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ShumaGorath wrote:

SabrX wrote:240 points is cheap? Really?! They are as fragile as hell. IMO they should cost as much as Killa Kanz.

Why should something so significantly better then killa kanz cost as much as killa kanz?

Because Killa Kans have access to the Kustom Force Field. They're also not closed-top. The combination makes them about 4x as resilient to glancing hits, and still more than twice as resilient to penetrating hits.

Also, calm down; rational debate, not hyperbole, please.

Don't forget access to things like BS3 Rokkits and Grotzookas in an army book that is boosted greatly by adding them. PE's should be in the 45pt range, the same cost as a Grotzooka armed Kan. Though if they are still heavy support then it won't matter how cheap they are since they still won't be taken.

Hulksmash wrote:Don't forget access to things like BS3 Rokkits and Grotzookas in an army book that is boosted greatly by adding them. PE's should be in the 45pt range, the same cost as a Grotzooka armed Kan. Though if they are still heavy support then it won't matter how cheap they are since they still won't be taken.

Yeah this is exactly right although from the layout of the White Dwarf I would assume they have been moved to elites. There they are competing with Repentia (which will again be ignored if they can't take a transport) and Priest squads which could be decent so they won't have to worry about Exorcists stealing their thunder.

I haven't read much of the 6th ed rules but Rage really needs to be removed. It's just horrible and totally takes the control out of a player's hands which is idiotic for a strategy game.

Ixquic wrote:from the layout of the White Dwarf I would assume they have been moved to elites. There they are competing with Repentia (which will again be ignored if they can't take a transport) and Priest squads which could be decent so they won't have to worry about Exorcists stealing their thunder.

I haven't read much of the 6th ed rules but Rage really needs to be removed. It's just horrible and totally takes the control out of a player's hands which is idiotic for a strategy game.

I'd wager they've been moved to Elites based on the list format - even if only from a business perspective, having your second most expensive model competing with your (infinitely more useful) most expensive model for a Force Organisation Slot is a bad idea. Regarding Rage? I actually like it on the Penitent Engines - it's nice and fluffy, even if it impacts their usefulness. We're playing an army of zealots driven by their all-consuming devotion to Him on Earth, and it's nice to see it occasionally reflected in the mechanics.

Hulksmash wrote:Don't forget access to things like BS3 Rokkits and Grotzookas in an army book that is boosted greatly by adding them. PE's should be in the 45pt range, the same cost as a Grotzooka armed Kan. Though if they are still heavy support then it won't matter how cheap they are since they still won't be taken.

So for 130 points you want to have a unit that with average rolls will wipe out a 10 marine squad a turn every turn from the moment it makes contact without having to shoot (if they shoot you only need two!)? Can you name something else in the game capable of that at 45 points per model? At 405 points 9 of them would wipe out an entire terminator assault squad, storm shields and all, in a single charge with average rolls and without firing the 18 heavy flamers. Thats one of the most resilient units in the game and it costs the same while having a third the damage output and no ranged weaponry. I know you guys feel like you're getting pretty burned on this codex, but this is just plain wishlisting and brutally bad game design.

This walker has the most damage output in close combat of any walker in the game, it doubles most. You want it to cost a third the rest of the field because of a loss of one point of armor and open topped. No.

ShumaGorath wrote:So for 130 points you want to have a unit that with average rolls will wipe out a 10 marine squad a turn every turn from the moment it makes contact without having to shoot? Can you name something else in the game capable of that at 45 points per model?

How about at 15 pts/model? Death cult assassins.

At 405 points 10 of them would wipe out an entire terminator assault squad, storm shields and all, in a single charge with average rolls and without firing the 18 heavy flamers. I know you guys feel like you're getting pretty burned on this codex, but this is just plain wishlisting and brutally bad game design.

First, good luck getting 9 of them into contact with a single terminator squad. Second, as they aren't fleet, good luck getting to the Terminator squad any time soon. Third, what are your guns doing, while this indescribably-horrible assault unit is sauntering in your direction?

Fourth, remember what I said about hyperbole, please.

ShumaGorath wrote:So for 130 points you want to have a unit that with average rolls will wipe out a 10 marine squad a turn every turn from the moment it makes contact without having to shoot (if they shoot you only need two!)? Can you name something else in the game capable of that at 45 points per model?

