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Well, that and price, which is always a'climbing

 Altruizine wrote:


edit: I have never heard of any store doing an extra discount, and in fact I thought that the allowable level of discount was governed by terms of trade with GW.

My FLGS did this with Vermintide a week after release with the same refund in store credit for people who had already bought theirs. Incidentally, they also saw a massive uptick in AoS sales and players when they did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Anyone seeing these discounts stateside?

My FLGS is selling it for $250, which isn't too bad.

They also sell online and ship.

Once one big online seller cuts prices there is very strong pressure for all others to follow or loose business

(especially as we're still in a preorder period and cancelling an order made from a more expensive place to let you re-order from the new cheap place is going to be fairly simple)

My general take is that this release has been mismanaged.

I mean I am and am-not the target audience. I don't play Horus Heresy. I've flirted with it through 1.0, and 2.0 at least interested me as a relatively cheap (compared with old forgeworld) way to get in. It was interesting to see all the different faction rules, and the models could - at a push - be used in 40k if you wanted. I can see why the product flew off shelves relatively quickly.

By contrast, 3.0 just seems... weird? I don't know if its a function of getting old (40 next year) - but I find it really hard to follow the rules releases. Maybe its because HH and 40k have no diverged to the point of being a different language. The pitch of the various legions doesn't seem half as compelling. Then you have the models themselves which don't seem as impressive - and certainly aren't as obviously transferrable to other games.

Maybe if you are deep into HH it makes more sense - but then you presumably have an army, and another wardrobe full of basic Marines presumably isn't a big attraction.

So... yeah. I'm not sure "edition churn" is that bad - but I'm not really convinced for someone starting out this is an upgrade over 2.0.

Tyel wrote:
My general take is that this release has been mismanaged.

I mean I am and am-not the target audience. I don't play Horus Heresy. I've flirted with it through 1.0, and 2.0 at least interested me as a relatively cheap (compared with old forgeworld) way to get in. It was interesting to see all the different faction rules, and the models could - at a push - be used in 40k if you wanted. I can see why the product flew off shelves relatively quickly.

By contrast, 3.0 just seems... weird? I don't know if its a function of getting old (40 next year) - but I find it really hard to follow the rules releases. Maybe its because HH and 40k have no diverged to the point of being a different language. The pitch of the various legions doesn't seem half as compelling. Then you have the models themselves which don't seem as impressive - and certainly aren't as obviously transferrable to other games.

Maybe if you are deep into HH it makes more sense - but then you presumably have an army, and another wardrobe full of basic Marines presumably isn't a big attraction.

So... yeah. I'm not sure "edition churn" is that bad - but I'm not really convinced for someone starting out this is an upgrade over 2.0.

It's not due to your age, rules release-fatigue is a universal thing regardless of age. It's the main reason I quit 40k, AoS, Underworlds as I just couldn't keep up with the sheer volume of releases and rules changes.

Definitely in a similar boat to yourself. Flirted with HH across the various editions, even have a few characters and stuff in a "maybe someday" stash but 3.0 isn't grabbing me the same way as previous editions. It's also due to the desire to have rulebooks in hand that aren't outdated so quickly.

What they had here - minus the Dreadnought and Quad-turret - was the contents of a board game, like Calth or Prospero.

30K itself would have been better off with a new soft-edition that's backwards compatible with 2nd edition rules.

On top of release fatigue and any specific preference-related issues one might have with the 3.0 design choices, there's the fact that the 3.0 rules are just kind of tiring to read. They're written like contract law documents and we pay people thousands of pounds to read those for us because they're so mind-numbing, so an entire ruleset written in that way is hardly an appealing prospect.

2.5 with what is essentially an integrated FAQ is all that Heresy needed. New models have been released with campaign books, including plastics like Solar Aux.

Saturnine should have been a campaign supplement, not a whole new edition.

^Agreed. Heresy was low maintenance and that was part of its appeal. 1-2 books/yr, and a periodic FOMO box. Wasnt a big hit on my wallet, wasnt a mental drain to keep up with it, didnt feel like a chase, etc. Now theyve already announced the next journal and the first one hasnt even released yet. Its a big jump in how aggressive they are about pushing the game and im starting to think im going to have to cut back on one of these games because its not sustainable to try to play them all anymore.

chaos0xomega wrote:
^Agreed. Heresy was low maintenance and that was part of its appeal. 1-2 books/yr, and a periodic FOMO box. Wasnt a big hit on my wallet, wasnt a mental drain to keep up with it, didnt feel like a chase, etc. Now theyve already announced the next journal and the first one hasnt even released yet. Its a big jump in how aggressive they are about pushing the game and im starting to think im going to have to cut back on one of these games because its not sustainable to try to play them all anymore.

Aside from the fluff changes I wasn't a fan of, this was also why I eventually just gave up on Nucromunda. GW can never seem to settle into a happy medium, it's either stuff gets left as abandonware for years on end or everything's a constant machinegun of Content(tm) that endlessly upends the status quo and makes even houseruling etc difficult because there's no stable base to work from and nobody has enough time to figure out what the actual problems are before the next Thing is being touted(which some people inexplicably continue believing will fix things *this* time). I suppose they have to be given credit for at least choosing one mode - slopstream - over the other rather than their old way of slopstream for popular armies and stagnation for the rest.

