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MikeMcSomething wrote:
You posted this exact same argument in another thread and a couple of the accountant/analyst guys that post on here shot it down (you then reposted it, completely unchanged, in it's entirety, in this thread - I'll repeat - you reposted the exact same argument, without changes, in a new therad, after it was shown to be demonstrably invalid in the first place)...

I don't think I'm unique in saying I don't follow every thread I post in, indefinitely. I speak from my own experiance in managing the design, engineering, manufacture, and sale of small component parts for for consumer, industrial, and military products. Maybe I'm speaking outside of my experiance, so please link me to the thread you're talking about.

MikeMcSomething wrote:
...the gist of it was that GW's materials costs aren't all of it's costs so an increase in materials doesn't represent a 100% equivalent increase in COGS

My responses were not intended to answer "why it costs so much" but rather "why something that suppose to be a cost savings can cost more?" As I said I've taken my language a little too absolutist and awknowledge my example isn't the sole reason, just contributory and as an example of how material costs can make an impact.

MikeMcSomething wrote:
...and the profit figure you mentioned is after they shell out piles of cash to shore up their failing retail outlets which don't suddenly cost 60% more to run just because metal cost 60% more this quarter.

Yes, because profits can only be measured after you pay down liabilities... but if GW is anticipating particular costs to operate retail outlets, its part of the pricing scheme to result in the final after tax profits. You look at the last few years of financials and they're either lucky or just good at hitting a particular range.

MikeMcSomething wrote:
The person that initially completely refuted your line of argument went into it in a bit more detail, I'm just reposting the summary from what I can recall.

Until I have a chance to say otherwise to their post, all I can say is not everything you read online is correct. This is my opinion, drawn from my experiance successfully working with amounts of money greater than I own. In this world you'll always have people who disagree, but it doesn't mean they're right.

I still have two sealed boxes of Cadians from when they were 20 per box and cost...whatever they cost when they first came out. I think three such boxes came in an army deal at the time. Memories...

Kilkrazy wrote:I am a member of the forum Boardgamegeek where the discussion is mostly about board games (duh!)
A user there posted about the Finecast

I have played quite a bit of GW stuff over the last 30 years or so. Covering Warhammer, 40k, Warmaster, WHFRP, Space Hulk, etc etc etc. I remember when their stores carried all sorts of games, and I have a lot of respect for many of the things they have done. These days I have no time and so have migrated to board and wargames. BUT my nine year old son is looking at my old minis and saying. 'Cool, Dad. When can I start?'.
I popped into a GW store at the weekend and I saw a pack of five (F-I-V-E) cavalry figures in a box for sixty (S-I-X-T-Y) pounds sterling.
I thought it was a misprint.
I looked along the shelf and there was a new gimmick in store. Citadel Finecast. Resin minis at £20+ per box of ONE GUY. I struggle to think of a bigger rip off. The tragedy is that I actually like GW but this is just too much. A gamer with a soul needs to sort out their board of directors.
Goodbye GW. Hello Mantic
Very sad.

Much argument ensued about whether GW are justified or not in pricing their models so high.

Would you mind linking, I'd like to read the discussion. Interesting, that -probably without knowing the facts- the poster very appropriatly mentions the Board of directors who recently approved a dividend that essentially doubled the GW CEO's sallary!

Newbie teens are drawn in regardless of price, but it's always interesting to hear the reactions to GW of adult gamers when they discover GW's prices. A friend in my gaming group is like this. He has been gaming for near 20 years, and has a very nice miniature collection. He sees how much of his hobby budget would be eaten up, and just has never been able to see the point of getting into GW.

Raptor wrote:The positive press is in. Nothing too interesting or hyperbolic, though.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16800017a

The only bit there that interested me was the aside to say that the Tomb Kings book has been translated into Japanese.....

Not that I speak/read/understand the language, but it seemed kinda cool.

BrassScorpion wrote:Interestingly, the total number of items in the product line that went up in price this year is less than last year if I recall correctly.

Might this have something to do with the number of metal lines which have been pulled, and are awaiting a Finecast rerelease? Might that number increase as future waves arrive?

Eilif wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I am a member of the forum Boardgamegeek where the discussion is mostly about board games (duh!)
A user there posted about the Finecast

...

I popped into a GW store at the weekend and I saw a pack of five (F-I-V-E) cavalry figures in a box for sixty (S-I-X-T-Y) pounds sterling.
I thought it was a misprint.
I looked along the shelf and there was a new gimmick in store. Citadel Finecast. Resin minis at £20+ per box of ONE GUY. I struggle to think of a bigger rip off. The tragedy is that I actually like GW but this is just too much. A gamer with a soul needs to sort out their board of directors.
Goodbye GW. Hello Mantic
Very sad.

Much argument ensued about whether GW are justified or not in pricing their models so high.

Would you mind linking, I'd like to read the discussion. Interesting, that -probably without knowing the facts- the poster very appropriatly mentions the Board of directors who recently approved a dividend that essentially doubled the GW CEO's sallary!