No, but for 15 points per model, 8 Grey Knights Death Cult Assassins (120 point squad) will cause an average of 10.67 force weapon wounds on a 10-marine squad per turn. They lack the Heavy Flamers, but aren't subject to Rage and can potentially hide in transports or terrain, and for the 10 point difference you can add a Multi-Melta or Heavy Bolter Servitor.

Edit:

Janthkin was quicker off the mark than I was.

In any case, let's try to avoid circular arguments about the Penitent Engine - it suffices to say that folks who've played Sisters armies since the late 90s don't feel they'd be worth taking if they went above 60ppm, and since they're the ones who'd have to buy them (because none of us really own more than three - I have two painted and assembled, and one that's pinned, incomplete, and been that way since before Mandelson's second resignation from Blair's Cabinet), they're the ones most likely to care.

ShumaGorath wrote:
So for 130 points you want to have a unit that with average rolls will wipe out a 10 marine squad a turn every turn from the moment it makes contact without having to shoot (if they shoot you only need two!)? Can you name something else in the game capable of that at 45 points per model?

Janthkin beat me to it. Deathcult assassins. For the record 9 for 135. 36*2/3*1/2 = 12 MEq kills on the charge (9 if flat footed). Thatis at I6 btw.

And they get even more sick with all the GK perks and access to a transport (including storm raven and land raider).

ShumaGorath wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Don't forget access to things like BS3 Rokkits and Grotzookas in an army book that is boosted greatly by adding them. PE's should be in the 45pt range, the same cost as a Grotzooka armed Kan. Though if they are still heavy support then it won't matter how cheap they are since they still won't be taken.

So for 130 points you want to have a unit that with average rolls will wipe out a 10 marine squad a turn every turn from the moment it makes contact without having to shoot (if they shoot you only need two!)? Can you name something else in the game capable of that at 45 points per model? At 405 points 9 of them would wipe out an entire terminator assault squad, storm shields and all, in a single charge with average rolls and without firing the 18 heavy flamers. Thats one of the most resilient units in the game and it costs the same while having a third the damage output and no ranged weaponry. I know you guys feel like you're getting pretty burned on this codex, but this is just plain wishlisting and brutally bad game design.

This walker has the most damage output in close combat of any walker in the game, it doubles most. You want it to cost a third the rest of the field because of a loss of one point of armor and open topped. No.

Do those other walkers get to choose where they go?

Who cares how much damage it can do in combat when you can't dictate where it goes (meaning it's possible you are being led around by some worthless scout squad) and a Penitent Engine is less survivable than the Assault Terminator so chances are it won't even get there? Do you set your army literally in front of your opponent's and just push your stuff forward?

Janthkin wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

SabrX wrote:240 points is cheap? Really?! They are as fragile as hell. IMO they should cost as much as Killa Kanz.

Why should something so significantly better then killa kanz cost as much as killa kanz?

Because Killa Kans have access to the Kustom Force Field. They're also not closed-top. The combination makes them about 4x as resilient to glancing hits, and still more than twice as resilient to penetrating hits.

Also, calm down; rational debate, not hyperbole, please.

As Janthkin pointed out, Penitent Engines don't enjoy the same protection as Killa Kanz. Sure they have slightly better stats, but they are purely foot-sloggging assault, without any range shooting. This is sluggish for mechanized warfare. It's not like Dreadnoughts, Sentinels, Eldar Walkers, or Killa Kanz, who at least have some fire power. On top of all that, Penitent Engines are uncontrollable (have to move and run towards the closes unit). Your opponent can manipulate them into a large tarpit or against a unit they have no chance of defeating in assault. Open topped is another factor. Even a glancing blow can prove fatal. They are sacrificial ponds. As such, 80 points is way too steep. They are less durable than a Rhino, with even less mobility, so perhaps 50 points is just about right. Think of it as a Rhino with Extra Armour.

In regards to Death Cults and Assassins, they are better off in a Grey Knight list. Hammerhand greatly boosts their effectiveness, a long with Acolyte with Meltaguns and assault transports. IMO, the lack of Hammerhand in codex Sisters of Battle should make their Crusaders and Death Cults slightly cheaper in points cost. In any case, it won't mean anything if they don't have stubborn at a squad level rather than IC. A tar-pit must endure, not break and get slaughtered in sweeping advance.

