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Dudeface wrote: It's just... all over the place. Why is the carnifex option central still, whilst the warriors got blatted?
Melee weapons got consolidated all over, not just tyranids. Crushing claws survived because they're the faction equivalent of a power fist.
Ranged weapons largely stayed, unless they were really special already, like the raveners.
The biggest problem with the carnifex is if you aren't going dakka or crushing claws, you're dumb to take one since the S-K is so much better at talons (and bio-plasma). (Points may adjust that feeling, but there's a huge difference between the carnifex and scream-killer).
Dudeface wrote: We can safely extrapolate that chaosistency is officially in charge of everything now.
I'm counting all of this as evidence that they half-assed the Index cards even more than usual, and that the first revision when the codex comes around is going to replace much of them.
Call it cope if you want to, but that's my take on it.
Dudeface wrote: We can safely extrapolate that chaosistency is officially in charge of everything now.
I'm counting all of this as evidence that they half-assed the Index cards even more than usual, and that the first revision when the codex comes around is going to replace much of them.
Call it cope if you want to, but that's my take on it.
I... don't get it. I get that some people don't like it, but this is what they've been advertising since the announcement. Its consistent with everything they've said and everything they've shown off. This isn't half-assed, this is the design goal. This is 10th edition, and what everyone should expect going forward.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/08 13:27:09
Dudeface wrote: It's just... all over the place. Why is the carnifex option central still, whilst the warriors got blatted?
Melee weapons got consolidated all over, not just tyranids. Crushing claws survived because they're the faction equivalent of a power fist.
Ranged weapons largely stayed, unless they were really special already, like the raveners.
The biggest problem with the carnifex is if you aren't going dakka or crushing claws, you're dumb to take one since the S-K is so much better at talons (and bio-plasma). (Points may adjust that feeling, but there's a huge difference between the carnifex and scream-killer).
Scything talons, extra scything talons and claws is a very different implementation to those seen on the tyrant who shares a lot of the same weapons options. Likewise why not consolidate down talons and extra talons? It's just a bit all over the place.
Dudeface wrote: We can safely extrapolate that chaosistency is officially in charge of everything now.
I'm counting all of this as evidence that they half-assed the Index cards even more than usual, and that the first revision when the codex comes around is going to replace much of them.
Call it cope if you want to, but that's my take on it.
I... don't get it. I get that some people don't like it, but this is what they've been advertising since the announcement. Its consistent with everything they've said and everything they've shown off. This isn't half-assed, this is the design goal. This is 10th edition, and what everyone should expect going forward.
I disagree, there's a level of level application of change they haven't done. There's some models that have options beyond what others do for seemingly no reason. I'm not bothered by the warriors being split, I'm not fussed about the melee weapons being consolidated even if they aren't on the fex. I am bothered that the relatively similar ranged bioweapons didn't get consolidated down, while the melee did for example. Raveners got their thorax guns consolidated down, which were previously the same basic weapon choices as the warriors.
Dudeface wrote: We can safely extrapolate that chaosistency is officially in charge of everything now.
I'm counting all of this as evidence that they half-assed the Index cards even more than usual, and that the first revision when the codex comes around is going to replace much of them.
Call it cope if you want to, but that's my take on it.
I... don't get it. I get that some people don't like it, but this is what they've been advertising since the announcement. Its consistent with everything they've said and everything they've shown off. This isn't half-assed, this is the design goal. This is 10th edition, and what everyone should expect going forward.
Nah, missing models entirely is not a design goal, it's a symptom of a pretty shoddy work process. As are other faults on datasheets, like some demons missing the Psyker keyword even though they have [Psychic] weapons and abilities, which the core rules say can only be used by Psykers. I'm not lamenting the reduction of options etc., as these are clearly actually design goals (whit which one does not have to agree, but needs to accept that they exist), just the ommissions and generally unfinished nature of this particular product. But as i said, these will (imho of course) get replaced in a couple of months anyway, so i won't sweat it just yet.
Dudeface wrote: It's just... all over the place. Why is the carnifex option central still, whilst the warriors got blatted?
Melee weapons got consolidated all over, not just tyranids. Crushing claws survived because they're the faction equivalent of a power fist.
Ranged weapons largely stayed, unless they were really special already, like the raveners.
The biggest problem with the carnifex is if you aren't going dakka or crushing claws, you're dumb to take one since the S-K is so much better at talons (and bio-plasma). (Points may adjust that feeling, but there's a huge difference between the carnifex and scream-killer).
Scything talons, extra scything talons and claws is a very different implementation to those seen on the tyrant who shares a lot of the same weapons options. Likewise why not consolidate down talons and extra talons? It's just a bit all over the place.