Newbie teens are drawn in regardless of price, but it's always interesting to hear the reactions to GW of adult gamers when they discover GW's prices. A friend in my gaming group is like this. He has been gaming for near 20 years, and has a very nice miniature collection. He sees how much of his hobby budget would be eaten up, and just has never been able to see the point of getting into GW.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/658174/games-workshop-game-over

it was the sticker price shock that floored the poster. It kind of floored me too, when I went into GW yesterday to take a look. I knew intellectually that a single Zoanthrope had been increased to £15.50, but the reality hit me when I picked up a blister and thought how much it would cost to build my Tyranid army now. No-one buys a model like a Zoanthrope for a display piece. You buy them because they are one of the two decent anti-tank units in the Tyranid codex. (The other one, Hive Guards, are also £15.50 each.)

The positive press is in. Nothing too interesting or hyperbolic, though.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16800017a

Strange how Australia gets mentioned three times

This customer, known only as Konrad, came into the store in Ringwood, Australia, raised his knives above his head (that's not a knife, this is a knife), and demanded that the staff make Konrad von Carstein in Citadel Finecast. Well, hold onto your Fellbats because you never know, one day we might do just that.

No, you really don't want that Konrad. Floppy swords could be used as a derogatory metaphor by some unscrupulous folk

Man, Aus must be a different place.
How quickly do you think the police would be onsite if a kid came into a US store waving knives above his head?

warspawned wrote:

The positive press is in. Nothing too interesting or hyperbolic, though.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16800017a

Strange how Australia gets mentioned three times

...

It depends if you regard GW website content as news reports or advertising.

Schmapdi wrote:

Raptor wrote:The positive press is in. Nothing too interesting or hyperbolic, though.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16800017a

I like to think that the Aussie pic is of them storming the GW to claim the head of the manager in protest for the Embargo policy, and GW just added the caption of "look how much they want Finecast."

Oh, and for the japan picture the guy on the far right looks like hes about to punch it. Look how happy these people in japan with there overpriced miniatures look!, says GW

Depends on the FLGS. I've seen one of our "local" arms importers once bring in a WWII G43(?) he had just scored. He asked permission first of course. "Maine, the way life should be!"

warspawned wrote:

The positive press is in. Nothing too interesting or hyperbolic, though.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16800017a

Strange how Australia gets mentioned three times

Wow. You're right. 'Hey, look! Australians totally love Games Workshop! They completely appreciate their higher prices, since they make so much more than everyone else! In fact, they've started giving us money! So we'll have to increase our prices again so we can send more models to Australia!'

lol, the Australia to England comparison in the first two photos. Crazy uncivilized Aussies next to the civilized, gentlemanlike Englishmen.

There's another great review on Finecast here

http://blip.tv/watching-paint-dry/citadel-finecast-review-5214720

This guy bought Marneus Calgar and Honor Guard. While some people (myself included) are worried about the quality of a single miniature, this guy's box turned out to be great, and I intend to pick up some Finecast Bolt Throwers for my Dark Elves.

Cryonicleech wrote:There's another great review on Finecast here

http://blip.tv/watching-paint-dry/citadel-finecast-review-5214720

This guy bought Marneus Calgar and Honor Guard. While some people (myself included) are worried about the quality of a single miniature, this guy's box turned out to be great, and I intend to pick up some Finecast Bolt Throwers for my Dark Elves.

Compare and contrast to the MC and HG set I got here: http://s1100.photobucket.com/albums/g401/alendrel/Finecast/

I live down in Texas where it gets pretty hot, so I put some of the sprue in my car in the sun for a test.




(Obviously the thermometer is in degrees Fahrenheit.)

There is a small sag under the weight, but when hung vertically it returned to normal shape. I also experimented with heating and bending a piece of sprue in hot water. You can bend and cool it to maintain a bent shape, but heating it up in hot water brings it back almost to the original shape.

Like someone mentioned earlier, I did notice that the sprue piece flexibility seems to depend on the thickness of the piece in question. When I was bending the sprue on the short cross-section, it could bend back on itself. When I bent it across the thick cross-section it snapped under much less of an angle.

Posted this elsewhere, but feel it can be posted here as well.

"Ah, damage control, with all the hype to have all of these issues so early on to have to fix is embarrassment. The fact remains that GW did make this a hyped product as it was the greatest thing since electricity. What is good is that they want the defective models sent back for revision and to make sure that QC stops such poor examples from going out again. This tells us that GW is embarrassed about it, and is seeking to do something about it, especially at those prices. For the amount of money their FW division charges fro vehicles, to have all that work to do to clean and fix resin bitz is crazy, for that amount one would expect the models to be cleaned and sanded down, smaller companies like Old Crow sell cheaper, and do all that clean up work for you, If I can get a tank for 35USD all cleaned and deburred and such, why can't I get such a job done from FW for the 100+ they charge a tank? these Finecasts on sprues, well, I look at that as added protection from sliding around.