Pyriel wrote:
I'd wager they've been moved to Elites based on the list format...

I'm inclined to believe GW's going to do two things... make Penitent Engines weaker and more in line with what you'd expect of something clearly derived from a sentinel, make it squadroned to compensate, moving it out of the Heavy Support FOC and into elite or fast attack depending on the angle they decide to go with it... then introduce a beefier version that actually lives up to the what the P.E. should be.

I think the biggest issue the SoB have is that they have become so greatly defined by meltas and flamers... almost more than Salamanders. At the same time GW hasn't done enough to either distinguish those weapon preferences or introduce other appropriately diverse weapons. Both the IG and Space Marines have more varied flame tanks than the SoB, seems a bit wrong. It seems GW has really pushed SoB as SM light and that is acting as barrier to giving them anything worthwhile. GW doesn't seem to go out of its way to short change IG vehicles, but SoB seem to just end up with tweaked down versions of Marine gear. Vehicle wise SoB should just be different, without being any better or worse than other Imperial factions. Giving SoB better vehicles and units is just a matter of giving a justifiable fluffy reason why marines would choose not to use something. The PE for example, should be generally as good as a Dreadnought... with the system making the pilot prone to rage explanation why the marines wouldn't want to use it. I'm holding out hope that GW will do something like the Crassus on a more landraider scale giving the SoB a mobile shrine/tank. Something seemingly impractical to the more pragmatic marines but appropriate for the religious zealots to use.

aka_mythos wrote:I think the biggest issue the SoB have is that they have become so greatly defined by meltas and flamers... almost more than Salamanders. At the same time GW hasn't done enough to either distinguish those weapon preferences or introduce other appropriately diverse weapons. Both the IG and Space Marines have more varied flame tanks than the SoB, seems a bit wrong.

This is something that rankles, admittedly. Perhaps this will be fixed in the new Immolator upgrades, but the fact that no Sisters of Battle vehicles get access to a Flamestorm Cannon, while the Blood Angels stick one on top of a Rhino chassis, give it sponsons, give it fast, give it AV13 and give it Scouts, always seems a touch unfair given how exclusively the Sisters are forced to use the Flamer-Melta motif. But, as I say, perhaps their Flamer-based weapons will get the Ward treatment in next month's White Dwarf.

The Penitant Engines do present quite a problem. On the one hand, I agree that 50 points is too cheap. At that cost wind them up and send them after whatever, why not? Our troops should be cheap enough to allow a bunch. On the other hand, I wouldn't touch them at 80 pts no matter what chart slot they are in. I cannot think of a magic number where they are cheap enough to take, but expensive enough not to run over everything.

Then again, even at 45 points I can't see taking them over an excorcist. Like Creeping Dimentia said, who needs more heavy flamers on a light fragile vehicle when you can have armor and range? two things the sisters aint got much of.

Mythal wrote:while the Blood Angels stick one on top of a Rhino chassis, give it sponsons, give it fast, give it AV13 and give it Scouts

From a sarcastic point of view, this is only fitting, considering the Blood Angels also stole the Inferno Pistol and made it better. I sense a pattern.

The problem with PEs is that several current strong builds will look at them, laugh, and wipe them off the table in the first turn. Long Fang spam, razorspam, most GK armies, Hive Guard 'nids, almost any IG army I can think of. Probably dark eldar too.

But 9 PEs look like an awful threat for anybody else. They are damn dangerous on the charge. Orks may well have serious problems if the PEs can get favorable charges, and 6 or 9 might just overrun a middling SM army.

But remember, they have rage and no fleet. Getting two units of them to charge *anything* is going to be difficult unless your opponent just doesn't care to interfere with them.

The Grog wrote:The problem with PEs is that several current strong builds will look at them, laugh, and wipe them off the table in the first turn. Long Fang spam, razorspam, most GK armies, Hive Guard 'nids, almost any IG army I can think of. Probably dark eldar too.

Then all the Rhinos, Immolators, and Exorcists will be untouched; awesome.

AllistorPreist wrote:I cannot think of a magic number where they are cheap enough to take, but expensive enough not to run over everything.

I would say 60 would be the uppermost cut-off. That means when fielding a squadron, you're paying what you'd pay for a Furioso Librarian, but without the hardiness, mobility, initiative, force weapon, additional psyker powers, Psychic Hood, or ability to board Skimmer Transports, and still having Rage, and thus no control over the Squadron after initial placement.

