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ShumaGorath wrote:

androcles138 wrote:If we see them at 50, and squads of 3, that means that for 450 points we could have a total 9 pieces of (albeit low) armor for saturation, that though slow wouldn't be half bad in combat.

I think that a case could be made for a list of 3 'cists, 3 3-man penitent engine squads, and the rest as sisters and dominions.

At 50 they're significantly better then killa kans while being all of 5 points more. Having that many attacks at that strength with that level of surviveability for only 50 points would be good. Really really good. At 450 you're getting 9 Penitent engines or a terminator squad. Nine penitents is not equivalent to 10 terminators.

Going to agree with you here, penitent engines should be staying around the same point cost probably around 70-80 pts per, they're slightly nerfed for movement (no longer getting d6 inches and not getting fleet.) But instead are now great for taking out squads, 2x heavy flamer per and d6 attacks that cause further attacks make them awesome for both vehicle and squad hunting, which makes rage not that big of a deal. All and all I see them going down, but not very much.

Kreedos wrote: All and all I see them going down, but not very much.

With AV11, Open-topped and Squadron? A PE is 33% more likely than a Terminator to be taken out by an Autocannon hit. Sadly, I doubt they'd be worth the points (or financial) investment if they come in at 80 per model - but such is life

Mythal wrote:

Kreedos wrote: All and all I see them going down, but not very much.

With AV11, Open-topped and Squadron? A PE is 33% more likely than a Terminator to be taken out by an Autocannon hit. Sadly, I doubt they'd be worth the points (or financial) investment if they come in at 80 per model - but such is life

And a penitent engine has a 9.14% chance of being killed by a plasma gun shot as opposed to a 27.72% chance on a storm shield terminator or 56%. Three fold to six fold difference. The penitent has a 33% chance of dying to a meltagun vs 55% on a standard terminator. The comparisons get a lot worse when considering items like starcanons, bolters, flamers, demolisher canons, heavy bolters, power weapons etc. They're actually pretty comprable from a survivability standpoint given that they are vulnerable to different things with comparable wound statistics to many which is where the penitent engines double heavy flamers and massive close combat punch come in to make them significantly better.

ShumaGorath wrote:And a penitent engine has a 9.14% chance of being killed by a plasma gun shot as opposed to a 27.72% chance on a storm shield terminator or 56%. Three fold to six fold difference. The penitent has a 33% chance of dying to a meltagun vs 55% on a standard terminator. The comparisons get a lot worse when considering items like starcanons, bolters, flamers, demolisher canons, heavy bolters, power weapons etc. They're actually pretty comprable from a survivability standpoint given that they are vulnerable to different things with comparable wound statistics to many which is where the penitent engines double heavy flamers and massive close combat punch come in to make them significantly better.

Agreed - the comparison should be made instead between two Furioso Dreadnoughts and three Penitent Engines, but I really am too tired to do the math-hammer on their vulnerabilities, ranged strength, likely outcome of assault and the disadvantages of Rage Either way, at 240 points per squadron, there are probably better unit options coming in next month's army list, and I happily concede the debate and wish you luck fielding your Penitent Engines, ShumaGorath.

Mythal wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:And a penitent engine has a 9.14% chance of being killed by a plasma gun shot as opposed to a 27.72% chance on a storm shield terminator or 56%. Three fold to six fold difference. The penitent has a 33% chance of dying to a meltagun vs 55% on a standard terminator. The comparisons get a lot worse when considering items like starcanons, bolters, flamers, demolisher canons, heavy bolters, power weapons etc. They're actually pretty comprable from a survivability standpoint given that they are vulnerable to different things with comparable wound statistics to many which is where the penitent engines double heavy flamers and massive close combat punch come in to make them significantly better.

Agreed - the comparison should be made instead between two Furioso Dreadnoughts and three Penitent Engines, but I really am too tired to do the math-hammer on their vulnerabilities, ranged strength, likely outcome of assault and the disadvantages of Rage Either way, at 240 points per squadron, there are probably better unit options coming in next month's army list, and I happily concede the debate and wish you luck fielding your Penitent Engines, ShumaGorath.

