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Here's some interesting trivia related to this topic. In spite of:

(1) all the copious and vociferous complaining here on the forum about the new Sisters of Battle rules in this month's White Dwarf and
(2) the constant complaints on the forum that White Dwarf is worthless and that many people here would never, ever buy it and
(3) White Dwarf now costs $9 US per issue

the current issue of White Dwarf seems to be literally flying off the shelves at my local GW shops. I haven't seen an issue sell out this fast since the Spearhead rules appeared in the June issue of 2010.

Which leads me once again to conclude that the 80/20 rule applies to this forum as much as it does to so many other things. In other words, 20% of the people here do 80% of the posting and 80% of the complaining, but they do not in any way represent the majority of users.

BrassScorpion wrote:In other words, 20% of the people here do 80% of the posting and 80% of the complaining, but they do not in any way represent the majority of users.

And 86% of statistics are invented on the spot. Your logic is post hoc ergo propter hoc. I can do PHEPH, too: SoB material accounts for 11.7% of this month's White Dwarf, so there is no causal reason to assume any more than 11.7% of magazine purchases are related to the SoB content, and thus the vast majority of people picking up this month's magazine are doing so for the Vampire Counts cover article. See? Fallacious logic sucks, doesn't it.

That said, I really, really, really hope you're right, and that 100% of White Dwarf sales this month have been made to Sisters of Battle players. It would indicate the army has an utterly vast player base and groundswell of support - thus removing most of the arguments for Sisters of Battle not receiving the full-on Blood-Angels-Codex treatment

BrassScorpion wrote:Here's some interesting trivia related to this topic. In spite of:

(1) all the copious and vociferous complaining here on the forum about the new Sisters of Battle rules in this month's White Dwarf and
(2) the constant complaints on the forum that White Dwarf is worthless and that many people here would never, ever buy it and
(3) White Dwarf now costs $9 US per issue

the current issue of White Dwarf seems to be literally flying off the shelves at my local GW shops. I haven't seen an issue sell out this fast since the Spearhead rules appeared in the June issue of 2010.

Which leads me once again to conclude that the 80/20 rule applies to this forum as much as it does to so many other things. In other words, 20% of the people here do 80% of the posting and 80% of the complaining, but they do not in any way represent the majority of users.

Much as I wish it was cause of Sisters, thats probably due the very cool vampire counts rules and models.

One of my friends that's really into the game and GW in general called me up with the sole intention of making fun of me because he knows I get riled up when GW feths me over and wanted to hear me rage after he read the new codex last week. He was actually even more down on the Sisters of Battle half codex than I am. I highly doubt this is going to jump start a ton of Sister armies because people that already liked the concept currently have the army and were used to better, power games that didn't play aren't going to start up with an obviously underpowered hold over codex and people that didn't want to invest in an expensive army aren't going to suddenly start buying models that are probably worth less points now and in addition aren't even on store shelves.

Any increased sales of this month's White Dwarf are sales from VC players that are desperate for something to make their boring 8th edition Graveguard bunker plus ghoul pit army a little more exciting (which was also the cover story).

Ixquic wrote:One of my friends... making fun of me because he ...wanted to hear me rage...

I don't think you should be calling someone like that "friend"... nemesis or villan sounds more appropriate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrassScorpion wrote:Here's some interesting trivia related to this topic. In spite of:

(1) all the copious and vociferous complaining here on the forum about the new Sisters of Battle rules in this month's White Dwarf and
(2) the constant complaints on the forum that White Dwarf is worthless and that many people here would never, ever buy it and
(3) White Dwarf now costs $9 US per issue

the current issue of White Dwarf seems to be literally flying off the shelves at my local GW shops. I haven't seen an issue sell out this fast since the Spearhead rules appeared in the June issue of 2010.

Which leads me once again to conclude that the 80/20 rule applies to this forum as much as it does to so many other things. In other words, 20% of the people here do 80% of the posting and 80% of the complaining, but they do not in any way represent the majority of users.

Mr. BS, I'm not sure what your post is intended to do other than be inflamitory. It comes off with such animosity seemingly directed at these poster and yet not. You're coming onto a thread and saying, paraphrased..."you're a minority" and "you're too loud and wrong" just because WD is selling well. The simple fact, any time there are new rules in WD it sells well.

That brings me to the next point, people are complaining about the rules, but with a rational basis. I haven't seen anyone in this thread complaining about the price of WD or its quality. The vast body of what you're writing though related it tangential to the discussion.

BrassScorpion wrote:Here's some interesting trivia related to this topic. In spite of:

(1) all the copious and vociferous complaining here on the forum about the new Sisters of Battle rules in this month's White Dwarf and
(2) the constant complaints on the forum that White Dwarf is worthless and that many people here would never, ever buy it and
(3) White Dwarf now costs $9 US per issue

the current issue of White Dwarf seems to be literally flying off the shelves at my local GW shops. I haven't seen an issue sell out this fast since the Spearhead rules appeared in the June issue of 2010.