Lynata wrote:

Mythal wrote:while the Blood Angels stick one on top of a Rhino chassis, give it sponsons, give it fast, give it AV13 and give it Scouts

From a sarcastic point of view, this is only fitting, considering the Blood Angels also stole the Inferno Pistol and made it better. I sense a pattern.

I'm trying to keep a positive outlook - after all, the fellow who wrote Codex: Blood Angels co-wrote the new Sisters Codex. That gives some real scope for a Wargear section that may well make our eyes pop out. "Holy Promethium, +35 points, gives T-L Heavy Flamers the profile Template, S6, AP3"? Yes, please, I'll take six.

A Nob with a Power Klaw on the charge (no way the Orks shouldn't get the charge) has 4 attacks. At WS 4 that is...

2 Hits, 1/3 Pen Glance, 4/3 Pen
Glance - Kills on 5+ so 1/9 from Glances
Pen - Kills on 3+ so 8/9 from Pens

The Nob will on average take out 1 Penitent Engine per combat. In return they average
4.5 attacks
2.25 hits
1.875 Dead

Additional swings kill another 0.78 for 2.8 or 3 dead orks. This is at the cost of one of the Penitent Engines. With no damage results Fearless might kill another 3 in the worst case for 6 dead Orks. That is at the cost of a PE which still leaves the PE behind in points if they come to 50 points. This also assumes no Big Shootas or Rokkits fire at all during the approach to take out any of the PE either.

Seems to me the Orks will be fine against them.

calypso2ts wrote:A Nob with a Power Klaw on the charge (no way the Orks shouldn't get the charge) has 4 attacks. At WS 4 that is...

2 Hits, 1/3 Pen Glance, 4/3 Pen
Glance - Kills on 5+ so 1/9 from Glances
Pen - Kills on 3+ so 8/9 from Pens

The Nob will on average take out 1 Penitent Engine per combat. In return they average
4.5 attacks
2.25 hits
1.875 Dead

Additional swings kill another 0.78 for 2.8 or 3 dead orks. This is at the cost of one of the Penitent Engines. With no damage results Fearless might kill another 3 in the worst case for 6 dead Orks. That is at the cost of a PE which still leaves the PE behind in points if they come to 50 points. This also assumes no Big Shootas or Rokkits fire at all during the approach to take out any of the PE either.

Seems to me the Orks will be fine against them.

Penitent Engines are INT 3, your power claw would most likely be dead before it got it's attacks, and it's more likely you'll go up against 3 penitent engines in a combat, than just one. I cant see anyone taking just one. So it'd be 6x3 = 18 dead orcs. I'd say 150 points for 3 isn't leaving anything behind.

Kreedos wrote:Penitent Engines are INT 3, your power claw would most likely be dead before it got it's attacks, and it's more likely you'll go up against 3 penitent engines in a combat, than just one. I cant see anyone taking just one. So it'd be 6x3 = 18 dead orcs. I'd say 150 points for 3 isn't leaving anything behind.

Remember that a PE averages 4.5 attacks when charged (1d6+1), and against Orks only half of those attacks will hit (WS4 vs WS4), and of those 5/6ths will wound. Also, Ork Boyz have Furious Charge (for a strength buff to the Nob, in this scenario), and a Nob blobbed in amongst a mob of Boyz can't be individually targetted. All in all, allowing for the vaguaries of probability, all three PEs should be dead before they can break our hypothetical 30-boy mob (idealised, 17.7 Ork casualties, 106.2 points, for 3 Penitent Engines). But let's not get bogged down in this circular argument

Edits: Refining the maths, allowing for Fearless and factoring in reduced strength on the Nob in subsequent turns to the first.

How about at 15 pts/model? Death cult assassins.

...that basically require a fragile 220p flying chicken plus luck to do their thing.

Janthkin wrote:As Janthkin pointed out, Penitent Engines don't enjoy the same protection as Killa Kanz. Sure they have slightly better stats, but they are purely foot-sloggging assault, without any range shooting. This is sluggish for mechanized warfare. It's not like Dreadnoughts, Sentinels, Eldar Walkers, or Killa Kanz, who at least have some fire power.