I play vanilla space marines until Tybaros comes in the mail. I pay 120 base for dreadnoughts that average less then half the wounds penitent engines do and which can't be taken in squads.

240 points is still very nice for a cheap suicide squad that can deal a large amount of damage, cause panic on the enemy side, and even in a squdron, 3 Penitent Engines if played behind cover/rhino wall and jumped into CC quickly should survive most of the game, and if they don't they'll deal at least 240 points worth of damage most of the time. Even if you run the squad straight at a LR, hell, they'll at least make up their points.

Couple small nitpicks:

1. Remember that in a squadron, an immobilized is as good as a destroyed.
2. Alone, an immobilized PE is basically done, unless your opponent is silly enough to wander into HF range (and then he deserves the roasting he'll get )

3. The EZBake still isn't going to make it worth not taking an Exorcist. EZBake is good for taking out (hard) infantry, which is not something that Sisters usually struggle with between all the melta, and the saturation of fire that Bolters and Flamers provide. Anti-Armor on the other hand, especially long range anti-armor has always been a major weakness of the Sisters. Under the (imo, somewhat large) assumption that the Exorcist stays the same, you'll still want to field as many as possible both for reliability (nothing like rolling that 1 for number of shots :-\ ) and for punch. I used to take allied IG for Sentinel Squadrons for this purpose, but with allies no longer an option...

4. Scouting Dominions. One of the (imo few) positive changes. The loss of DG hurts the EZ-Bake Lite, but the Twin Linked AoF for Melta makes up for it. That said, don't expect this to surprise most players. Lots of armies have scouts / out flankers. Still, 4 meltas (assuming they don't nerf it) in a scouting transport is pretty dangerous.

5. I'm in the "PEs probably won't go down to 50 points, considering Killa Kans" camp. Also consider Deff Dreads. They have (on average) fewer attacks, lower Init, and have to sacrifice their "Heavy Flamers" if they want more CC punch. Granted, they have better armor and aren't open topped, and don't have Rage (which I will never consider a positive trait in any case). They start off at 85 points minimum after buying the mandatory weapons (which aren't HFs, but A3 weapons used as BS2...). I would probably expect PEs at 65ish points or so. Still a points drop, but meh. I bought the models, might as well try em.

6. I can not begin to understand the "I'm glad Faith is taking a back seat". It's our one special set of rules. That'd be like losing Synapse, ATSKNF, WBB or Mob Rule. Yes, you can still use the army without it, but not only does it lose some of its power, it loses a lot of its character and feel. I know that those are a bit more intangible (and possibly completely irrelevant to some players), but I still feel like overall it's a loss to the army.

7. um... other stuff. going to sleep now.

240 points is cheap? Really?! They are as fragile as hell. IMO they should cost as much as Killa Kanz.

SabrX wrote:240 points is cheap? Really?! They are as fragile as hell. IMO they should cost as much as Killa Kanz.

Why should something so significantly better then killa kanz cost as much as killa kanz? No, you know what, you're right. Lets go with this theory. Why should dark eldar tanks cost so much more then ork trukks when they have the same armor! From now on Dark Eldar Ravagers will be 30 points! Sternguard are now 16 points, they're no more tough then a regular marine! I guess it never did make any sense that a manticore would cost more then a chimera, they have the same armor after all!

ShumaGorath wrote:

SabrX wrote:240 points is cheap? Really?! They are as fragile as hell. IMO they should cost as much as Killa Kanz.

Why should something so significantly better then killa kanz cost as much as killa kanz? No, you know what, you're right. Lets go with this theory. Why should dark eldar tanks cost so much more then ork trukks when they have the same armor! From now on Dark Eldar Ravagers will be 30 points! Sternguard are now 16 points, they're no more tough then a regular marine! I guess it never did make any sense that a manticore would cost more then a chimera, they have the same armor after all!

Well, Shuma, that was uncalled for - I agree with your initial point (and would suspect 65-70 points myself), but the hyperbolic examples weren't required.

Dysartes wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

SabrX wrote:240 points is cheap? Really?! They are as fragile as hell. IMO they should cost as much as Killa Kanz.

