Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Correct, but it also means they are not bad in cc, they have assault weapons, and gk units that are good in cc can back them up.

Gk can play assault based lists but don't need to. Strike squads work in assault because they have whittled down the squad they are assaulting with stormbolters and psycannons. I've held up a strike squad with a nurgle daemon prince for three turns and won in the end. Shoot my DP and ground it, then shoot it some more and then I'm not winning the battle. Thre unit I fear the most for my daemons are DKs. Of coourse i hate their vehicle spam as well where they leave me no room to DS safely.

Random thought I had today.
On a Henchman carrying a plasma gun, would it be worth upgrading his armor to carpace or power armor to deal with overheating?
Are power armored henchmen ever worth it?

I mainly ask because modelling henchmen with power armor would be, in most cases, easier than converting guardsmen's weapons. Sisters of Battle and Space Marines both come with bolters, which is the ideal weapon for henchmen.

No. Upgrading the armour of Henchmen is never a good idea. It takes away from the point of the unit; cheap throwaways.

 Dunwich wrote:
Random thought I had today.
On a Henchman carrying a plasma gun, would it be worth upgrading his armor to carpace or power armor to deal with overheating?
Are power armored henchmen ever worth it?

I mainly ask because modelling henchmen with power armor would be, in most cases, easier than converting guardsmen's weapons. Sisters of Battle and Space Marines both come with bolters, which is the ideal weapon for henchmen.

No, use divination to TL the plasma then they only overheat 1/36 shots.

 felixcat wrote:

Gk can play assault based lists but don't need to. Strike squads work in assault because they have whittled down the squad they are assaulting with stormbolters and psycannons.

Which is the plan I expect most units I assault to have taken losses due to stormbolters and psycannons. Those grenades with strike squads will almost gurantee victory once you reach combat with an enemy that has been peppered to death.

 felixcat wrote:

I've held up a strike squad with a nurgle daemon prince for three turns and won in the end. Shoot my DP and ground it, then shoot it some more and then I'm not winning the battle. Thre unit I fear the most for my daemons are DKs. Of coourse i hate their vehicle spam as well where they leave me no room to DS safely.

Shooting is a good way of killing things but we cant underestimate our force weapons.

Has anyone tried to run MSU's of footslogging strike squads? I'm trying to make a pure GK (no inquisitors/henchman) list where my goal is to keep my troops as cheap as possible so I can bring in other goodies (DKs, SRs, etc.)

I don't think footslogging MSU works out very well. Its not enough bodies to gives us durable vehicles.

Right now I'm on the fence with vehicles. I've been considering running foot slogging Strikes, but I feel Strikes in Rhinos can work well too.

 Red Comet wrote:
I don't think footslogging MSU works out very well. Its not enough bodies to gives us durable vehicles.

Right now I'm on the fence with vehicles. I've been considering running foot slogging Strikes, but I feel Strikes in Rhinos can work well too.

I'd keep them in cover as often as possible. I know in 6th that can only go so far, but it has worked our for me before with draigowing...

The biggest problem I have with rhinos now, besides the no assaulting, is that unless you get the first, its all but guaranteed that some of them will get popped, at which case you wasted 40+pts and might as well have just foot slogged anyway. At least razorbacks mitigate this by having weapons that somewhat make up for this, but still...

As to the rhino's question, I've found out quite early in my 6th experience to just think of rhinos as a 40 point bolter marine with some extra armor and or 50 points for a HB varient. I really haven't been transporting troops with them much anymore and use it as mobile cover with men running outside of them. With tracks instead of hovering bases, my rhinos can completely block LOS to squads behind them. I use them to either shoot or provide flat out LOS blocking during the shooting phases.

This essentially lets me keep my assault potential as things close but it does make me more vulnerable to barrage weapons which luckily aren't currently in large enough numbers in most take all comer lists.

While shooting is very strong and assault quite a bit weaker, I really still have a healthy respect for assaulting as it still can do alot of damage or receive a lot of damage very fast.

As an aside, I've been fiddling with my techmarine some more lately. It's an old model (and I have 3 of them)



the weapon he's holding looks very much like a power axe so I've been using him as an Ap2, str 6 weapon/ sometimes str 7 with hammer hand. I just keep debating on if I possibly want to buff him up a bit with either a hammer/halberd or maybe falchions. He's almost always in with a squad of purifiers or terminators so I've usually had challenges handled by the sarge or any random paladin but I'm kind of wondering if I might be better served with some other sort of weapon.