Penitent engines have more firepower then killa kanz. Two heavy flamers is significantly more damaging then a single skorcha and will average much higher results then a grotzooka. They don't have the ranged tankbusting a rokkit gives, but then that's an afterthough on kans as well given how poor they are with the weapons. You also just compared them to units that are averagely 140-100-and 35 points. All three of which would die to a PE in combat.

On top of all that, Penitent Engines are uncontrollable (have to move and run towards the closes unit). Your opponent can manipulate them into a large tarpit or against a unit they have no chance of defeating in assault.

It's difficult to tarpit a unit with that many heavy flamers. Mass squads like orks will have issues when half or more of their number are killed. They can't be tarpitted in a cost effective manor in combat by anything else given their strength and number of attacks. Even then, at 45 points you've succedded in tarpitted all of 135 points of models. They are very bad tarpit targets. The uncontrollability is their primary problem, but given the sisters likely use as a short range fire base army I find it hard to believe that they could be kited with much success. Running a unit beside them or intervening with a transport is all it takes to change what counts as the shortest distance of travel. In all likelihood the kiting unit would be killed by shooting before it could lead them to do much other then an unwanted assault. Even then, given the sheer power the PE has in assault it's unlikely something could survive the assault and with a reasonable consolidation you're not losing much for a turn.

Open topped is another factor. Even a glancing blow can prove fatal. They are sacrificial ponds. As such, 80 points is way too steep. They are less durable than a Rhino, with even less mobility, so perhaps 50 points is just about right. Think of it as a Rhino with Extra Armour.

Firstly they do come with extra armor and have a 6+ invlun which offsets the 16% death chance with a 16% chane to ignore damage. If you want to compare them to a rhino sure, but that rhino averages roughly 7 str 10 attacks per assault and carries two weapons that are typically tank mounted. I don't believe 80 points is the right price. They werent used before primarily becuase they didn't fit the metagame and because they were pricey. 45 is inane. Thats an utterly unrealistic number for something that will kill every other unit in the game in combat in an equivalently pointed fight and which also carries enough squad busting ranged weaponry to anihalate most high number squads before they even need to assault.

In regards to Death Cults and Assassins, they are better off in a Grey Knight list. Hammerhand greatly boosts their effectiveness, a long with Acolyte with Meltaguns and assault transports. IMO, the lack of Hammerhand in codex Sisters of Battle should make their Crusaders and Death Cults slightly cheaper in points cost. In any case, it won't mean anything if they don't have stubborn at a squad level rather than IC. A tar-pit must endure, not break and get slaughtered in sweeping advance.

I doubt they would retain use as a tarpit. FC gives a similar bonus to hammerhand and the faith powers would make such a unit more of an alpha strike counter-assault unit then a tarpit. The kind of thing that you throw at asssault terms after lighting them up in range.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Penitent engines have more firepower then killa kanz. Two heavy flamers is significantly more damaging then a single skorcha and will average much higher results then a grotzooka. They don't have the ranged tankbusting a rokkit gives, but then that's an afterthough on kans as well given how poor they are with the weapons. You also just compared them to units that are averagely 140-100-and 35 points. All three of which would die to a PE in combat.

Ha! Ha! Wow, are you serious? You crack me up. Penitent Engines DO NOT have more firepower than Killa Kanz.

Killa Kanz can have:
-big shoota
-rokkit launcha
-kustom mega-blasta
-skorcha (Heavy Flamer)
-grotzooka

Penitent Engine has.... 2 Heavy Flamers. Rokkit Launcha is not an afterthought on kans. They have BS3, which is considerably good for what they do. Plus, their weapon load out makes them more versatile whereas Penitent Engines are only decent against infantry and aren't reliable against vehicles moving cruising speed. Also, footslogger w/ template weapons rarely gets a chance to use it. It's easy to anticipate their move and deploy/move in such a way to minimize the damage.

It's difficult to tarpit a unit with that many heavy flamers. Mass squads like orks will have issues when half or more of their number are killed. They can't be tarpitted in a cost effective manor in combat by anything else given their strength and number of attacks. Even then, at 45 points you've succedded in tarpitted all of 135 points of models. They are very bad tarpit targets. The uncontrollability is their primary problem, but given the sisters likely use as a short range fire base army I find it hard to believe that they could be kited with much success. Running a unit beside them or intervening with a transport is all it takes to change what counts as the shortest distance of travel. In all likelihood the kiting unit would be killed by shooting before it could lead them to do much other then an unwanted assault. Even then, given the sheer power the PE has in assault it's unlikely something could survive the assault and with a reasonable consolidation you're not losing much for a turn.