Why should something so significantly better then killa kanz cost as much as killa kanz? No, you know what, you're right. Lets go with this theory. Why should dark eldar tanks cost so much more then ork trukks when they have the same armor! From now on Dark Eldar Ravagers will be 30 points! Sternguard are now 16 points, they're no more tough then a regular marine! I guess it never did make any sense that a manticore would cost more then a chimera, they have the same armor after all!

Well, Shuma, that was uncalled for - I agree with your initial point (and would suspect 65-70 points myself), but the hyperbolic examples weren't required.

They were however funny.

ShumaGorath wrote:I play vanilla space marines until Tybaros comes in the mail. I pay 120 base for dreadnoughts that average less then half the wounds penitent engines do and which can't be taken in squads.

But if you don't play Sisters of Battle, why do you even care?

And the entire point of 'conceding' is to avoid further conflict and argument. Magnanimity, while less 'fun' than trolling, is sorely underrated.

So, has anyone done the maths comparing DCA squads and Repentia against MEQs?

Hmmm just got an update on my army builder warhammer 40k 5th edition. Reading trough some of the bug fixes etc I came across section saying *Sisters of battle will not be added before 2 months after the second Release of WD*

Dont know if this is new or old news for you guys or even news.

SabrX wrote:240 points is cheap? Really?! They are as fragile as hell. IMO they should cost as much as Killa Kanz.

I'm thinking something like 195 for a squad of 3, not 245, it's still a bit expensive to field 9 at 600 points, but not too expensive to field a squad of three.

Also, on paper they are fragile, but as far as my experiences, they live quite awhile.

Kreedos wrote:I'm thinking something like 195 for a squad of 3, not 245, it's still a bit expensive to field 9 at 600 points, but not too expensive to field a squad of three.

If they came in at that price point, I'd probably field them as Elites instead of Repentia. Of course, we don't know for certain that they'll be Elites yet - if they're still Heavy Support, then the discussion is academic.

On the subject of Repentia, the numbers against MEQs seem to lean in favour of DCAs, mainly due to the whole I1 thing, and the 50/50 chance of getting Spirit of the Martyr to fire.

Mythal wrote:

Kreedos wrote:I'm thinking something like 195 for a squad of 3, not 245, it's still a bit expensive to field 9 at 600 points, but not too expensive to field a squad of three.

If they came in at that price point, I'd probably field them as Elites instead of Repentia. Of course, we don't know for certain that they'll be Elites yet - if they're still Heavy Support, then the discussion is academic.

On the subject of Repentia, the numbers against MEQs seem to lean in favour of DCAs, mainly due to the whole I1 thing, and the 50/50 chance of getting Spirit of the Martyr to fire.

I'm almost positive they're Elites, they're listed right under repentia in the section that elites would be in, in all the new codexes.

Repentia are most likely going to be much cheaper, probably around the same price as DCA's (150) and if they take a wound it's something like a 60-65% chance to fire Spirit.

So if one wanted they could take like 2x DCA squads and 3x Repentia.

Kreedos wrote:I'm almost positive they're Elites, they're listed right under repentia in the section that elites would be in, in all the new codexes.

Oh, agreed - just including the caveat so as not to be jumping the gun

Kreedos wrote:Repentia are most likely going to be much cheaper, probably around the same price as DCA's (150) and if they take a wound it's something like a 60-65% chance to fire Spirit.

So if one wanted they could take like 2x DCA squads and 3x Repentia.

It's situational, but the DCA normally come out better even if the Repentia AoF goes off (and on their first charge, it's likely the Repentia will have a 50/50 chance to trigger their act - hopefully they're in a Transport now, so they're no longer taking casualties as they footslog). Running through a hypothetical melee against 10 Lightning Claw Termies, 9 DCAs + Crusader annihilate the Terminators by their second phase, while the results are reversed for Repentia. Against TH/SS, the Repentia compare slightly better, but still not as favourably as a Conclave.

Repentia are more about their vehicle killing power, and secondary squad killing power. I'd play them to jump from vehicle to vehicle for as long as they could survive, and assault a squad if they can. They're not the unit you're going to want to slam up against Elites, Death cult fit this roll much better, and that's what I think this codex is all about, defining the roles of the army, instead of having squads that can fit all roles. People aren't going to expect the Repentia to barrel out of a parked Rhino and move 6+D6+charge range to their vehicle, either that or they won't really have much to stop it do to the increased mobility of the squad.

