Horus Heresy / 30K N&R

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**lord_blackfang**

Whining about whiners without ever addressing anything they say FTW!

An interesting document to be sure, outside Consuls I think we might now have more options, on average, than in 2.0, with the addition of some pretty random stuff like all heavy weapon Tartaros and random options added to datasheets, for example any bike or jetbike anywhere can swap the mounted weapon, where previously only the generic unit could, not any mounted heroes.

The only place still seriously lacking are the Consuls, we got a few random options previously impossible that might honestly just be bad workflow errors (Siege Breakers with jump packs?) but for the most part, apart from jump packs and bikes they still can't choose any wargear, and that's pretty sad.

**Lathe Biosas**

Gert wrote:
Lathe Biosas wrote:
I wonder if this release will make people rethink playing HH 3.0.

From what I've read and seen it seems to be a pretty solid game system.

Depends on if their choice was to not pick it up because they don't want the three year cycle or if the mass gutting of options was the issue.

Options being added in a PDF isn't a magical cure and at best is a plaster over a stab wound. You don't need wizard powers to know the outrage will be back if the rules writers do the exact same thing in 3 years time.

I understand the 3 year cycle thing, that fortunately my two main games avoid (kill team feels like it's on a 3 month cycle, and Adeptus Titanicus is on a 3 eon cycle).

But with these legacies, doesn't that restore most, if not all, of the models that people were upset about losing the ability to play with?

**tauist**

I for one am happy for existing HH players, the legacies drop means their collections are much more valid again. Aint nothing worse than seeing the units you've painstakingly built becoming unusable.

Now, after the legacies PDF having dropped, I am cautiously optimistic about HH3 again. The core rules seemed decent enough, it was just the culling of loadouts which upset me. I might still not ever get to play HH3 though! At least the prospect is back on the table..

On another note, can we finally dial down the complaining about complainers thing? It's very entertaining when done right, but I've lost the feel for it somehow.. s been goin on and on and on.. the dead horse's calling, they want their shtick back..

**Altruizine**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Hi.

If you could address the question, that’d be fab. Because all this is? Is more aimless whining at someone you don’t like.

Ashiraya there provided something of interest in that regard.

Yourself? Just more whining. At me.

Me? I'm just trying to keep the conclusions presented in this thread sensible. We've no evidence that they had the contents of the Legacies document finalized in advance. Any claim that the PDF was fully written and completed early is pure speculation. And I'm not saying I have the answer. I don't know. And neither does anyone else. And we can't know. Not without further information. And if we get that? I'll be amongst the first to admit it.

**frankelee**

People who ask dishonest questions when clearly they just want to make statements they can't back up are rarely worth the time. They're never as smart as they think they are, and they're usually even far more bad faith in their arguments and actions than they already appear.

GW had to change their plans, rework documents, deliver late, scramble because of bad corporate decisions. If this FACT of REALITY causes grown men such emotional distress then that's really, really too bad for them. And I feel a great amount of pity for them as human beings.

**Not Online!!!**

Ashiraya wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But as for no legacies list intended, or an expanded one…where has that come from?

Check out the article that announced legacies on Warcom.

They had a list of what was going to be in it. The actual PDF now has a lot of stuff that isn't in the article, ranging from Arlatax to Sanguinary Guard and many more. There are also changed things from the article; for example Warcom said that the legacies PDF will restore Tartaros powerfists (they are even shown prominently on the article cover), but the Tartaros were abruptly FAQed directly into the Liber instead, with the legacies Tartaros instead being a... all-heavy-weapons squad? Because that is something specifically Tartaros needed to get but not Cataphractii? To me it seems a pretty obvious last minute repurposing of an already-announced PDF addition so that it'd do something at all after the errata release.

Edit: Hell, read the Tartaros Siege Squad PDF lore blurb. It's still talking about powerfists and chainfists, even though that's not what this unit actually is for now. Obvious last minute change.

Ouch....

Implications upon implications.

**Gert**

Lathe Biosas wrote:

But with these legacies, doesn't that restore most, if not all, of the models that people were upset about losing the ability to play with?

