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If nothing else they’re unit we can use to muck around with the existing Heavy Weapons, see how we feel about them.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If nothing else they’re unit we can use to muck around with the existing Heavy Weapons, see how we feel about them.

Not just Heavies, it includes Specials as well.

Nice.

 SirDonlad wrote:
The primus redoubt entry is definetly an afterthought.
Nice they got the name right but the entry lacks even basic nesessities for the model - the conundrum of what counted as model and what was tile is well known and it doesn't even mention it.
No sheild dome invuln save, no additional weapon mounts, not allowed to target infantry...

The fluff change is irritating.
As per the original unit entry "Constructed in vast numbers by armies of heavy-grade servitors under the aegis of the war-wrights of the mechanicum's macrotek order, such redoubts served to consolidate terras control over newly compliant worlds.."

Now is "Rare even at the height of the Great Crusade, Primus Redoubts are specially constructed by teams of Mechanicum thralls and Tech-Priests for specific engagements."

Feels like a meta-joke- if the original entry was while it was on sale and available for order, while this new entry is after the Redoubt has been out of production for a while and not very popular (most interest I have seen was for a Reaver carapace mount)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Quite like the implementation of the Medusa and Basilisk. Both RS6, but with Ordnance (RS). So when stationary, the RS is doubled.

So whilst they could be driven Willy Nilly up and down the board, they are, as is tradition, best off carefully deployed with as wide a field of fire as possible.

And so we’ve vehicles which can quite happily be mobile, and some you’re best advised to keep still. And with potentially different buffs/penalties, depending on how you choose to look at it.

Similar for the Custodes jetbike spear. One of the profiles has AM0 with Impact (AM) - no need for a brand new rule saying you can only use it on the charge.

I've yet to get hands on the book, but have been playing around with new recruit, did they make it so Leviathans are now either shooty OR melee, no option for 1 gun and 1 ccw? Or is that just an error on the list builder. That would be a big hit for one of my old resin dreads if so.

Let me go check my Liber.

Comes with Heavy Flamers. It must have one of the following options:

1. Two options from the following list:
Siege Claw and Meltagun
Siege Drill and Meltagun
Grav-Flux Bombard
Leviathan Storm Cannon
Cyclonic Melta Lance
2. Paired Siege Claws with two Meltaguns
3. Paired Siege Drills with two Meltaguns

Can then upgrade Heavy Flamers to Twin Volkite Calivers
Can have a Phosphex Discharger.

And trust me. You’ll be wanting the Phosfeckoff Discharger. They’re ace due to Panic (3).

Paired Drill or Paired Claw option are worth it. Drills get higher damage, Claws get +1 A

Ah thanks MDG, at least I don't have to take a saw to another painted model, had enough of that over the editions. I have one with duel melee I'll most likely run as duel Drills (it has 1 of each).
I only play friendly games with friends so it shouldn't be an issue. The Phalanx Warder changes still sting, though I think vet breachers are probably the better option for those models.

It is worth noting that you can double up the Claw or Drill. They’re free equipment, and save you 5 points on the “proper” Dual version for the Claws, but cost 5 points more for the Drills.

Probably worth noting if/when it’s time to shave points during list building.

Glad I rough and ready magnetised mine though.

warl0rdb0b wrote:
I've yet to get hands on the book, but have been playing around with new recruit, did they make it so Leviathans are now either shooty OR melee, no option for 1 gun and 1 ccw? Or is that just an error on the list builder. That would be a big hit for one of my old resin dreads if so.

The files for New Recruit aren't anywhere close to being finished(they even have an entire section on army lists saying that, click the eye icon on "DON'T REPORT BUGS"). They put them up because way too many people were messaging about getting access to the test files.

Honestly, until they're done, you're better off writing lists by hand. There's a lot of function and units missing, lots of missing points, and lots of wrong points.

I'm just not even going to start list tinkering until the New Recruit data is ready, and fine to wait. I ain't figuring out the new system by hand.

It’s honestly not too tricky. Granted, not as instantly accessible as the old FOC. But on the upside, we’ve a lot more flexibility when it comes to it.

The main loss for Marines, outside of spamming Mortifactors from Legend, is a relative scarcity of Dreadnoughts.

It’s also true tanks no longer come in squadrons, but the relevant support detachments usually allow more than one tank type option,

But that reminds me, time to actually figure out a list.

 Prometheum5 wrote:
I'm just not even going to start list tinkering until the New Recruit data is ready, and fine to wait. I ain't figuring out the new system by hand.