Heresy was the last "supported" GW game I play having already withdrawn to old editions of the SGs, WHFB, and 40K(and AT, which is functionally a "dead" game now it's subordinate to LIgma) and I suspect my 30K habits will follow suit now. It's a shame but hey, if GW don't want my money I'm happy to give it to third parties, STL sculptors, and myself to build terrain.

GW is stepping over pounds to get to pence....

Found that i buy more stuff when left to my own devices rather than being "TOLD" that I need to buy more.

Low maintenance was the MAIN appeal for me. Dumping 40k for 30k was an immense relief and I was genuinely excited for 2.0 when it dropped and spent a chunk o' change on new stuff.(most is assembled waiting for paint). Played a ton of games, different events and enjoyed both my IIIrd & XVIIITH and had just started on a Slanneshi Militia & daemons list....

3.0 landed like a wet fart in church for me and now has taken any interest in the game to basically negative amounts.

chaos0xomega wrote:
^Agreed. Heresy was low maintenance and that was part of its appeal. 1-2 books/yr, and a periodic FOMO box. Wasnt a big hit on my wallet, wasnt a mental drain to keep up with it, didnt feel like a chase, etc. Now theyve already announced the next journal and the first one hasnt even released yet. Its a big jump in how aggressive they are about pushing the game and im starting to think im going to have to cut back on one of these games because its not sustainable to try to play them all anymore.

Reading this captures how I feel. I've got plenty of models to keep me going for 1st and 2nd editions of the rules. Baring the odd purchase, I'm off the treadmill. I'll stick with Epic Scale and Necromunda as my last hook to GW for now.

I've spent the last three weeks actively scouring eBay and other sale sites and I haven't seen a spike in the number of HH armies for sale.

Based upon what I've read on various threads on a few sites, I was expecting a giant angry model sell off... so far, it looks like the usual volume.

People might not be happy but they aren't abandoning ship; they just aren't getting on the new one as fast as GW and stores were hoping.

What's likely happening is people dislike a lot of the changes and want to see more solid information not just pre-release info. So more are sitting on the fence. Furthermore they are more likely to just drift into another game and come back to 30K or stick to the current edition and not step up to the new one.

It's the one defence of the 3 year cycle that you can say if GW mucks it up this bad at least in 3 years they might fix it

 Overread wrote:
People might not be happy but they aren't abandoning ship; they just aren't getting on the new one as fast as GW and stores were hoping.

What's likely happening is people dislike a lot of the changes and want to see more solid information not just pre-release info. So more are sitting on the fence. Furthermore they are more likely to just drift into another game and come back to 30K or stick to the current edition and not step up to the new one.

It's the one defence of the 3 year cycle that you can say if GW mucks it up this bad at least in 3 years they might fix it

Yeah, I hardly ever sell off minis any more. It's easier to just hold onto them and later either dust everything off or strip and reuse it for a new army idea.

My Iron Warriors got packed up when I bought a new house last year, they're still sitting in the packing boxes and probably will for a while.

Honestly I think the only time we've seen people abandon models en-mass (not just mothball a game in storage) is when the Old World was killed off.

Before that you've a few other game kills offs like Epic 40K and such where I suspect we also saw it, but probably way less because those were in the infancy of the internet so we didn't have the rapid larger scale information exchange that we do now

 Overread wrote:
Honestly I think the only time we've seen people abandon models en-mass (not just mothball a game in storage) is when the Old World was killed off.

Before that you've a few other game kills offs like Epic 40K and such where I suspect we also saw it, but probably way less because those were in the infancy of the internet so we didn't have the rapid larger scale information exchange that we do now

They also would not have been able to find anyone to buy their stuff without the internet.

Those collections would've been for the attics.

Personal view here.
I am off the HH rules treadmill.
I have the books I need for 2.0, and I have a complete pdf library of the 1.0 as well.
There is little I need to purchase direct from GW to keep going with my Slow Grow Legions of Imperial Fists and Word Bearers projects.
Beyond any plastic versions of existing things, I won't buy anything new. Definitely no books.

But my projects are mine.
Whether they see gameplay or not, I will keep going with them when I want a break from other universes/eras, or a particular book inspires me again.
So no, I wouldn't expect to see firesales from dissatisfied HH players.

I would expect the most disgruntled would form splinter groups and events in the ruleset they prefer.
Heresy is already such a departure from mainline 40k, separated from the meta chasing of the tournament crowd.
It's much easier to continue and ignore pressure from GW itself to change rulesets.
As others have said, the low maintenance aspect is part of the appeal.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I've spent the last three weeks actively scouring eBay and other sale sites and I haven't seen a spike in the number of HH armies for sale.

Based upon what I've read on various threads on a few sites, I was expecting a giant angry model sell off... so far, it looks like the usual volume.

People dump 40k armies because they buy into the Meta (lmao) and then get rid of it because the Meta (again lmao) changes.
People dumped WHFB armies because either real or imagined, the game and the setting had lost full support from GW.