Penitent Engines don't have fleet. Thus it's fair game for either side to shoot and assault before the other gets a chance to use their weapon. Crusader with Assault Terminators can easily get the drop on Penitent Engines. As mentioned previously, template weapons is a poor choice on a walker. Space Marines can get by thanks to better delivery methods such as Drop Pods. Penitent Engines don't have that luxury.

Firstly they do come with extra armor and have a 6+ invlun which offsets the 16% death chance with a 16% chane to ignore damage. If you want to compare them to a rhino sure, but that rhino averages roughly 7 str 10 attacks per assault and carries two weapons that are typically tank mounted. I don't believe 80 points is the right price. They werent used before primarily becuase they didn't fit the metagame and because they were pricey. 45 is inane. Thats an utterly unrealistic number for something that will kill every other unit in the game in combat in an equivalently pointed fight and which also carries enough squad busting ranged weaponry to anihalate most high number squads before they even need to assault.

As Janthkin pointed out, Killa Kanz can be protected by Big Mek's Kustom Forcefield. 6++ is laughable. Majority of the time, they will fail and die. Also, Killa Kanz can upgrade to Armour Plates or Grot Riggers.

I doubt they would retain use as a tarpit. FC gives a similar bonus to hammerhand and the faith powers would make such a unit more of an alpha strike counter-assault unit then a tarpit. The kind of thing that you throw at asssault terms after lighting them up in range.

Show me where do they have Furious Charge of any Acts of Faith? Last time I checked, Battle Conclaves do not have any acts of faith. Furthermore, Assault Termies have assault vehicles. What do Battle Conclaves have?

And for the record, all your quotes came from me and not from Janthkin. Get your facts right.

Ha! Ha! Wow, are you serious? You crack me up. Penitent Engines DO NOT have more firepower than Killa Kanz.

Killa Kanz can have:
-big shoota
-rokkit launcha
-kustom mega-blasta
-skorcha (Heavy Flamer)
-grotzooka

Unless you're goig to argue that they can have all thsoe at once then yes, they do. Variety and volume aren't the same thing.

Penitent Engine has.... 2 Heavy Flamers. Rokkit Launcha is not an afterthought on kans. They have BS3, which is considerably good for what they do.

3 shots, 1.5 hits, .75 pens on av11, .375 pens on covered. Short range. Can't run and shoot. Considerably good is not the term I would use. Two heavy flamers can kill entire squads, ignore cover, and can threaten low AV vehicles without missing. 6 heavy flamers against av11 have the same odds in effecting av11 as 3 rokkits do.They won't do the same damage since they cant pen, but given the sisters love for meltaguns and short range firefights I doubt that vehicle would be much of a roadblock.

Plus, their weapon load out makes them more versatile whereas Penitent Engines are only decent against infantry and aren't reliable against vehicles moving cruising speed.

16.5 attacks on the charge with 3, 2.75 hits when needing 6's. 2.75 pens against everything except LRs and monoliths. .91% chance of kill on the charge. Those numbers are actually pretty reliable.

Also, footslogger w/ template weapons rarely gets a chance to use it. It's easy to anticipate their move and deploy/move in such a way to minimize the damage.

My ironclad rarely has that issue. Probably because it's not the only thing in my army. Not everything is going to assault the PE or run away. Obective holders especially will be vulnerable to the templates (ask any guard player about those guns on the chimera).

Penitent Engines don't have fleet. Thus it's fair game for either side to shoot and assault before the other gets a chance to use their weapon. Crusader with Assault Terminators can easily get the drop on Penitent Engines.

6 ATs and a crusader costs more then 9 PEs at 45 points per. If they charged 9 PEs they would lose 5.67 of their number before they even got to attack. If it's 6 and a crusader vs 3 PEs then I'm left wondering what the other 270 points of sisters are doing to make up the difference. Even if it was just six on three the PEs average 2 kills before the ATs go. They're paying for about 66% of what you paid for by accident. Those are damn good attrition rates when fighting assault terms.