I think its ok for Penitent Engines to be priced close to Killa Kans because Sisters don't have KFF. Yeah at 50pts, Kans are 5 pts cheaper but don't forget the 85pt Big Mek hanging out nearby. Ignoring 50% of incoming shots is huge.

Kreedos wrote:Repentia are more about their vehicle killing power, and secondary squad killing power. I'd play them to jump from vehicle to vehicle for as long as they could survive, and assault a squad if they can.

I can see the wisdom in that - but given they're subject to Rage, you'd have to be very lucky, or your opponent would have to be very dense, to actually have your enemy's vehicles set up so that your Repentia can pinball between them turn by turn when you eventually unleash them from their (currently hypothetical) transport. I confess, Rage on any unit tends to make me treat it as a F&F weapon.

Personally I think that what's going to make Repentia worth taking is if they can take a transport. Otherwise they will be a big pain in the ass to get where you want them to due to rage and frankly with twin linked dominions, Seraphim with two shots a piece, exorcists, rending heavy bolters and potentially relentless multimeltas I don't think army really needs much more help busting tanks. It needs at least one unit that can stick in combat for a turn after it blows its wad in close range shooting or to hold objectives.

Also there is no way a Penitent Engine is worth more that 50 points. Its stats are better than a Kan but you can choose where a Kan goes which is incredibly important. You have no control over a Penitent Engine after you put it on the table which is a huge liability. In addition a Kan can have ranged threat which an Engine does not (until it gets one shot with its heavy flamer). Add in that after penetrating its armor 11 front you need to roll a 1 or 2 NOT to kill it and they don't get where you want most of the time. It's not like there's a lot of armor in the army that the high strength stuff your opponent has will be shooting at instead. I'm hoping for no more than 55 since I think GW over estimates how awesome they are but being in the heavy slot isn't the only reason you never saw those in a Witch Hunter army.

I just have to say, I don't understand all the complaining, this army update looks amazing, and the real actual SOB players know we're in for a points dip. So instead of faith being the backbone of the army, it's more as a helpful tool, but not to be relied on. Biggest example of this is when you look at the fact you get 1d6 faith in a 400 point or a 3000 point game. Instead the army is going to be more focused on the saturation of cheap but still elite troops that can carry flamer and melta, also cheaper Rhinos.

As it stands, there is no scalability on the number of faith acts. The WH player may hope for some artefacts boosting this number.

I think the penitents shouldnt get a points reduction but a stat buff to balance them at their current point cost.

I cannot see a penitent engine being of the same poor quality or the same poor impact on the battlefield as a grot kan is. They are advanced engines of destruction and should reflect that rather by quality then quantity.

Pyriel- wrote:I think the penitents shouldnt get a points reduction but a stat buff to balance them at their current point cost.

I cannot see a penitent engine being of the same poor quality or the same poor impact on the battlefield as a grot kan is. They are advanced engines of destruction and should reflect that rather by quality then quantity.

I would agree with you in an ideal world - but we know the stats of the PE now, and I don't think anyone's expecting wargear to fix its "Open-Topped" quality, or buff its AV, so I'd hope we're looking at a points drop. If we get neither, then I can't see them being an optimal choice for the points.

Pyriel- wrote:I think the penitents shouldnt get a points reduction but a stat buff to balance them at their current point cost.

I cannot see a penitent engine being of the same poor quality or the same poor impact on the battlefield as a grot kan is. They are advanced engines of destruction and should reflect that rather by quality then quantity.

Since the basic stats have remained the same that ship has sailed at least until the next codex. PE's have received a slight nerf (depending on your point of view) to speed and a slight buff to weapons with 2 heavy flamers instead of 1 and +1 attack. The got the Rage USR and lost their way to dictate weapon destroyed results. Everything else is the same as it was before meaning its difficult to survive to get to CC range as even a glancing hit has a 33% chance of destroying one in a sqaudron.