Which leads me once again to conclude that the 80/20 rule applies to this forum as much as it does to so many other things. In other words, 20% of the people here do 80% of the posting and 80% of the complaining, but they do not in any way represent the majority of users.

Well it is kinda difficult to read the magazine and be disappointed if you don't buy it. I mean it is possible, but I like my FLGS a little to much to use it as a library.

But like I said before, the sisters players as a rule will take these rules and play with them, what else can they do. I just doubt that you will see a new glut of sisters players at the tables or even a strong resurgence of old sisters players. New models and the second half of the codex will of course impact this.

Honestly, I would love to be proven wrong. I would love to see an amazing part 2, new models and an upswing in sales that makes GW reconsider if they are wasting their time with marines. I am just not optimistic about it.

Drag queens of battle.

Just thought I'd coin that phrase.

terranarc wrote:Drag queens of battle.

Just thought I'd coin that phrase.

Wow, you really terranarc'd that post.

Just thought I'd coin that phrase.

Maybe this thread could use a little nap until the next WD comes out.

pretre wrote:Maybe this thread could use a little nap until the next WD comes out.

My thoughts exactly. As the starter of the thread, can I request a mod to pop this thing closed? We can always start a new one when new stuff comes out

Pyriel- wrote:There is no or very limited ecclestariary presence on the really tough death worlds the Astartes recruit from.
I would like to see the church try and steal potential recruits or take from their immediate gene relatives on Mcragge or Nocturne.

Macragge is a death world? When did that happen!?

Eumerin wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:There is no or very limited ecclestariary presence on the really tough death worlds the Astartes recruit from.
I would like to see the church try and steal potential recruits or take from their immediate gene relatives on Mcragge or Nocturne.

Macragge is a death world? When did that happen!?

My thoughts exactly - sure, the polar caps might be a little unfriendly in certain winters, but the rest of the world is meant to be close to a paradise, as I recall.

AllistorPreist wrote:But like I said before, the sisters players as a rule will take these rules and play with them, what else can they do. I just doubt that you will see a new glut of sisters players at the tables or even a strong resurgence of old sisters players. New models and the second half of the codex will of course impact this.

Honestly, I would love to be proven wrong. I would love to see an amazing part 2, new models and an upswing in sales that makes GW reconsider if they are wasting their time with marines. I am just not optimistic about it.

As has been said before, the purpose of this list isn't to drive sales, or else they'd actually make some stuff available to buy. It's a get-you-by list that likely makes for easier errata once 6th edition hits.

And err... in recruiting for the Sisters of Battle, the Ecclesiarchy's Schola Progenium wouldn't actually be "stealing recruits" from the Marines. Because Marines are male-only. Sisters are female-only. Dunno if you noticed, Pyriel.

Dunno if you noticed but i said gene relatives.
I was trying to be sarcastic and humorous at the same time, no need to be obtuse btw, you know perfectly well that I know my fluff

My thoughts exactly - sure, the polar caps might be a little unfriendly in certain winters, but the rest of the world is meant to be close to a paradise, as I recall.

Was referring as much to death worlds as well as to Astartes dominion worlds. Sorry for being to vague.

I don't think he was being obtuse, it sounded to me like you were saying it the way he interpreted it. One must remember the internet has a very thick sarcasm filter.

lol I wasnt referring to him being obtuse but melissia. She knows perfectly well that I know my fluff so I just asked to stop the nitpicking.
She´s a cool person but we have had our share of internet wars, hehe.

As for sarcasm being interpreted to kingdom come online you are perfectly right. I should be more clear in the future.

<broadcast mode active: let's leave the snarky posts out of the thread; it's amazing we've made it this far, really, but tolerance for bickering is low>

The 80 20 Rule or 80 20 Principle is not a statistic, it's a sound, well used, long tried and tested idea. It is easy to find information on it for those who have never heard of it.

Mythal wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote:In other words, 20% of the people here do 80% of the posting and 80% of the complaining, but they do not in any way represent the majority of users.

And 86% of statistics are invented on the spot. Your logic is post hoc ergo propter hoc. I can do PHEPH, too: SoB material accounts for 11.7% of this month's White Dwarf, so there is no causal reason to assume any more than 11.7% of magazine purchases are related to the SoB content, and thus the vast majority of people picking up this month's magazine are doing so for the Vampire Counts cover article. See? Fallacious logic sucks, doesn't it.