As mentioned previously, template weapons is a poor choice on a walker. Space Marines can get by thanks to better delivery methods such as Drop Pods. Penitent Engines don't have that luxury.

I dont think the PE is all that worried about being counter charged by most opponants.

As Janthkin pointed out, Killa Kanz can be protected by Big Mek's Kustom Forcefield. 6++ is laughable. Majority of the time, they will fail and die. Also, Killa Kanz can upgrade to Armour Plates or Grot Riggers.

Grot riggers are pretty bad on a squadron unit and there are ways of screening PEs. You've also highlighted the difference between those two units. People screen the kans so that the kans can screen the boyz. They are a delivery mechanism for other troops. They shoot poorly, they are poor in combat. The PE is a suicide assault unit which happens to be the single most powerful assault unit in the game and which also happens to carry dual heavy flamers. There is a marked difference between what is effecitvely a walking cheap piece of terrain and a 20 foot tall buzz saw that will disintegrate almost anything it touches.

Show me where do they have Furious Charge of any Acts of Faith? Last time I checked, Battle Conclaves do not have any acts of faith. Furthermore, Assault Termies have assault vehicles. What do Battle Conclaves have?

Yeah, I was mistaking celestians with canones as the canones having FC. PE and +1 init is pretty similar (statistically better actually) regardless and the squad benefits from the ICs ability. As for what the battle conclaves have, I think in the new sisters book they have an entire army surrounding them. Like I said in my paragraph, they would be a shock counter assault unit. Not a glass canon. They'll deal with the assault term squad that your opponant managed to bring to your lines, not go out and find it.

And for the record, all your quotes came from me and not from Janthkin. Get your facts right.

Stop multiquoting so much then, I had a lot of names I had to delete.

ShumaGorath wrote:Unless you're goig to argue that they can have all thsoe at once then yes, they do. Variety and volume aren't the same thing.

3 shots, 1.5 hits, .75 pens on av11, .375 pens on covered. Short range. Can't run and shoot. Considerably good is not the term I would use. Two heavy flamers can kill entire squads, ignore cover, and can threaten low AV vehicles without missing. 6 heavy flamers against av11 have the same odds in effecting av11 as 3 rokkits do.They won't do the same damage since they cant pen, but given the sisters love for meltaguns and short range firefights I doubt that vehicle would be much of a roadblock.

And how many turns does it take for Penitent Engines to reach Killa Kanz? They do have an option whether to move forward and engage or move around and shoot. Yeah, good luck getting those Heavy Flamers in range. It's not like the Penitent Engines will arrive without taking casualties. They are AV11 open topped after all. Boyz in the back can declare waagghh and assault the Penitent Engines before they have a chance to use their Heavy Flamers. But if I was an Ork Player (which I'm not), I would shoot at my Lootas at the Penitent Engines. There isn't much in the new Sisters of Battle arsenal to counter range anti-mech infantry. I suppose you could always try deep striking Seraphims (they will scatter) out-flank with Dominions (random board edge and in effective against targets situated in the middle).

16.5 attacks on the charge with 3, 2.75 hits when needing 6's. 2.75 pens against everything except LRs and monoliths. .91% chance of kill on the charge. Those numbers are actually pretty reliable.

You assume all 3 will be left standing to make their attacks.

My ironclad rarely has that issue. Probably because it's not the only thing in my army. Not everything is going to assault the PE or run away. Obective holders especially will be vulnerable to the templates (ask any guard player about those guns on the chimera).

Subjective. I don't know opponents you've faced or their skill level. I seldom see ironclads. Also, you are comparing apples to oranges. Ironclads have better armor, better delivery method, and more firepower. Short range shooty walkers are uncommon in my neck of the woods unless they deep strike via Drop Pod or have Wings of Sanguinius (BA).

I don't have to ask any guard player. They can sit back and pick off open topped walkers with ease. Their Chimeras are more mobile and have fire points. Vets with triple Meltaguns is extremely common. And let's not forget those pesky Vendettas with their 3 TL-Lascannons.

6 ATs and a crusader costs more then 9 PEs at 45 points per. If they charged 9 PEs they would lose 5.67 of their number before they even got to attack. If it's 6 and a crusader vs 3 PEs then I'm left wondering what the other 270 points of sisters are doing to make up the difference. Even if it was just six on three the PEs average 2 kills before the ATs go. They're paying for about 66% of what you paid for by accident. Those are damn good attrition rates when fighting assault terms.