Heresy is still getting new models and new lore, that's all things people can still invest in, even if they hate the rules.

So many factors at play here - who know how many play into what we are or are not seeing?

But it is fun to speculate.

And for someone to tell me where to get 30% - 35% off in the USA, please!

Also, I do love the Saturnine stuff but WHOA, the Scale Creep is real!

Ok, so you still remain unconviced about the chatter I reported about earlier. Fair enough. I suppose I wont be vindicated until you see AOS levels of surplus stock in the stores. Lets get back to this in a few weeks.

My intuition tells me that GW sales are highly concentrated to the first weeks around preorder and release. If significant amount of product doesn't ship by that time, new shiny will already have taken its place and overall sales will be significantly lessened. This is why we're seeing these discounts now. But hey, these are just my personal musings, I've never been a GW till monkey or anything

 Alpharius wrote:
Also, I do love the Saturnine stuff but WHOA, the Scale Creep is real!

Shoulder embiggening technology stops for no man!

Remeber my Words, TOW will see tbhis in 1-2 two Years too... I can see it, and i don't like it.

Maybe in 5 Years, maybe in 10 Years. GW will sooner or later shoot themself into the Leg with their even faster and faster going release mill und thinning down of their Rulesets.... They also can't sell new Stuff to new People for eternity and all time...

I stay wqith 2nd Edition HH, I stay mit LI.

Completely unfounded but Ive heard that GW retailers typically buy their stock at 45% off RRP.
If trends don't reverse course we might feasibly see 40% off from retailers wanting to recoup losses, especially if there's any boxes left by Black Friday.

RazorEdge wrote:
Remeber my Words, TOW will see tbhis in 1-2 two Years too... I can see it, and i don't like it.

that we are going to see a 2nd Edition with a purge on legacy to make room for the very new armies (and current legacy are removed and current old armies become legacy and being removed in 3rd) was obvious early on
something like this should not be a surprise, more like the other way around that if it doesn't happen

Tyel wrote:
Maybe its because HH and 40k have no diverged to the point of being a different language. The pitch of the various legions doesn't seem half as compelling. Then you have the models themselves which don't seem as impressive - and certainly aren't as obviously transferrable to other games.

Maybe if you are deep into HH it makes more sense - but then you presumably have an army, and another wardrobe full of basic Marines presumably isn't a big attraction.

I was in the group of wanting HH 2.0 to be more like 9th edition 40k at the time, as I liked how streamlined it was over 1.0 HH. I also would have preferred that HH 3.0 be more like 10th edition, which I very much enjoy. Alas, we got what looks like a more complicated edition to HH 2.0 at initial glance.

My main army is relatively untouched. I can still take my 3500+ points of Imperial Fists to AdeptiCon as is and play in games of 1500-3000 with few changes. However, I've lost any enthusiasm to finish my Sons of Horus. I'll add the new Dreadnought to my IFs and maybe some terminators. I guess I'm in the cranky Old Timers group mentioned a few pages back. I'll play it, but grudgingly. Because that's what my friends at AdeptiCon are probably doing.

As for the sales, I'm not surprised. 2.0 did have a lot of enthusiasm at the time of release, and I saw more and more new players each year at AdeptiCon. 3.0 seemed to be met with a loud chorus of "Huh?" "What?" Just my anecdotal observations. I'll share my experiences at AdeptiCon next year. I still hope we continue to draw more players. The events there are run very well, at any rate.

Da Boss wrote:I was strongly tempted by the age of darkness box because it seemed like a great deal. I held off because I don't really need more marines and the tank though cool is imo impractically huge, but I did consider buying it a good few times.

With this box I was honestly never that interested. I like the armour on the marines more in this one, but I dislike the Saturnine designs on everything but the dreadnaught and hate the scale creep involved, and I'm not at all interested in gun turrets. Even if I liked that stuff, I still felt it was a worse deal than Age of Darkness, and knowing it's joining the 3 year threadmill makes my perception of the value of the rulebook drop quite a lot (whereas before I saw Heresy as a "stable" game, albeit using an edition of 40K I had negative memories of).

So it's not unbelievable to me that people are just cool on this box because it doesn't represent good value to them.

Hey, you stole my back story!

I really like almost everything in the HH 2.0 box. Goes back to my RTB-01 beakies I've still got stashed away.
If it had been a LR Proteus instead of the Spartan I probably would have bought it already. The FLGS has a couple in stock, maybe they'll mark it down now.

The new box though, hard pass. I'm not thrilled by what I've heard about the new rules, really not thrilled about the 3 year treadmill. Don't like the Saturnine anything, and neutral on the Mk II armour. Also not happy that they seem to have stopped selling the rules in ebooks, and removed the Horus Heresy section entirely from Warhammer Digital.

I bought one of each of the HH boardgames, which means I already have a fair number of guys, but I bought two of the HH 2.0 starters too, and I printed a bunch of Mk IIs already, so I guess I was pretty insulated, and then the 3.0 news started to drip...

Did you get any of these

Nah, I already had enough