Amen brother!

We're getting uncomfortably close to modern day 40K shenanigans here, in terms of list building.

I'm finding list building pretty annoying, way more flipping back and forth because I need to constantly check detachments (split among 3 places - basics in rulebook, extras at the start of the Libres and more extras in your Legion rules) and there's the bonus page flipping to the Weapons page for the cost of heavy/special/melee - and the common price list doesn't make the book any shorter, they still list 1 unit per page and just leave half the page blank.

There IS a significant reduction on rules reference page flipping, like armour, jump packs and bikes just being rolled into the base profiles and you don't need to search for them under wargear rules.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm finding list building pretty annoying, way more flipping back and forth because I need to constantly check detachments (split among 3 places - basics in rulebook, extras at the start of the Libres and more extras in your Legion rules) and there's the bonus page flipping to the Weapons page for the cost of heavy/special/melee - and the common price list doesn't make the book any shorter, they still list 1 unit per page and just leave half the page blank.

Agreed on list building. Hoping a 3rd party or GW official (highly doubt) list building app comes out .

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Let me go check my Liber.

Comes with Heavy Flamers. It must have one of the following options:

1. Two options from the following list:
Siege Claw and Meltagun
Siege Drill and Meltagun
Grav-Flux Bombard
Leviathan Storm Cannon
Cyclonic Melta Lance
2. Paired Siege Claws with two Meltaguns
3. Paired Siege Drills with two Meltaguns

Can then upgrade Heavy Flamers to Twin Volkite Calivers
Can have a Phosphex Discharger.

And trust me. You’ll be wanting the Phosfeckoff Discharger. They’re ace due to Panic (3).

Paired Drill or Paired Claw option are worth it. Drills get higher damage, Claws get +1 A

The change to melee weapons is very weird. In prior editions you would bring one fist/claw and one chainfist/drill, but that is what you don't want to do now, as there's no native dual wield bonus, instead you need to double up on the same weapon to get anything.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yea, Legacies definitely fall short of having a 1:1 rescue rate for old units, but also invent strange new things (Veteran Heavy Support Squad??) that are prime candidates to be dropped in 4.0, it's like they enjoy the drama and want to see it again in 3 years' time

I swear, I saw stuff like the veteran HSS, the mass-heavy-weapon Tartaros, Lernaeans randomly getting autocannon access while practically every other Legion-specific elite lost options, and so on, and just went "That's bait".

Anyone who dares build those units/options should expect them to be elbow dropped right back down to hell when 4.0 drops.

It does allow you a choice of weapons to hit with in combat.

The Claws strike at your base Initiative value. The Drills at I -2.

So, whilst the Drill has Armourbane, and so is excellent against vehicles, the Claw is a preferred weapon against Dreadnoughts and Automata, as you’re not likely to be killed before you can strike.

If only for flexibility, there is still sense in having one of each.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Let me go check my Liber.

Comes with Heavy Flamers. It must have one of the following options:

1. Two options from the following list:
Siege Claw and Meltagun
Siege Drill and Meltagun
Grav-Flux Bombard
Leviathan Storm Cannon
Cyclonic Melta Lance
2. Paired Siege Claws with two Meltaguns
3. Paired Siege Drills with two Meltaguns

Can then upgrade Heavy Flamers to Twin Volkite Calivers
Can have a Phosphex Discharger.

And trust me. You’ll be wanting the Phosfeckoff Discharger. They’re ace due to Panic (3).

Paired Drill or Paired Claw option are worth it. Drills get higher damage, Claws get +1 A

The change to melee weapons is very weird. In prior editions you would bring one fist/claw and one chainfist/drill, but that is what you don't want to do now, as there's no native dual wield bonus, instead you need to double up on the same weapon to get anything.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yea, Legacies definitely fall short of having a 1:1 rescue rate for old units, but also invent strange new things (Veteran Heavy Support Squad??) that are prime candidates to be dropped in 4.0, it's like they enjoy the drama and want to see it again in 3 years' time

I swear, I saw stuff like the veteran HSS, the mass-heavy-weapon Tartaros, Lernaeans randomly getting autocannon access while practically every other Legion-specific elite lost options, and so on, and just went "That's bait".

Anyone who dares build those units/options should expect them to be elbow dropped right back down to hell when 4.0 drops.

Well, that's in 3 years.
In the meantime there's games & fun to be had in the here & now.

ccs wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Let me go check my Liber.