Once again, you put too much emphasis on Penitent Engines all intact long enough to make it into combat. 9 Penitent Engines = 810 points. Crusader + 6 Assault Termiantors = 490 points. Last time I checked, 810 =/= 490 points. It's an unfair comparison. So let's make it even by comparing 6 Penitent Engines (480 points) to the Crusader and its 6 Assault Terminators. And let's assume 6 Penitent Engines are still alive. Also, let's not forget that a huge chunk of points is being spent on a Crusader. Crusader fires its Assault Cannon first. 3.556 hits, 0.329 wrecked and 0.165 explodes. There's a chance one of the Penitent Engines from one of the two squads will bite the dust. So the average attacks from 5 Penitent Engines not assaulting (Assault Terminators will be the ones assaulting because they are inside an assault vehicle) is 22.5 attacks. and 3.13 dead Assault Terminators. 9 Thunder Hammer attacks back, 0.625 explodes, .0833 wrecked, and .416 weapon destroyed. Battle continues until either side is dead.

I dont think the PE is all that worried about being counter charged by most opponants.

And I think most opponents will have to worry about getting charged by PE or flamed by slow moving Heavy Flamers. Not when they can PE to death or tarpit them with hordes or tough to kill assault units.

Grot riggers are pretty bad on a squadron unit and there are ways of screening PEs. You've also highlighted the difference between those two units. People screen the kans so that the kans can screen the boyz. They are a delivery mechanism for other troops. They shoot poorly, they are poor in combat. The PE is a suicide assault unit which happens to be the single most powerful assault unit in the game and which also happens to carry dual heavy flamers. There is a marked difference between what is effecitvely a walking cheap piece of terrain and a 20 foot tall buzz saw that will disintegrate almost anything it touches.

I was pointing out a 1 v1 fight. Yes PE are suicidal squads, which is why I think they could cost 50 points instead of 80 points. Dual Heavy Flamers counts for nothing if they are on a fooslogging walker. I've yet to see a strong counter argument to that.

Stop multiquoting so much then, I had a lot of names I had to delete.

Don't blame me for your mistakes. At least I preview and proof read before I submit.

Almost any I3 or 4 Dread or MC stands a good chance of killing 2 models. There are quite a few things I wouldn't take a PE into.

Penitent Engines sucked in the old codex and they're not getting any better in the "new" one. For anyone that still plays sisters of battle I recommend they watch this.

evilsponge wrote:Penitent Engines sucked in the old codex and they're not getting any better in the "new" one. For anyone that still plays sisters of battle I recommend they watch this.

Sad, but true.

I need something to cheer me up...




The glass is still half full.

Pyriel- wrote:...that basically require a fragile 220p flying chicken plus luck to do their thing.

No more luck than a Penitent Engine squadron does, given they have rage and can be led around by the nose without ever being able to attack. Remember, Rage units can't be actively controlled by their own player, they have to move towards the closest visible enemy unit. Also, Penitent Engines don't have Fleet, so they can't assault on a turn in which they've run. As such, a single fast vehicle can potentially neutralise 9 Penitent Engines for the duration of a battle, just by trailing them away from the bulk of enemy infantry (which are what the PE is designed to kill), all the while the PE squadrons taking leisurely shooting casualties from ranged anti-mech.

The argument is largely academic until we see what the points costs are next month. Remember that we don't know if Conclaves will be Elites - they could be limited to one per Confessor, like Command Squads, in which case the Penitent Engine's primary competition will likely be Repentia. Which at current points costs is a choice between a brown turd and a green turd - they're aesthetically different, but both stink. Assuming that both Penitent Engines and Repentia are Elites. If Penitent Engines are still Heavy Support, then they could cost the same as a Space Marine Terminator per model and they still wouldn't be taken, because the Exorcist remains our must-have model.

So, trying to move past the rowing over Penitent Engines, what do folks think the price of new Repentia should be? Or, rather, how cheap do they have to be to make you field them?

T'would appear that we're about done with regards to news and thoughts relating to the currently released parts of this list. I'm sure there'll be news and rumours with regards to the 2nd part soon enough, it's best that gets it's own thread as/when.

As per usual, feel free to discuss issues raised in this thread in 40K general, background etc etc as appropriate.