There are three very solid reasons Penitent engines will not be a staple in new Sisters lists:

1) Co$t: The vast majority of Sisters vets don't own any (or more than a couple) because they have never been a good choice. Myself and every other current Sisters player I've talked to has no plans on dishing out hundreds of dollars on a handful of them. Same thing really can be said of Repentia.

2) Role: Penitent Engines have the stats and weapons to do a job in the Sisters army that doesn't need to be done. Heavy flamers... when was the last time a Sisters player said 'now if only I had more Heavy flamers to deal with infantry...'. We don't have trouble with infantry, nor do we have trouble with mobile short-ranged units that can take out tanks. Taking Penitents is like hiring extra painters when building a house but forgetting to hire a guy to put up drywall. Its more of what we already don't need.

3) Unreliability: Basically, they're too slow, and too fragile, so can't be relied on to do their job. Then there is the whole 'not being able to control them' thing...


Maybe their point costs will be cut nearly in half, but theres still #1. Maybe they'll get made into resin and cost a lot less ( haha, just kidding), but then there is still #2 and 3.

Kreedos wrote:I just have to say, I don't understand all the complaining, this army update looks amazing, and the real actual SOB players know we're in for a points dip. So instead of faith being the backbone of the army, it's more as a helpful tool, but not to be relied on. Biggest example of this is when you look at the fact you get 1d6 faith in a 400 point or a 3000 point game. Instead the army is going to be more focused on the saturation of cheap but still elite troops that can carry flamer and melta, also cheaper Rhinos.

Much of the complaining, at least from me, isn't really based in specific units and equipment. Its more about the army losing its soul. Meltas, flamers, ya that'll still be there, but the principle that a weak-ish troop unit could at some point burn some faith to take down a statistically stronger unit was one of the great joys of playing Sisters, and appears to be gone.

The feel/soul of the army has gone from a bunch of troops that can pull off miracles, to a watered down version of Blood Angels without Fast vehicles, or Guard vets in Power armor with marine equipment, minus the tanks. The flexability is gone, and we get rank and file instead.

You know, I just realized, Celestians have basically turned into a much crappier version of khornate berserkers. The current version of Hand of the Emperor is essentially a crappy version of Furious Charge, and it grants fearless as well. This combined with Celestians gaining +1 WS and +1 attack... the comparison is uncanny now.

andrewm9 wrote:PE's have received a slight nerf (depending on your point of view) to speed

No point of view here. It's simply truth.

I would agree with you in an ideal world - but we know the stats of the PE now, and I don't think anyone's expecting wargear to fix its "Open-Topped" quality, or buff its AV, so I'd hope we're looking at a points drop. If we get neither, then I can't see them being an optimal choice for the points.

You are right.

Melissia wrote:You know, I just realized, Celestians have basically turned into a much crappier version of khornate berserkers. The current version of Hand of the Emperor is essentially a crappy version of Furious Charge, and it grants fearless as well. This combined with Celestians gaining +1 WS and +1 attack... the comparison is uncanny now.

andrewm9 wrote:PE's have received a slight nerf (depending on your point of view) to speed

No point of view here. It's simply truth.

Sorry perhaps I shoudl have been clearer. Its clearly a nerf no matter who's looking at it I think but whether its a big or a small one is dependent on how imporatnt you think that is. Personally I think its more than slight since its hasn't changed much.

Mythal wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I play vanilla space marines until Tybaros comes in the mail. I pay 120 base for dreadnoughts that average less then half the wounds penitent engines do and which can't be taken in squads.

But if you don't play Sisters of Battle, why do you even care?

I don't like the prospect of facing a 400 point squad of 9 walkers with the ability to roll over my entire army. As much as I don't play them I'm still playing a game that they're in.

Much of the complaining, at least from me, isn't really based in specific units and equipment. Its more about the army losing its soul. Meltas, flamers, ya that'll still be there, but the principle that a weak-ish troop unit could at some point burn some faith to take down a statistically stronger unit was one of the great joys of playing Sisters, and appears to be gone.

The feel/soul of the army has gone from a bunch of troops that can pull off miracles, to a watered down version of Blood Angels without Fast vehicles, or Guard vets in Power armor with marine equipment, minus the tanks. The flexability is gone, and we get rank and file instead.

But the system is still there and that army existed before faith points.