Typically I run him as a grenade caddy to allow hammerhand stacking to kill T4 FnP's. (rad makes T3, hammerhand from squad gives 5, hammerhand from techmarine gives str 6, ID and 2+ to wound)

Brief battle report synopsis:

I ran 2000pts of GK's -

Coteaz
Inquisitor - Psyker, Psykatroke grenades
10x Purifiers - 4x Psycannons, 5x Halberds, Psybolt Ammo
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, Hammer
11x Henchmen - 3x Servitors w/Plasma Cannons, Boltguns on henchmen
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator


My opponent ran 2200pts of daemons (I gave him an extra 200pts as a handicap) -

Fateweaver
Bloodthirster (Warlord) - not sure what upgrades
5x Flamers
5x Flamers
5x Flamers
20x Pink Horrors - Bolt
10x Pink Horrors - Bolt
5x Pink Horrors - Bolt
5x Pink Horrors - Bolt
9x Screamers
Daemon Prince - 3+
Daemon Prince - 3+
Daemon Prince - 3+


GK1 - My grey knights went first. I leave 1 unit of strikers in reserves. All 3 squads cast Warp Quake. Coteaz casts Prescience.

Daemons 1 - He gets his preferred wave. Everyone deepstrikes back but Fateweaver scatters forwards into I've Been Expecting You range. Coteaz and his prescient purifiers shoot down the swooping Big Bird.

GK2 - Coteaz casts Misfortune on the enemy Warlord - the bloodthirster. Shooting takes out the daemon Warlord bloodthirster, 1 DP and almost the 20-man horror unit.


I call the game here as I didn't want to discourage my opponent too much. The domination was obvious. Striker-S5-stormbolter-spam is the rock to daemon scissors.

Striker-S5-stormbolter-spam is the rock to daemon scissors.

Well your opponent I'm sure was anice guy but he ran five FMCs. That is a no go against a typical GK list. I also see a lot of players relying on flamers and less screamers. You need screamers against GK (unfortunately my list has none but I have a CSM allied detachment to really help me out). Daemons are still struggling at times with the same weaknesses of 6ed. If we go second (usually a good idea against many lists to avoid a first turn torrenting) we lose against GK. It allows them to get warp quake up. Daemons can get some very bad scatters. I can't tell you how often this has happened to me. GK with enough bodies can cut of the areas we can DS safely - a major issue. Too many tables just don't have enough terrain. If you are playing daemons this is bad. So with all this to overcome GK is really an almost impossible nut to crack if you are going flying circus with five FMCs. I've also mentioned this before ... The three units daemons do not want to see
Coteaz
Strike Psycannon spam
Dreadknights
I have no good answers unless I radically change my list to be GK specific and even then it is an uphill battle. I have MoN CSM bikes, MoN oblits, sorcerer which help level the table. I use tough models - GuO which is unpopular and sometimes bloodcrushers ( which have been nerfed but are tough). My last game against GK was a loss facing a rhino/GK/Strike list that just controlled the center of the board and left me but one viable spot to drop in - lol. Even getting the rhinos helps little. They just provide cover for the GKs anyway. DKs kill just about anything in my list.

1 Fateweaver 333
1 Great Unclean One; Breath of Chaos; Cloud of Flies 195 (warlord - strategic)
1 Chaos Sorcerer; Lvl3; Mark of Nurgle; Burning Brand of Skalathrax; Gift of Mutation; Bike 180 (nurgle/telepathy)
7 Flamers of Tzeentch 161
3x 5 Horrors of Tzeentch; 3 Bolt of Tzeentch; Changeling 290
17 Chaos Cultists; Mark of Nurgle 112
5 Chaos Bikers; Mark of Nurgle; 2 Meltaguns; Power Sword; Veterans of the Long War 180
2x 1 Daemon Prince; Daemonic Flight; Mark of Nurgle; Iron Hide; Cloud of Flies; Noxious Touch; Daemonic Gaze 470
1 Obliterator; Mark of Nurgle 76
==1997==

I know - a strange list but it allows me to set down 2/3 of my army turn one and deploy at least 1/4 of my army where needed without risk. Still not a great counter to GK. It has its moments. It can hurt some lists. But GK - well. I'm out shot badly by GK and MoN only helps so much.