That said, I really, really, really hope you're right, and that 100% of White Dwarf sales this month have been made to Sisters of Battle players. It would indicate the army has an utterly vast player base and groundswell of support - thus removing most of the arguments for Sisters of Battle not receiving the full-on Blood-Angels-Codex treatment

80/20 rule is used in economics, also called the Pareto Priniciple....<snarky text redacted>

<ENOUGH; move on to other topics, before I conclude we're done talking about the Sisters themselves>

/angry comments!!!!!!

On a more productive note though, if we see a big enough point drop in penitent engines, what do we think the likelihood is that we might start seeing lists revolving around them.

(keeping in mind that i wouldn't be half surprised to see them reduced to closer to killa kan points values, seeing as they have next to no shooting, similar armor, open topped, etc)

androcles138 wrote:if we see a big enough point drop in penitent engines, what do we think the likelihood is that we might start seeing lists revolving around them.

(keeping in mind that i wouldn't be half surprised to see them reduced to closer to killa kan points values, seeing as they have next to no shooting, similar armor, open topped, etc)

I'd be surprised to see them dip below 50 points, but if they get that low then squadrons of them might be attractive, especially against horde forces. Granted, I had hoped they would gain fleet to offset the loss of Holy Rage, but if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

If we see them at 50, and squads of 3, that means that for 450 points we could have a total 9 pieces of (albeit low) armor for saturation, that though slow wouldn't be half bad in combat.

I think that a case could be made for a list of 3 'cists, 3 3-man penitent engine squads, and the rest as sisters and dominions.

androcles138 wrote:If we see them at 50, and squads of 3, that means that for 450 points we could have a total 9 pieces of (albeit low) armor for saturation, that though slow wouldn't be half bad in combat.

I think that a case could be made for a list of 3 'cists, 3 3-man penitent engine squads, and the rest as sisters and dominions.

I'd agree, if the points work out. I'd also include 9 DCAs with Uriah in a Rhino as an assaulting troubleshooter squad - remembering that Penitent Engines still have Rage, so can be led around the houses by a canny opponent without ever getting close enough to engage - but I expect he'll get a 'free' Conclave without it eating up a slot. Even if it eats up one of the Elites slots, I'd prefer six PEs + Uriah w/ Conclave, just to have something I can direct at the enemy. Despite the buff, I still can't see Repentia making much of a comeback unless they can take a Dedicated Transport - and even then, I think the maths falls in favour of 9 DCAs + Uriah over 9 Repentia + Mistress.

Apart from that, the more Sisters in the force the better, to my mind.

I just have to say, I don't understand all the complaining, this army update looks amazing, and the real actual SOB players know we're in for a points dip. So instead of faith being the backbone of the army, it's more as a helpful tool, but not to be relied on. Biggest example of this is when you look at the fact you get 1d6 faith in a 400 point or a 3000 point game. Instead the army is going to be more focused on the saturation of cheap but still elite troops that can carry flamer and melta, also cheaper Rhinos.

If we break down a Sister Squad and look at it from 3rd codex and the new WD codex here's what we possibly lose; Stubborn, Faith powers that make the squad durable and able to fill multiple rolls +2 str, rending, +2 int, +3 invul... so on. What we gain is; Frag and Krak nades, Bolt Pistols a +6 invul and a 50/50 shot at passing a faith check compared to something like 90% of the old codex. It's not uncalled for to think we're going to get a big points dip.

So, at 8 points a Sister we can see -30 points from the cost of a basic sister squad and -23 points per Rhino (not taking extra armor for 15, vs taking for 5 in the old codex, +free smoke launchers)

So per squad, we're going to see a point reduction of something like 50 points per Sister squad in a Rhino.

multiply that by 6 troop choices and we're saving 300 pts for just the troop choice alone.

Of course this is all speculation, but we do know Rhinos will be 35 points a peice (standard among codexes), and most likely 45 pts for Immolators (same as razorback).

Still, if we do receive a reduction (which we should) I could care less about faith, or a white dwarf release, I'm actually really excited and optimistic, because I've been winning with an out of date army, and now that it's updated and most likely cheaper, I see this army becoming quite a bit meaner.

Kreedos wrote:I just have to say, I don't understand all the complaining, this army update looks amazing, and the real actual SOB players know we're in for a points dip. So instead of faith being the backbone of the army, it's more as a helpful tool, but not to be relied on. Instead it's going to be more focused on the saturation of cheap but still elite troops that can carry flamer and melta, also cheaper Rhinos.

If we break down a Sister Squad and look at it from 3rd codex and the new WD codex here's what we possibly lose; Stubborn, Faith powers that make the squad durable and able to fill multiple rolls +2 str, rending, +2 int, +3 invul... so on. What we gain is; Frag and Krak nades, Bolt Pistols a +6 invul and a 50/50 shot at passing a faith check compared to something like 90% of the old codex. It's not uncalled for to think we're going to get a big points dip.

