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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Quick question as I haven't run them yet, but how are Flamers in minimum size units?
Super squishy, but you can hide them easily as they can fly, and your opponent usually will have to dedicate a unit to wipe them off, meaning a disproportionate amount of fire going their way.
I find that Exalted Flamers are better because they can hide behind horrors.
I find that flamers in 3x or 6x units are not good.
Sure they have D6 autohit, but on the other hand they just sit there and die, if you cant manage to hide them until they
get their chance to do dmg.
I would also suggest to play Exalted Flamers.
I find 4x Exalted Flamers is a good number, each set up as one unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/13 18:43:17
Cephalobeard wrote: Exalted flamers outclass normal flamers in every way. Zero contest.
I think this depends on how many characters you bring and how close they'll be...
If you want to spam out characters in order to protect certain ones, ie the changeling, they yeah EFlamers are way better.
However, I used a 6x flamers to escort 1 or 2 characters to great effect as massed flamers is a decent deterrent in this edition.
You could just as easily escort characters with horrors, and then simply kill the threats with other things. Flamers are an easy first blood for your opponent.
I'm definitely not telling you not to do it, I'm just saying it isn't an optimal choice.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am really curious to know how Nurgle daemon lists fare well in this heavy shooting environment. Can a nurgle daemon list player explain to me how you don't get shot off the board? Its not about getting off a turn 1 charge right?
Say you are facing a imperium list with heavy shooting, bubble wrapped with cheap conscripts or infantry. How does a nurgle daemon list approach such a gunline?
Tonight will be my second Nurgle list, and my first 100% nurgle list. Previous one had some R&H artillery, which was nice, but didn't change the game too much.
I'm trying epidemius, 30pb, 3x3 nurglings and a grip of nurgle daemon engines, as well as scabbie. It was suggested by another player who has had a blast with it. I considered bringing a herald to summon scabbie with, but I think I would rather have him draw fire away from the defiler, plague hulk, decimator and other scary stuff.
As soon as the point adjustment for Drones is out, I'll be running the 12 of them I have. I am a little bummed they dont get the -1 to hit when in large groups like PB and pox riders get. On the subject, pox riders have treated me well, but with the changes to drones, I'll have to revisit and see if the riders are even worth it.
The beauty of scabby is that he draws a lot of fire, but he's a red herring.
He's so incredibly hard to kill, that when people are shooing at him, it's usually a waste of time. I've only ever had him die once.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Quick question as I haven't run them yet, but how are Flamers in minimum size units?
I suddenly have to change a list for an upcoming tournament, and have an awkward 90pts to play with (formerly three Malefic Lords)
Flamers do a decent amount of damage. I've used squads of 9 of them before.
Their durability really leaves something to be desired, though. T4, 4++, 2 wounds just vaporizes quickly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/13 20:52:59
Sorry to broke the flow of the topic but I got a question here... The deamon bound engine (decimatoer, slaughterer, blight drone etc...) can I summoned them like any other daemons... i was rereading the rules and i nothing said no.
Anyone got any tips how to make the best use of the changeling in a csm/cd tzeench list?
For tzeench demon units for him to buff im considering having
9 possessed
3 obliterators
Lord and sorceror on disk
3 flamers
2 exalted flamers
Is that enough tzeench daemon units to make the changeling worth it?
Obliterators deep strike, characters don't matter as they can't be targeted. And possessed go in front asap (don't know much about them)?
Changeling is more for Brimstone horror spam and for slower non-character units
rvd1ofakind wrote: Obliterators deep strike, characters don't matter as they can't be targeted. And possessed go in front asap (don't know much about them)?
Changeling is more for Brimstone horror spam and for slower non-character units
Fair point its a shame that hes kind of slow back to the drawing board.
Talking about summoning, how have people found the mechanic? I tried it for the first time today where I summoned 30 Bloodletters. Unfortunately they rolled snake eyes for their charge (just needed an 8" with the banner), not even the reroll stratagem could help me. Needless to say I was a little salty when the entire squad got obliterated in my opponents next shooting phase (although I did apologize to my opponent afterwards)
So I'm confused as to what point values to use for Daemons... the lesser Daemons got updated costs in line with the CSM codex right? But nothing else has yet has it? So swords/axes are much cheaper for CSMDPs, and death guard pay a lot less for drones and nurglings... what's up with that? This needs to be consolidated into an errata really, at least until a daemon codex comes out.
You always have to use the most recent Datasheet.
Changes from the index:
Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Plaguebearers - 7 pts per model
Pink horrors - 8 pts per model
Brimstone horrors - 3 pts per model
Horrors - smite does 1 damage instead of D3, unless there are 10 or more Pink horrors in the unit
Daemonic Icon - 15 pts
Beast of Nurgle - now has 5 wounds and a new ability: when an enemy unit Falls Back from a Beast of Nurgle, roll a die. On 4+, the unit suffers a mortal wound
Plague Drone - 34 pts per model and now have 4 wounds each
Nurglins - 18 pts per model
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/17 15:02:09
rvd1ofakind wrote: You always have to use the most recent Datasheet.