Comes with Heavy Flamers. It must have one of the following options:

1. Two options from the following list:
Siege Claw and Meltagun
Siege Drill and Meltagun
Grav-Flux Bombard
Leviathan Storm Cannon
Cyclonic Melta Lance
2. Paired Siege Claws with two Meltaguns
3. Paired Siege Drills with two Meltaguns

Can then upgrade Heavy Flamers to Twin Volkite Calivers
Can have a Phosphex Discharger.

And trust me. You’ll be wanting the Phosfeckoff Discharger. They’re ace due to Panic (3).

Paired Drill or Paired Claw option are worth it. Drills get higher damage, Claws get +1 A

The change to melee weapons is very weird. In prior editions you would bring one fist/claw and one chainfist/drill, but that is what you don't want to do now, as there's no native dual wield bonus, instead you need to double up on the same weapon to get anything.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yea, Legacies definitely fall short of having a 1:1 rescue rate for old units, but also invent strange new things (Veteran Heavy Support Squad??) that are prime candidates to be dropped in 4.0, it's like they enjoy the drama and want to see it again in 3 years' time

I swear, I saw stuff like the veteran HSS, the mass-heavy-weapon Tartaros, Lernaeans randomly getting autocannon access while practically every other Legion-specific elite lost options, and so on, and just went "That's bait".

Anyone who dares build those units/options should expect them to be elbow dropped right back down to hell when 4.0 drops.

Well, that's in 3 years.
In the meantime there's games & fun to be had in the here & now.

What? Fun? Where have you been? There's no fun allowed, just Doom and Gloom for the foreseeable future.

Until ZM comes out and then we can have fun.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Feels like a meta-joke- if the original entry was while it was on sale and available for order, while this new entry is after the Redoubt has been out of production for a while and not very popular (most interest I have seen was for a Reaver carapace mount)

Weird how everyone only comments on the fluff and not the fact the unit entry isnt fit for purpose.

I dont think the primus redoubt sold well even with the original fluff tbh.
I like them though.
Same with the old DKoK subterranian bunker entrances from the Vraks campaign - practically useless, but they have a charm to them i still like.

 SirDonlad wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Feels like a meta-joke- if the original entry was while it was on sale and available for order, while this new entry is after the Redoubt has been out of production for a while and not very popular (most interest I have seen was for a Reaver carapace mount)

Weird how everyone only comments on the fluff and not the fact the unit entry isnt fit for purpose.

I dont think the primus redoubt sold well even with the original fluff tbh.
I like them though.
Same with the old DKoK subterranian bunker entrances from the Vraks campaign - practically useless, but they have a charm to them i still like.

They should do a MTO of old FW kits, especially terrain.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Feels like a meta-joke- if the original entry was while it was on sale and available for order, while this new entry is after the Redoubt has been out of production for a while and not very popular (most interest I have seen was for a Reaver carapace mount)

Weird how everyone only comments on the fluff and not the fact the unit entry isnt fit for purpose.

I dont think the primus redoubt sold well even with the original fluff tbh.
I like them though.
Same with the old DKoK subterranian bunker entrances from the Vraks campaign - practically useless, but they have a charm to them i still like.

They should do a MTO of old FW kits, especially terrain.

Oh my, if they did another run which didnt have 'saggy tile' i would slap an order down for 3 without thinking about it.

ccs wrote:


Well, that's in 3 years.
In the meantime there's games & fun to be had in the here & now.

Well yeah, but building a model with the mindset of it only lasting 3 years is diametrically opposed to who I am as a player. I am sure this is closer to GW's ideal target audience though (same as with 40k) - buy, play 3 years, replace.

For my part, I put a lot of time and effort into my models. I am in it to have them last as long as the miniatures physically last.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It does allow you a choice of weapons to hit with in combat.

The Claws strike at your base Initiative value. The Drills at I -2.

So, whilst the Drill has Armourbane, and so is excellent against vehicles, the Claw is a preferred weapon against Dreadnoughts and Automata, as you’re not likely to be killed before you can strike.

If only for flexibility, there is still sense in having one of each.

The drill still swings before powerfists and the like so it's more than good enough into most targets. You already had that flexibility last edition, and gained an attack as well. It's not even remotely worth giving up a gun for that now.

Very few things are going to just straight up kill a Dreadnought at initiative, let alone a Leviathan, and a Gravis Chainfist has no drawbacks beyond that initiative. And if you're going to fight an enemy Dreadnought, whittling it down first with a gun in your other arm is going to do you far more good than the difference between fist and chainfist.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Feels like a meta-joke- if the original entry was while it was on sale and available for order, while this new entry is after the Redoubt has been out of production for a while and not very popular (most interest I have seen was for a Reaver carapace mount)

Weird how everyone only comments on the fluff and not the fact the unit entry isnt fit for purpose.

I dont think the primus redoubt sold well even with the original fluff tbh.
I like them though.
Same with the old DKoK subterranian bunker entrances from the Vraks campaign - practically useless, but they have a charm to them i still like.

They should do a MTO of old FW kits, especially terrain.

I wish beyond my wildest dreams they would do this... mainly so I can finish my airborne... by buying crashed Valkyrie Terrain.

 Ashiraya wrote:

ccs wrote:


Well, that's in 3 years.
In the meantime there's games & fun to be had in the here & now.

Well yeah, but building a model with the mindset of it only lasting 3 years is diametrically opposed to who I am as a player. I am sure this is closer to GW's ideal target audience though (same as with 40k) - buy, play 3 years, replace.

For my part, I put a lot of time and effort into my models. I am in it to have them last as long as the miniatures physically last.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It does allow you a choice of weapons to hit with in combat.

The Claws strike at your base Initiative value. The Drills at I -2.

So, whilst the Drill has Armourbane, and so is excellent against vehicles, the Claw is a preferred weapon against Dreadnoughts and Automata, as you’re not likely to be killed before you can strike.

If only for flexibility, there is still sense in having one of each.

The drill still swings before powerfists and the like so it's more than good enough into most targets. You already had that flexibility last edition, and gained an attack as well. It's not even remotely worth giving up a gun for that now.

Very few things are going to just straight up kill a Dreadnought at initiative, let alone a Leviathan, and a Gravis Chainfist has no drawbacks beyond that initiative. And if you're going to fight an enemy Dreadnought, whittling it down first with a gun in your other arm is going to do you far more good than the difference between fist and chainfist.

Kinda, but that’s assuming neither Dreadnought has been shot or beaten up beforehand.

With four attacks, S10, AP2 D3, if I’m engaging another Dreadnought that’s already lost a wound? I’ve a respectable enough chance of toppling it. Though the Siege Claw I modifier is knocked into a cocked hat if I can inflict a Status on the enemy Dreadnought as well, in which case it’s I1 regardless.

Think I’d still prefer the Grav weapon (mmm….easy pinning!) or the Melta (it makes stuff go away real quick like). Storm Cannon isn’t terribly interesting though.

But, my point still stands that having a choice of which weapon to batter someone around the head with isn’t an inherently bad idea. Especially if you’re tight on points, the Drill being a modest 5 points.

Im with Ashiraya.

I mean at this point im basically magnetizing all my heresy marines anyway, but im reluctant to bother building anything that i suspect wont last beyond this edition

Out of Legends, I’m mostly interested in the Mortifactor and Forge Lord.

Those are fairly easy conversion jobs. And being single character models? I wouldn’t feel terrible if they are later dropped.

I’m definitely dubious about anything else Legends.

But, we’ve presumably a bunch of supplements to come, and we’re told some stuff will be coming out of Legends into Proper. What and how much? Only time will tell. But I’d generally suspect Nothing Legion Specific.

Also, a thought and no more on the current 3 year cycle? Prior to 3rd Ed Heresy, that was 40K and AoS. With a “layover year” where we got some other fancy new game. If the layover is to remain, maybe we’ll see a four year cycle again?

I mean, at the root of it is KPI and Month for Month growth. You do a BIg Old Release in July this year? July next year is probably gonna need A Big Old Release for the KPI’s.

Or of course we’ll sadly see the end of “layover” years and odd big box stuff.

Shouldnt it go to 5 year cycles then?

40k
AoS
HH
TOW
Layover

Rinse/repeat?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Shouldnt it go to 5 year cycles then?

40k
AoS
HH
TOW
Layover

Rinse/repeat?

I so hope you are right and they go with this. 3 years is madness.

This would mean the SG department gets 2 main games and would need to release TOW 2nd next year

the problem with a 4 or 5 year cycle for now is that the rules quality isn't there
People already ask for next Edition a year in, if that is extended 2 more years awarnes for issues grows and people are less satisfied without knowing that a new Edition will fix all problems soon.

It is not official but we know it is just 3 years, so if you are unhappy you know that you don't need to wait for long
Changing that without announcing it might cause more problems