So, at 8 points a Sister we can see -30 points from the cost of a basic sister squad and -23 points per Rhino (not taking extra armor for 15, vs taking for 5 in the old codex, +free smoke launchers)

So per squad, we're going to see a point reduction of something like 50 points per Sister squad in a Rhino.

multiply that by 6 troop choices and we're saving 300 pts for just the troop choice alone.

Of course this is all speculation, but we do know Rhinos will be 35 points a peice (standard among codexes), and most likely 45 pts for Immolators (same as razorback).

Still, if we do receive a reduction (which we should) I could care less about faith, or a white dwarf release, I'm actually really excited and optimistic, because I've been winning with an out of date army, and now that it's updated and most likely cheaper, I see this army becoming quite a bit meaner.

I'm not relishing how much money I'd have to spend to get my army back up to snuff.

I ran Sisters as 5 20 man squads with Karamazov as the HQ at one point, worked rather well, but left me with like 120+ Sisters, so I don't mind as much that I'll actually be able to use them.

Kreedos wrote:I just have to say, I don't understand all the complaining, this army update looks amazing, and the real actual SOB players know we're in for a points dip. So instead of faith being the backbone of the army, it's more as a helpful tool, but not to be relied on. Instead it's going to be more focused on the saturation of cheap but still elite troops that can carry flamer and melta, also cheaper Rhinos.

I think the level of complaining has been exacerbated by indiscriminate and largely uncontrolled trolling, to be fair. The two topics that seem to consistently come up are the changes to the Faith system (which, unless accompanied by a commensurate points dip per sister, is a nerf to the army), and the removal of the Immolator's pseudo-fast quality (which may still be rectified by wargear in the second half of the Codex - but, if it isn't, represents a bit of spite on the part of Ward'n'Cruddace, since Sisters had that before BA got Fast Flamerbacks). There are other concerns, like a potential nerfing of the specials-to-models ratio the Dominions had in C:WH, or nerfs to the Exorcist Launcher, but all of those are speculative and unconfirmed, and the truth won't be known until we see the next White Dwarf.

Personally, I think that the effectiveness of the Codex hinges on points costs and wargear options. Going over it in my head, I can see how I'd make a force work if the points pan out the way everyone's hoping and there are no nasty surprises in terms of weapons loadouts. I certainly don't think the White Dwarf Codex will kill the army - but it also won't breathe any new life into it, due to the lack of 'cool' units and the lack of new plastics - for that, we'll need the Dark Eldar treatment, and my biggest worry about the WD Codex is that it might have postponed us getting that treatment for another three years.

If you read the exorcist entry out of WD It sounds exactly like the old launcher, with a variable amount of shots, but a chance to roll 1 shot in which that would be (the machine spirit failing) like it says in the codex entry.

Also, I highly doubt that dominions will experience any changes to their load out or else they wouldn't be considered a specialist squad anymore and there would be no reason to have them besides scouts, I could understand if they made them troops with scouts, but they didn't.

Also if you didnt catch it, Retributor squads can take 4 heavy flamers that rend with their faith power. That sounds disgusting and can fit the role of taking out elites.

Kreedos wrote:Also, I highly doubt that dominions will experience any changes to their load out or else they wouldn't be considered a specialist squad anymore and there would be no reason to have them besides scouts, I could understand if they made them troops with scouts, but they didn't.

Well, I meant more needing 10 Dominions to take 4 special weapons, rather than the current 5 Dominions. But I agree, I suspect it's just more doomsaying from folks out to demonise Games Workshop as money-grubbing monsters trying to make us replace all our Immolators with Rhinos

Kreedos wrote:Also if you didnt catch it, Retributor squads can take 4 heavy flamers that rend with their faith power. That sounds disgusting and can fit the role of taking out elites.

The EZ-Bake oven - it might actually be good enough to displace one of my Exorcists, but I'd need to do a little friendly testing first to see how they handle. I used to occasionally run EZ-Bake Lite with Dominions squads using old Divine Guidance (which did effectively the same thing as new Divine Guidance, but for every unit instead of just Retributors) and I have very fond memories of it.

androcles138 wrote:If we see them at 50, and squads of 3, that means that for 450 points we could have a total 9 pieces of (albeit low) armor for saturation, that though slow wouldn't be half bad in combat.

I think that a case could be made for a list of 3 'cists, 3 3-man penitent engine squads, and the rest as sisters and dominions.

At 50 they're significantly better then killa kans while being all of 5 points more. Having that many attacks at that strength with that level of surviveability for only 50 points would be good. Really really good. At 450 you're getting 9 Penitent engines or a terminator squad. Nine penitents is not equivalent to 10 terminators.