Huh? The tyrant is the same (give or take less weapon options and a better default set). Its not quite as on the nose with 'extra scything talons,' but that's what the monstrous talons are (they're a bad option that exist so people don't have to pull apart their models, even though they should, in the sense that double talons are bad on both models).
The winged tyrant is obviously locked into the leg talons.
Talons and extra talons on the carnifex are there for the current builds. There's a big difference between 6 attacks and 8, or crushing claws +4 talon attacks rather than 2.
Dudeface wrote: We can safely extrapolate that chaosistency is officially in charge of everything now.
I'm counting all of this as evidence that they half-assed the Index cards even more than usual, and that the first revision when the codex comes around is going to replace much of them.
Call it cope if you want to, but that's my take on it.
I... don't get it. I get that some people don't like it, but this is what they've been advertising since the announcement. Its consistent with everything they've said and everything they've shown off. This isn't half-assed, this is the design goal. This is 10th edition, and what everyone should expect going forward.
Nah, missing models entirely is not a design goal, it's a symptom of a pretty shoddy work process. As are other faults on datasheets, like some demons missing the Psyker keyword even though they have [Psychic] weapons and abilities, which the core rules say can only be used by Psykers. I'm not lamenting the reduction of options etc., as these are clearly actually design goals (whit which one does not have to agree, but needs to accept that they exist), just the ommissions and generally unfinished nature of this particular product. But as i said, these will (imho of course) get replaced in a couple of months anyway, so i won't sweat it just yet.
Ah. I wasn't thinking of a few typos and what seems like a last-minute rules redesign on the neurogaunts.
I was going with the more general complaints and the idea that we'll magically see a 'for realsies' version of warriors, carnfiexes and etc in... ~3 months.
Especially since for most armies, the turnaround won't be 3 months. They'll be using the initial cards for a year or two, with three for some of truly unlucky.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2023/06/08 13:50:12
When I have more time - and maybe when we have more cards - I'll start looking for rules which appear as frequently as some of these abilities and therefore could have been Abilities/USRs as well.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
6 total instances of re-rolls in the index. Perfectly Adapted Enhancement, OOE, Melee Warriors get two, Genestealers, and... Exocrine. Speaking of Exocrine, if the points aren't too bad, I think they're gonna be kinda auto-include again.
Also, once again points dependent, Biovores are looking to be pretty good in the index. d3 shots with heavy, blast, indirect fire and devastating wounds.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/08 14:05:40
Quite liking the Lictor. Fairly fragile, but with Precision, a decent number of attacks at a reasonable Strength, D2 and -2 Save Mod it should be some pause for thought against all but Special Characters.
I think I’d want to send in an escort unit should it be looking to scoff someone within a unit, but depending on points and exactly what it is I intend to scoff, I may be OK with using it as a disposable asset.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Nice to see they're further "balancing" Hive Guard because they were very powerful in 8th Edition.
Hive Guard look pretty ok to me? Don't need LOS to kick off overwatch so it's basically a free shooting phase with no pentalty.
Dude, c'mon. There's plenty to like in this book. This is not the battle you have to fight. Hive Guard went from 2 shots of S8 -2 D d3 shooting twice with no LOS at the height of their power to 4 shots of S5 -1 D1. It's just not worth defending. They got nerfed in the 9e codex, and while they get more shots now, I don't see how you'd call this anything other than another nerf. They picked up some anti-infantry capabilities that Nids don't really need and are likely done more efficiently by a number of other units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/08 14:12:34
Ok, so, I've gone over the whole thing now. I was worried about what we'd lose. It never occurred to me just how much we'd lose.