Changes from the index:
Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Plaguebearers - 7 pts per model
Pink horrors - 8 pts per model
Brimstone horrors - 3 pts per model
Horrors - smite does 1 damage instead of D3, unless there are 10 or more Pink horrors in the unit
Daemonic Icon - 15 pts
Beast of Nurgle - now has 5 wounds and a new ability: when an enemy unit Falls Back from a Beast of Nurgle, roll a die. On 4+, the unit suffers a mortal wound
Plague Drone - 34 pts per model and now have 4 wounds each
Nurglins - 18 pts per model
Can you point me to where it says I have to use the most recent data sheet?
Of course I have no problem paying less, but I'm not buying the codices for two armies I don't play...
rvd1ofakind wrote: Obliterators deep strike, characters don't matter as they can't be targeted. And possessed go in front asap (don't know much about them)?
Changeling is more for Brimstone horror spam and for slower non-character units
Fair point its a shame that hes kind of slow back to the drawing board.
What I've - succesfully - tried so far:
On your first turn advance with both The Changelling and the Possesed. They don't shoot so that's is basically the only way to go. Let's assume they end moving 8-9" on average.
Deep strike the Obliterators 9" in front of The Changelling, so they get buffed by his -1 to hit aura. If they are Alpha Legion that makes a -2.
At that point your Obliterators should be 17-18" away your deployment line. That's a good spot to shoot with their 24" range.
On the following turn your Possesed and The Changeling will advance again. Oblits will still stay at range of the Changelling aura.
At that point a Waptime for the Possesed if they haven't charged yet is highly recommended - this normally happens when facing TAU, IG or similar. The Changelling could stay near the Obliterators and summon some horrors or other lesser Daemons if necessary. Don't forget you can cast Smite with him, although I like to cast Boon of Change on the possesed if they are likely to engage.
Hi all, I'm considering the benefits of adding a Daemon detachment to my CSM legion that I'm planning out, and was wondering what the current thinking is regarding the different Gods?
I kinda like the idea of Slaneesh, and the models mostly being fast enough to not need to rely on summoning is very nice. I like seekers and chariots, and have some ideas for conversion for them to fit them into my army "theme" a little better.
I have also always like Papa Nurgle, fluffwise, though I was concerned by the nurgle units all being very slow. However I have now noticed plague drones, and they seem to be a fairly decent unit (especially with the recent buffs). Might allow me to go for a Death Guard detachment, just for nurglings + plague drones + bloat-drones and/or blight haulers, though not yet sure if it's worth it.
Tzeentch I'm not sure on. The idea of flamer units and the blue scribes + other psykers is nice, but I'm not a fan of the models and a lot of them seem to need summoning to get into the fight.
Same with Khorne regarding them needing summoning, though khorne is always a popular choice. Blud.
So yeh, any advice would be lovely. Not going to be my next purchase or conversion project, as I already have a couple on the go, but I'd like to be able to plan ahead a bit!
Planning ahead is probably something we all do despite already having multiple projects going on xD
Tzeentch is the most reliable way to go - Brimstones and Exalted Flamers, mostly, plus The Changeling and a Herald for the buff auras. Flamers are also quite popular, and I haven't seen anyone fielding Blue Scribes.
If you like Slaanesh and are not planing to go super-competitive give it a try. I personally would not field Daemonettes unless I can get my hands on the Juan Diaz ones but Heralds of Slaanesh are one of the best cost-effective Smites in the game (no, Malefic Lords don't count!).
ochobits wrote: Planning ahead is probably something we all do despite already having multiple projects going on xD
Tzeentch is the most reliable way to go - Brimstones and Exalted Flamers, mostly, plus The Changeling and a Herald for the buff auras. Flamers are also quite popular, and I haven't seen anyone fielding Blue Scribes.
If you like Slaanesh and are not planing to go super-competitive give it a try. I personally would not field Daemonettes unless I can get my hands on the Juan Diaz ones but Heralds of Slaanesh are one of the best cost-effective Smites in the game (no, Malefic Lords don't count!).
I was unsure about brimstones, just because it seems like I would have to spend a load of points in reserves to get the most out of a unit... I only briefly worked it out, and may have gotten it wrong, but I'm sure it ended up like 300+ points for a single unit of horrors after taking into account all the reserves stuff...
Exalted flamers on paper I liked, but I dislike the models, so would need to find an alternative to run as a counts-as or conversion. Maybe a chariot model from Sigmar with a big dual-flamer turret?
For Slaanesh, I liked the standard seeker chariot (the exalted one had degrading stats which didn't seem worth the extra points), as well as the normal seeker unit. Don't know how competitive they are though, but they seemed fast and pretty killy.