Consuls are all still locked loadouts, now they just have movement options so it's not really fixing the main issue there.

As for restored options like the Legion armouries, the whole problem was that the character and flair of each Legion got gutted with HH3. The fact a bunch of weapons and gear have been added back is proof that HH has been pulled into NMNR and that's a death knell for a system that prides itself on customisation in models.
Certain things are also still missing, for example Golg and Vhalen for Iron Warriors, the only Praetor level characters apart from Perturabo we had (Dreygur is a Praevian).
Being relegated to a PDF isn't a great feeling because the PDFs aren't as looked after as rulebooks are. The Legacies rules for HH2 tended to wildly swing between unholy godlike power (Tsons Ammirita(?) Occult) or useless (Baneblade).

**Dryaktylus**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
They even brought back the volcano cannon ordinatus! Good work to those unpaid interns scrambling for a week!

Yeah, now I can finally field my Sagittar after a whole edition.

Mechanicum misses some weapon options, but well... .

**The_Real_Chris**

Altruizine wrote:

The 35% discount on a brand new set was a bad look, and having that deep-discount stock sitting around in stores for a year+ would've been an even worse look. GW could not have been happy about that. Better to tractor-beam all the unwanted inventory back into the controlled GW system (where people cannot look at availability numbers) and accelerate to the point in time where stores would've been stocking 1-2 shelf boxes for walk-ins anyway.

My local got a return deal for the 6 sets of boxes and books they hadn't asked to be sent (they asked for two sets), that GW randomly allocated but have agreed to take back. I think though only for credit (which is fine given what they sell through, but its still time).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Snrub wrote:
Shrapnelsmile wrote:
How has the reception been by new players, not current, in your area?
At my local club that meets every week, absolute zero interest. No one's talking about the new edition, no one appears to care about the models.

Not any noise yet which is surprising, we have 6-8 massive heresy players (as in get out the thunderhawks to fly between all the titans) as used to have regular mass 12 foot by 6 foot multiplayer games on a semi regular basis. Stil its early days and most haven't even got their sets yet. People have taken my offer of the bits I don't need, so I am happy (need the Mk2's for a different project and want a rulebook so if I ever play it will be with my rogue trader beakies

).

**MajorWesJanson**

Altruizine wrote:

Me? I'm just trying to keep the conclusions presented in this thread sensible. We've no evidence that they had the contents of the Legacies document finalized in advance. Any claim that the PDF was fully written and completed early is pure speculation.

Who has been claiming that?

**Mozzamanx**

Credit where its due, the Legacies go much, much further than I was expecting. I am a pessimistic person at heart and was not expecting anything more than a surface-level update; the listed units and a few character options. I was not expecting them to revise Legion-specific unit wargear entries and I definitely wasn't expecting 207 pages of free content.

However, I have noticed something troubling. The Master of Signal variants note that this profile counts as a Master of Signal for the purposes of a 'Maelstrom Sentry Battery Auxiliary Detachment' which AFAIK does not exist in the base rules or the first Tactica Journals. This is a strong red flag to me that some of this content was originally packaged as Tactica content and has been stripped out early as a response to the initial backlash.

Spoiler:

**Ashiraya**

That is very curious. At a glance your read seems correct - units plucked from future journals and they forgot to remove mention of the unreleased detachment.

**Dudeface**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Altruizine wrote:

Me? I'm just trying to keep the conclusions presented in this thread sensible. We've no evidence that they had the contents of the Legacies document finalized in advance. Any claim that the PDF was fully written and completed early is pure speculation.

Who has been claiming that?

I believe some are of the opinion that it all went as planned and there have been no obvious revisions if you check the last couple of pages. Not so much that it was all bodged, but it's more a "what makes you think the reactions made them change anything" type stance.

**Ashiraya**

Dudeface wrote:
MajorWesJanson wrote:
Altruizine wrote:

Me? I'm just trying to keep the conclusions presented in this thread sensible. We've no evidence that they had the contents of the Legacies document finalized in advance. Any claim that the PDF was fully written and completed early is pure speculation.