CKO wrote:Shooting is a good way of killing things but we cant underestimate our force weapons.

Nobody is underestimating our Force Weapons, but again, having Force Weapons doesn't make you a combat unit. This is especially true in 6th, which is a shooting game. People make the common misconception that if you can't compete in assault you can't compete, but that is very far from the truth.

So guys I've been out of the country for a couple of weeks, what have I missed besides the obvious release of CSM?

Got a tournament tomorrow, no idea what I'm going to take besides some terminators and DKs, heh.

Actually this is what I am going to take, I have no idea how it will work:

Draigo
5 Paladins 2MCPsycannons

Coteaz
10 Purifiers, 4 Psycannons, Psybolts, 2 Halberds, 1 DH

5 Strikers, 1 Psycannon, 1 DH

Dreadknight with Sword & Incinerator
Dreadknight with Sword & Incinerator

1499pts

Not enough scoring units, but I guess I'll see how it goes. Been in Costa Rica getting married for 2 weeks, so not much playtime beforehand. Also will be picking up the Chaos book

Will use Psychic Communion to DS both of the DKs most likely, or at least 1 of them depending on whats in the field. Coteaz will stay with the Purifiers to give them divination powers for all of those s5 and s7 shots. 40 wounds total I think, should be decently resilient if nothing else. Would have liked to bring a psyrifle dread, but ran out of room. They really need to go up from 1500pts at the local tournament.

With Grand Strategy potentially every unit in your list could be scoring. At minimum, all your infantry are scoring. It's not so much lack of scoring as it is lack of models.

I like the list though, it is incredibly scary and you seemed to have squeezed in as much as possible.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
So guys I've been out of the country for a couple of weeks, what have I missed besides the obvious release of CSM?

Got a tournament tomorrow, no idea what I'm going to take besides some terminators and DKs, heh.

Actually this is what I am going to take, I have no idea how it will work:

Draigo
5 Paladins 2MCPsycannons

Coteaz
10 Purifiers, 4 Psycannons, Psybolts, 2 Halberds, 1 DH

5 Strikers, 1 Psycannon, 1 DH

Dreadknight with Sword & Incinerator
Dreadknight with Sword & Incinerator

1499pts

Not enough scoring units, but I guess I'll see how it goes. Been in Costa Rica getting married for 2 weeks, so not much playtime beforehand. Also will be picking up the Chaos book

Will use Psychic Communion to DS both of the DKs most likely, or at least 1 of them depending on whats in the field. Coteaz will stay with the Purifiers to give them divination powers for all of those s5 and s7 shots. 40 wounds total I think, should be decently resilient if nothing else. Would have liked to bring a psyrifle dread, but ran out of room. They really need to go up from 1500pts at the local tournament.

I think it's got some potential but I worry about your list vs heavy armor lists and fliers for the most part. Also the DK's have teleporters? It's gonna be a pretty slow list unless you got some good deep strike going on in there. Congratz on getting married btw. I barely remember my weddings, it was all such a blur of activity.

 sudojoe wrote:


I think it's got some potential but I worry about your list vs heavy armor lists and fliers for the most part. Also the DK's have teleporters? It's gonna be a pretty slow list unless you got some good deep strike going on in there. Congratz on getting married btw. I barely remember my weddings, it was all such a blur of activity.

I'd prefer they have teleporters, but they are really expensive. And yes, it will be slow, probably slower than I prefer; hopefully some deep-strikes will go well with the DKs.

Local meta doesn't have too much heavy armor or chimera spam etc, so I should be alright in that department.

Thanks for the congrats as well

He mentioned flyers as well. Purifiers are the only thing there with much of a chance.

Congrads also.

Won 1st place general, didn't have much of a problem with anything other than some cocked dice shenanigans from one of my opponents. Still ended up winning that game, but Eldrad didn't die.

Also had some Draigo v Draigo action with his allied Draigo(+terms), somehow mine won with no wounds on him, while the other Draigo had 4. Karma.

Will try to post a more detailed report of my games soon.

1st game was vs Necrons

2nd game was vs SM + Guard allies

3rd game was vs Eldar + GK allies

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
Won 1st place general, didn't have much of a problem with anything other than some cocked dice shenanigans from one of my opponents. Still ended up winning that game, but Eldrad didn't die.

Also had some Draigo v Draigo action with his allied Draigo(+terms), somehow mine won with no wounds on him, while the other Draigo had 4. Karma.

Will try to post a more detailed report of my games soon.

1st game was vs Necrons

2nd game was vs SM + Guard allies

3rd game was vs Eldar + GK allies

Nice going there, so paladins can still work then?

How did you deal with flyers?

Paladins are fine, you just have to play smarter with them; the only time I lost any was when I got into CC with the other Draigo group, and he only had terminators; turns out a Daemon hammer can still mess up Paladins pretty bad.

I actually didn't run into any fliers that time, although I would have dedicated Coteaz and his group of purifiers shooting at them with Prescience.

I'll be honest and say I am surprised, but fair play, and well done.

Seems your meta is a lot different to what I expecting. Looking forward to reading those reports to get a better insight.

I was going to add a necron flyer wing to my grey knights, 2 units of 5 immortals in night scythes, a doom scythe.

However, after lurking around the local forums for upcoming tournaments. With forgeworld allowed here in NZ, every man and his dog is buying up on sabre platforms, hyperoius platforms etc.

This seems to be the way my meta is changing to, anti flyers, so maybe a straight foot list would be better, and just take on enemy flyers with mass shooting.

Thoughts?

2 strikes 1 interceptors and coteaz in an ambush squad is pretty much the auto win if gk goes 1st.

Purgatorial squads with quad incinerators would be even uglier on a coteaz mishap. Every deamon in the unit would take 4 str 6 hits from the incinerators.

tuiman wrote:
I was going to add a necron flyer wing to my grey knights, 2 units of 5 immortals in night scythes, a doom scythe.

However, after lurking around the local forums for upcoming tournaments. With forgeworld allowed here in NZ, every man and his dog is buying up on sabre platforms, hyperoius platforms etc.

This seems to be the way my meta is changing to, anti flyers, so maybe a straight foot list would be better, and just take on enemy flyers with mass shooting.

Thoughts?

I don't really know the rules for the sabres so I can't really comment. What's the rules for those things

They have interceptor, skyfire, twin-linked lascannons or autocannons, taken in squads instead of heavy weapon teams. T7 because of artillery rules etc.

Now, I'm not saying they will break flyers. However, if more people are using them, would it be wiser to not take any flyers at all?

I think it'd still be useful as you can neuter those things via some sort of assault or deep striking unit or just swarm them with numbers. They appear to be competing with IG heavy slots I'm guessing so that's solid gold territory that you are talking about for points to fight over. Even if all camped in the corner, they just gave up board control and you really have to move around in 6th to win the game as most things are based on objectives control.

May want to balance out some of those flier only lists though like the necrons are running to include some fast attcking or deep striking units such as wraiths and veil-tek's (which most smarter meta players are already doing) and as for GK, we'll really rarely get above 1-2 fliers without allies so it doesn't change much but maybe target prirority. Modrak deep striking turn one could be very useful for taking out these manned arty platforms.

Nope they sabres are troops choices & scoring units. As part of an infantry platoon IG can purchase 5 squads of 3 sabres as part of a single troops choice, and at 50 each for tl ac or 60 each for tl lc the only issue is going to be price in points & $. They can also receive orders to reroll successful cover saves, or unpin if they went to ground for a 2+ cover save behind an aegis. Which reminds me besides being t7 the guns have 2 wounds and the guardsmen have 2 wounds so if 4 unsaved wounds are dished out to a squad it's only going to remove 1 sabre and 2 guardsmen. 6 ac sabres and 6 lc sabres at 660 points sounds good to me. That's 48 wounds at t7 that fits nice behind an aegis.

Sabres only have 2 weaknesses.

Weakness #1 They are immobile and are removed if they break, but that can be largely negated by taking a lord commissar as a hq, give him a camo cloak, join a sabre squad and they are t7 cover 3++ with a 12" ld10 bubble for the rest of the sabres.

Weakness #2 they are forge world, and they don't do a very good job at convincing people that forge world should be allowed in tournaments.

tuiman wrote:
They have interceptor, skyfire, twin-linked lascannons or autocannons, taken in squads instead of heavy weapon teams. T7 because of artillery rules etc.

Now, I'm not saying they will break flyers. However, if more people are using them, would it be wiser to not take any flyers at all?

So? Many armies pack meltas and missiles....do you see mech going away because of that? Well, kinda....but that is more because of 6E vehicle rules rather than those anti-tank weaponry. Really, while flyers are good, flyer armies are few with the exception of the crons. To bring dedicated AA weaponry is to make your army weaker against the majority of the armies out there. Also, the damage output of those types of guns aren't very impressive either. A quad-gun only averages about 1.5 Hull Points of damage. The Icarus lascannon even less than that. Seriously, you don't have too much to fear unless your opponent is spamming those weaponry....and if they do, then they probably won't make it pass Round 1 with a win in tournament play unless they actually go up against a flyer army....and even then, it is no guarantee that such tailored armies will get the win.

If you want to add scythe-cron allies, go for it. The benefits they bring far outweighs the very few exploitable weaknesses that they have.

 jy2 wrote:

tuiman wrote:
They have interceptor, skyfire, twin-linked lascannons or autocannons, taken in squads instead of heavy weapon teams. T7 because of artillery rules etc.

Now, I'm not saying they will break flyers. However, if more people are using them, would it be wiser to not take any flyers at all?

So? Many armies pack meltas and missiles....do you see mech going away because of that? Well, kinda....but that is more because of 6E vehicle rules rather than those anti-tank weaponry. Really, while flyers are good, flyer armies are few with the exception of the crons. To bring dedicated AA weaponry is to make your army weaker against the majority of the armies out there. Also, the damage output of those types of guns aren't very impressive either. A quad-gun only averages about 1.5 Hull Points of damage. The Icarus lascannon even less than that. Seriously, you don't have too much to fear unless your opponent is spamming those weaponry....and if they do, then they probably won't make it pass Round 1 with a win in tournament play unless they actually go up against a flyer army....and even then, it is no guarantee that such tailored armies will get the win.

If you want to add scythe-cron allies, go for it. The benefits they bring far outweighs the very few exploitable weaknesses that they have.

Hmm, sweet as.

Was just something I was noticing is how many people are going anti-flyer, but as you say, only crons are mass flyer based so against all others its less effective. Another case of rock scissors paper Im feeling. Willl try out my Gk + Necron Scythe wing and see how it goes then

 CKO wrote:

Hq
Xenos Inquisitor Power Armour, Force Sword, Bolt pistol, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke Grenades, 2x Servo Skulls, Psyker Upgrade

Xenos Inquisitor Power Armour, Force Sword, Bolt pistol, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke Grenades, 1x Servo Skulls, Psyker Upgrade

Troops
10x Grey Knight Strike Squad 2xPsycannons, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

10x Grey Knight Strike Squad 2xPsycannons, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

Fast Attack
10x Grey Knight Interceptor Squad 2xIncinerators, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

Heavy Support
Dreadnaught 2xTL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition

Nemesis DreadKnight Personal Teleporter, Nemesis Greatsword, Heavy Incinerator

Ally (Space Marines)
Hq
Librarian Force Axe, Bolt Pistol

Troops
5x Tactical Squad Razorback (TL Heavy Bolter)

Elite
5xAssault Terminator Squad (Th & SS)

I am happy with this list I came in 1st place with it at a small local tournament I participate in. Everything did as expected except the allies, they were useless as some of you stated, there is room for improvement so next time I am going to use this list.

HQ
Librarian - Force Sword, Storm Bolter, Sanctuary, Shourding, Warp Rift

Mordrak

Troops
10x Grey Knight Strike Squad 2xPsycannons, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

10x Grey Knight Strike Squad 2xPsycannons, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

Fast Attack
10x Grey Knight Interceptor Squad 2xIncinerators, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

Heavy Support
Dreadnaught 2xTL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition

Nemesis DreadKnight Personal Teleporter, Nemesis Greatsword, Heavy Incinerator

Nemesis DreadKnight Personal Teleporter, Nemesis Greatsword, Heavy Incinerator

This list is all about mobility and trying to create matchup problems. The 2 dk can shunt move near things that cannot hurt it in cc or near squads it can flame to death. Mordrak will go with one of the Strike Squads and deep strike any where I want on the first turn and will not scatter. Most importantly he gives me grand strategy so I have more scoring units or scout if needed. The librarian can go with Mordrak if there is a good solid warp rift target like nob bikers and he protects squads with shrouding and sanctuary. Or if I dont think I need those powers I can go with prescience.