For Nurgle, nurglings and the drones. Even though nurglings are slow, their ability to infiltrate seemed useful and made up for it.
I could do a mixed daemon force, I would only lose out on daemon specific psychic powers. The herald buffs seemed fairly minor.
He's not talking about using the Split rule and having the models to split Pink Horrors all the way down to Brimstones. No one would advocate for that, in fact, because Pink Horrors and the Split rule in general is terrible. He's advocating just taking several units comprised entirely of Brimstone Horrors. Brimstones are the most durable unit in the game for their point cost, providing a T3 body with a 4++ invul save for only 3 measly points! Their durability is then further enhanced by having The Changeling around so the enemy is -1 to hit when shooting at them. It makes for an extremely efficient block of models that can hold objectives (particularly with Objective Secured in a Daemons detachment) and shield other models behind them, particularly characters.
They won't accomplish much BEYOND being a durable pain in the ass and holding ground/shielding more important models, but you can hardly complain much for fewer than 300 points (for Changeling and 6 units of 10 Brimstones).
Sokhar wrote: He's not talking about using the Split rule and having the models to split Pink Horrors all the way down to Brimstones. No one would advocate for that, in fact, because Pink Horrors and the Split rule in general is terrible. He's advocating just taking several units comprised entirely of Brimstone Horrors. Brimstones are the most durable unit in the game for their point cost, providing a T3 body with a 4++ invul save for only 3 measly points! Their durability is then further enhanced by having The Changeling around so the enemy is -1 to hit when shooting at them. It makes for an extremely efficient block of models that can hold objectives (particularly with Objective Secured in a Daemons detachment) and shield other models behind them, particularly characters.
They won't accomplish much BEYOND being a durable pain in the ass and holding ground/shielding more important models, but you can hardly complain much for fewer than 300 points (for Changeling and 6 units of 10 Brimstones).
Ahh I see! I have a unit of cultists that I would be running anyway (possibly with tide of traitors if the opportunity presents), but I have no issue with including a couple small 10-man horror squads if they're actually decent to use as screening units.
Most of my army is made up of either deepstrikers (oblits, talons) or heavy walkers (maulerfiend, contemptor, giant spawn), which is also why I was looking at faster units, as most of my stuff is either instantly where it wants to be, or is moving 10+ inches per turn. Horrors at a 6" walk would only useful at camping the back field or shielding from deepstrikes behind my lines (which by itself may well be worth their points to be honest).
May be enough for me to paint up a squad of 10 at least!
Hello, first post here. I read all 42 pages and appreciate the information! I am a brand new player who started buying and building a few weeks ago. I've watched a couple games and have a (very) basic grasp of the rules, and have now made my first 1,000 point army list. I own nurgle/tzeentch at the moment.
Any critique given the tools available or suggested additions to a new chaos daemon army I would be glad to hear about. I'm still trying to figure out what extra books I need to get other than index: chaos and the rulebook which I already have.
I have 75 points left over for brimstone horror splitting. Note that I only own 5 more brimstones than I have active in the army (and a lot of pinks that I am being told are sadly trash) so I will be recycling some on death, this is part of the reason for the 5/5 unit makeup.
Models I have available that are not included: More (25 or so pink and 10 blue) horrors, herald of tzeentch on chariot, 9 flamers, 3x nurglings, 3x plague drones, 10-20 more plaguebearers. -- I also have some models in the mail that should be here within a couple weeks, 2x exalted flamers on chariot, more plaguebearers, 10 man 1k suns warpflamer squad, a couple more heralds of tzeentch and 2 daemon princes.
I'll be trying it out this week/weekend hopefully, still need to learn about mission types and special command point rules etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/20 16:44:49
You really have no damage dealers atm apart from the DPs. Blue horrors are much worse than pinks IMO, when taking more than 1 blue. Pinks at least put out some dakka.
When you take this much screen you have to have something you want to protect. Which you don't... really. Might want to cut back on Plaguebearers and blues and get some actual damage in.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/20 08:05:52
rvd1ofakind wrote: You really have no damage dealers atm apart from the DPs. Blue horrors are much worse than pinks IMO, when taking more than 1 blue. Pinks at least put out some dakka.
When you take this much screen you have to have something you want to protect. Which you don't... really. Might want to cut back on Plaguebearers and blues and get some actual damage in.
Thank you for the advice, I considered this last night and made a couple other lists.
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings [11 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon
. Nurgle: Virulent Blessing
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings [11 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Boon of Change
Herald of Tzeentch on Burning Chariot [7 PL, 135pts]: Bolt of Change, Boon of Change, Staff of Change
+ Troops +
Horrors [5 PL, 32pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors [5 PL, 32pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors [5 PL, 32pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
(although I did apologize to my opponent afterwards)