Who has been claiming that?

I believe some are of the opinion that it all went as planned and there have been no obvious revisions if you check the last couple of pages. Not so much that it was all bodged, but it's more a "what makes you think the reactions made them change anything" type stance.

There have definitely been people calling others conspiracy theorists and sensationalists for thinking GW would react to the community outcry.

I don't think GW panic wrote the entire PDF on the spot, but you can tell signs this PDF has stuff that was added or tweaked last minute.

**Dudeface**

Ashiraya wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
MajorWesJanson wrote:
Altruizine wrote:

Me? I'm just trying to keep the conclusions presented in this thread sensible. We've no evidence that they had the contents of the Legacies document finalized in advance. Any claim that the PDF was fully written and completed early is pure speculation.

Who has been claiming that?

I believe some are of the opinion that it all went as planned and there have been no obvious revisions if you check the last couple of pages. Not so much that it was all bodged, but it's more a "what makes you think the reactions made them change anything" type stance.

There have definitely been people calling others conspiracy theorists and sensationalists for thinking GW would react to the community outcry.

I don't think GW panic wrote the entire PDF on the spot, but you can tell signs this PDF has stuff that was added or tweaked last minute.

lmao sorry, that was a half typed response I arse sent - fwiw I agree some edits happened.

**Mozzamanx**

There's definitely some dodgy bits there.
The Siege Tartaros fluff blurb going on and on about how special their melee weapons are when their most obvious trait is unlimited access to heavy guns.
Sanguinary Guard being present when they were not included in the initial list of unit entries.
As said, the Master of Signals referencing detachments that don't exist (yet).

**Ashiraya**

Mozzamanx wrote:
Sanguinary Guard being present when they were not included in the initial list of unit entries.

Arlatax too and a bunch of others. It's sus for sure.

**MajorWesJanson**

Ashiraya wrote:
Mozzamanx wrote:
Sanguinary Guard being present when they were not included in the initial list of unit entries.

Arlatax too and a bunch of others. It's sus for sure.

Some entries may have been planned as coming out alongside new kits, but pulled forwards.

**Platuan4th**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Mozzamanx wrote:
Sanguinary Guard being present when they were not included in the initial list of unit entries.

Arlatax too and a bunch of others. It's sus for sure.

Some entries may have been planned as coming out alongside new kits, but pulled forwards.

That's my thought, too. Some of the entries are very clearly stuff they plan to make in plastic(Arlatax, Carnodons) at some point and got added in so players don't have to wait for those.

**Lord Zarkov**

Ashiraya wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
MajorWesJanson wrote:
Altruizine wrote:

Me? I'm just trying to keep the conclusions presented in this thread sensible. We've no evidence that they had the contents of the Legacies document finalized in advance. Any claim that the PDF was fully written and completed early is pure speculation.

Who has been claiming that?

I believe some are of the opinion that it all went as planned and there have been no obvious revisions if you check the last couple of pages. Not so much that it was all bodged, but it's more a "what makes you think the reactions made them change anything" type stance.

There have definitely been people calling others conspiracy theorists and sensationalists for thinking GW would react to the community outcry.

I don't think GW panic wrote the entire PDF on the spot, but you can tell signs this PDF has stuff that was added or tweaked last minute.

That seems a reasonable inference - much of it already written, but some of it subject to last-minute revision/additions based on the outcry - and hence the week or so delay to effect that.

**chaos0xomega**

I went from calling folks conspiracy theorists over the legacy doc to believing the conspiracy due to the additional content that was previously unmentioned.

Time for a whine:

Veteran breachers are not a substitute for 20 man breacher squads w volkite.

No despoiler entry to let me fiekd dual bolt pistols again is a huge miss.

**SirDonlad**

The primus redoubt entry is definetly an afterthought.
Nice they got the name right but the entry lacks even basic nesessities for the model - the conundrum of what counted as model and what was tile is well known and it doesn't even mention it.
No sheild dome invuln save, no additional weapon mounts, not allowed to target infantry...