From the top:
1. The Heavy Venom Cannon has the same strength as the Venom Cannon. The only difference is D3 vs D2. They both have d3 shots. feth me that's bad (I've seen some people start calling it the "Casino Cannon" ). 2. Winged Tyranid Primes are a separate choice, but Tyranid Primes are not for some reason. 3. Tervigons have lost their ability to be shielded near units of Termagants. Given that shielding characters is written right into the core rules you'd think that'd make the jump over as you wouldn't need special rules, you just give it Lone Operative near Termagants. But apparently not. 4. Tyranid Primes are now sergeants in Warrior Squads. That invalidates all sorts of minis I own... 5. Tyranid Warriors are down from 9 to 6 per unit. 6. Tyranid Warriors lost all of their melee weapon options. 7. Termagants and Hormagaunts down to 20 max per unit. 8. Lictors now come in units of one (but I think we all expected that!). 9. Pyrovores are just kinda lame now. Hopefully a new model (and rules) are in their future. 10. Haruspex no longer heals himself by eating people, which is a shame. 11. The Neurogaunt Nodebeast still doesn't do anything. 12. Neurothropes are now Sergeants in Zoanthrope squads. 13. Genestealers are kinda just kinda lame now. Hopefully a new model (and rules) are in their future. 14. Raveners lost all their ranged weapon options. 15. Trygon Prime just... isn't there anymore! It's gone. Completely removed. Doesn't exist. 16. Carnifexes are back to being as skilled in melee as Guardsmen, hitting on a 4+ with everything. They also have 2 fewer wounds than Screamer Killers. 17. Thornbacks are... also gone! No longer in the unit list. 18. Hive Guard, once the deadliest and spammiest unit in 8th Edition, were nerfed into the ground in 9th. But, GW's memory still ain't so hot, so it's time to punish them once again for being powerful 2 editions ago. Somehow Palpatine has returned they found a way to nerf Impaler Cannons even more, less strength, damage and AP. The only saving grace is they had the presence of mind to make them Heavy Weapons. 19. Tyrannocytes lost all their different weapons, and apparently can't arrive past turn 3 even though that isn't part of the reserves rules in 10th anymore... 20. Sporocyst lost all its weapon options, and it can't Deep Strike. WTF??? :wat: 21. One I missed at the start: The Broodlord doesn't have Synapse. Uh-oh... 22. And finally, the following units lost their 2+ saves: Exocrines. Haruspex. Tyrant Guard.
To be fair, Tyrant Guard are up to T8, which is pretty nifty. Makes me wonder how tough the Wraithlord will end up being.
Dysartes wrote: When I have more time - and maybe when we have more cards - I'll start looking for rules which appear as frequently as some of these abilities and therefore could have been Abilities/USRs as well.
Not if I beat you to it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/06/08 14:20:31
Tsagualsa wrote: Old One Eye can lead Carnifexes, but not Screamer-Killers, despite being a Screamer-Killer himself.
The Neurogaunt Nodebeast is still missing both profile and abilities.
Good job, GW, good job...
I think it's just the unit leader, like the Tyranid Warrior Prime. It doesn't get any special rules or abilities, but it's probably shown separately in the instructions.
Dudeface wrote: We can safely extrapolate that chaosistency is officially in charge of everything now.
I'm counting all of this as evidence that they half-assed the Index cards even more than usual, and that the first revision when the codex comes around is going to replace much of them.
Call it cope if you want to, but that's my take on it.
I... don't get it. I get that some people don't like it, but this is what they've been advertising since the announcement. Its consistent with everything they've said and everything they've shown off. This isn't half-assed, this is the design goal. This is 10th edition, and what everyone should expect going forward.
This is my take too. We saw the beginnings of it with the new Chaos and IG books last year and this is the obvious continuation of that same trajectory.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Dude, c'mon. There's plenty to like in this book. This is not the battle you have to fight. Hive Guard went from 2 shots of S8 -2 D d3 shooting twice with no LOS at the height of their power to 4 shots of S5 -1 D1. It's just not worth defending. They got nerfed in the 9e codex, and while they get more shots now, I don't see how you'd call this anything other than another nerf. They picked up some anti-infantry capabilities that Nids don't really need and are likely done more efficiently by a number of other units.
Yes, it's a different gun. They also flipped the ranges on them. It just serves the roll differently now. Just because it's nerfed doesn't mean it's bad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/08 14:18:26
These big PDFs of datacards feel virtually unusuable. I am baffled why this is considered an improvement. I can at least see an argument that the printed versions can be flipped over, but in this format it just feels like the layout is half finished.
As suspected, I feel like they are getting the balance of where rules sits wrong here. When people wanted the game to be simpler I think what they meant is "you should be able to look at a model on the tabletop and have a reasonable stab at what it is able to do without an encyclopaedic knowledge of the faction's latest codex."
If anything, it feels like we have gone backwards on that. Boneswords now have different weapon profiles to claws on some models but not others, and I need to look at paper to find out which. Meanwhile the list of stratagems and special rules is... still actually quite long? This is more cognitive load of stuff to remember, not less. I don't think they're really meeting the design goals of this edition.
Parasite of Mortrex also lost Synapse. That's gotta be a mistake, right?
Also, I'm sad about the Toxicrene literally being a wet noodle monster. He deserved better.
That said, I'm really not bearish on these rules. There's plenty to like here. And I was already reconciled to plenty of the consolidation/forgetfulness, it's just what GW does.
Well there goes the idea of each detachment defining what's BattleLine...
Not sure why you thought that was going to be the case.
Detachments change 3 things: detachment rule, strats, enhancements. Datacards are universal for that faction.
:wat:
