Sorcerer and the Possessed are also new units. But those are also both in the Shadowspear box.