The fluff change is irritating.
As per the original unit entry "Constructed in vast numbers by armies of heavy-grade servitors under the aegis of the war-wrights of the mechanicum's macrotek order, such redoubts served to consolidate terras control over newly compliant worlds.."

Now is "Rare even at the height of the Great Crusade, Primus Redoubts are specially constructed by teams of Mechanicum thralls and Tech-Priests for specific engagements."

**Ashiraya**

Perhaps that is the reverse Saturnine Terminator syndrome. That is to say, something this time shifted to become less common in the lore when GW decided they're not looking to get it sold.

There's a bit of that in the Tartaros Siege Squad description too, asserting that most Tartaros use power weapons and that power fists are a rarer more specialised appearance - setting aside that the lore description is clearly from a prior iteration of the Siege Squad before the power fists were errata'd directly into the Libers instead, the assertion that fist Tartaros were in any way less than common is novel to me.

**SirDonlad**

Its a very english scenario to be honest - someone said "that'll do!" and it wouldn't...

**kodos**

GW changing the lore to fit the current model range is not irritating but the usual thing happening with edition changes.
Canon lore is only what is in the current army books.

**lord_blackfang**

chaos0xomega wrote:

Veteran breachers are not a substitute for 20 man breacher squads w volkite.

No despoiler entry to let me fiekd dual bolt pistols again is a huge miss.

Yea, Legacies definitely fall short of having a 1:1 rescue rate for old units, but also invent strange new things (Veteran Heavy Support Squad??) that are prime candidates to be dropped in 4.0, it's like they enjoy the drama and want to see it again in 3 years' time

Some Legion specific wargear is also problematic because they just add it to the wargear Lists in the armoury, instead of doing the "any model with X can replace it with Y" like in 2.0, so units without full armoury List access are locked out when they shouldn't be. For example Death Guard Veteran Breachers can take flamers, but not alchem flamers.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Quite like the implementation of the Medusa and Basilisk. Both RS6, but with Ordnance (RS). So when stationary, the RS is doubled.

So whilst they could be driven Willy Nilly up and down the board, they are, as is tradition, best off carefully deployed with as wide a field of fire as possible.

And so we’ve vehicles which can quite happily be mobile, and some you’re best advised to keep still. And with potentially different buffs/penalties, depending on how you choose to look at it.

**SirDonlad**

kodos wrote:
GW changing the lore to fit the current model range is not irritating but the usual thing happening with edition changes.
Canon lore is only what is in the current army books.

I am irritated by it.
Cant you handle that fact?

Your comment is contrarian, unwanted and wrong.

Who would have looked at that unit entry and concluded that everyone would have to auto-include one based on nothing but them being so cannonically common?
Do they really think that lore change will make players think "damn i was going to include one, but as they're cannonically rare ill get a core range vehicle instead"

The hallmark of third edition - "change for the sake of change, nothing more"

**chaos0xomega**

lord_blackfang wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:

Veteran breachers are not a substitute for 20 man breacher squads w volkite.

No despoiler entry to let me fiekd dual bolt pistols again is a huge miss.

Yea, Legacies definitely fall short of having a 1:1 rescue rate for old units, but also invent strange new things (Veteran Heavy Support Squad??) that are prime candidates to be dropped in 4.0, it's like they enjoy the drama and want to see it again in 3 years' time

Some Legion specific wargear is also problematic because they just add it to the wargear Lists in the armoury, instead of doing the "any model with X can replace it with Y" like in 2.0, so units without full armoury List access are locked out when they shouldn't be. For example Death Guard Veteran Breachers can take flamers, but not alchem flamers.

Yeah i was baffled by the veteran HSS entry, but I figured that it must be a holdover from 2.0 legacy or a generic fillin for a legion specific unit or something.

**Gert**

Nope, the Veteran units are new.

The optimistic me thinks it's to allow people with Firstborn to use Devastator squads without too much cutting apart but I also keep optimistic me locked in a dark cellar for a reason.