BTW, if the Grotesues were plastics, they'd still charge you 20bucks! GW thinks of themselves as the Porsche of the gaming industry, I say they are more Ford/Lincoln/Mercury other companies make superior minis to what GW makes, and others make at least to lower quality but solid minis I think that if GW had some true competition out there, then they might feel the challenge to be better at what they do for the prices they charge for what they deliver. "

Alendrel wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:There's another great review on Finecast here

http://blip.tv/watching-paint-dry/citadel-finecast-review-5214720

This guy bought Marneus Calgar and Honor Guard. While some people (myself included) are worried about the quality of a single miniature, this guy's box turned out to be great, and I intend to pick up some Finecast Bolt Throwers for my Dark Elves.

Compare and contrast to the MC and HG set I got here: http://s1100.photobucket.com/albums/g401/alendrel/Finecast/

Ach, sorry to see that man. The faceplate on that Standard Bearer is atrocious, to say the least.

Miscasts do happen, and I'm sure if you sent piccies to GW you may be able to work something out. Still, goes to show that Finecast is far from perfect.

realgenius wrote:Like someone mentioned earlier, I did notice that the sprue piece flexibility seems to depend on the thickness of the piece in question. When I was bending the sprue on the short cross-section, it could bend back on itself. When I bent it across the thick cross-section it snapped under much less of an angle.

Mechanical Engineering 101

ph34r wrote:

realgenius wrote:Like someone mentioned earlier, I did notice that the sprue piece flexibility seems to depend on the thickness of the piece in question. When I was bending the sprue on the short cross-section, it could bend back on itself. When I bent it across the thick cross-section it snapped under much less of an angle.

Mechanical Engineering 101

On the perpendicular sprue piece I noticed the opposite was true, so it doesn't always seem to be dependent on the dimensions of the piece. I've always thought of resin as fairly homogeneous but it almost seems like it has a "grain"; bend with the grain and you're ok, but bend against and it snaps easily.

"Grain" in plastic really doesn't matter. In wood, yes. Plastic, not so much.

shasolenzabi wrote:
BTW, if the Grotesues were plastics, they'd still charge you 20bucks! GW thinks of themselves as the Porsche of the gaming industry, I say they are more Ford/Lincoln/Mercury other companies make superior minis to what GW makes, and others make at least to lower quality but solid minis I think that if GW had some true competition out there, then they might feel the challenge to be better at what they do for the prices they charge for what they deliver. "

Nah they would of put them them in packs of 3 and sold em for £30+ like the nid warriors + raveners

Kilkrazy wrote:I am a member of the forum Boardgamegeek where the discussion is mostly about board games (duh!)

A user there posted about the Finecast

I have played quite a bit of GW stuff over the last 30 years or so. Covering Warhammer, 40k, Warmaster, WHFRP, Space Hulk, etc etc etc. I remember when their stores carried all sorts of games, and I have a lot of respect for many of the things they have done. These days I have no time and so have migrated to board and wargames. BUT my nine year old son is looking at my old minis and saying. 'Cool, Dad. When can I start?'.

I popped into a GW store at the weekend and I saw a pack of five (F-I-V-E) cavalry figures in a box for sixty (S-I-X-T-Y) pounds sterling.

I thought it was a misprint.

I looked along the shelf and there was a new gimmick in store. Citadel Finecast. Resin minis at £20+ per box of ONE GUY. I struggle to think of a bigger rip off. The tragedy is that I actually like GW but this is just too much. A gamer with a soul needs to sort out their board of directors.

Goodbye GW. Hello Mantic

Very sad.

Much argument ensued about whether GW are justified or not in pricing their models so high.

However that is irrelevant to people who have been priced out.

Don't get me wrong, that does suck for people, especially if they are wanting to introduce their kids to a new hobby and the amazing universe GW has created.

However, no one will bemoan, say Lexus, because I am priced out of the GS 460. There are always other, more reasonably priced cars to purchase. Just as their are lower priced models available, although usually of lesser quality. The difference for most people, is that they already own armies, yet they want the newer models, but they don't actually need them.

Now to continue the car metaphor, they do require maintenance occasionally, i.e. new codexes, rulebooks, etc. But just as people can keep driving their older car, they can keep playing with their existing armies. They are not entitled to barebones prices on new releases, just as people aren't entitled to brand new cars for low costs, just because they are a previous customer of the company. GW is not unique in that regard to any other large corporation. The fact that they produce a product that people feel passionately about, does not entitle their fans to special treatment. The consumer ultimately has the choice whether or nor to support a company. If they are not happy with the cost or quality of the product, they are always free to take their business elsewhere.

Now to continue the car metaphor, they do require maintenance occasionally, i.e. new codexes, rulebooks, etc. But just as people can keep driving their older car, they can keep playing with their existing armies. They are not entitled to barebones prices on new releases, just as people aren't entitled to brand new cars for low costs, just because they are a previous customer of the company. GW is not unique in that regard to any other large corporation. The fact that they produce a product that people feel passionately about, does not entitle their fans to special treatment. The consumer ultimately has the choice whether or nor to support a company. If they are not happy with the cost or quality of the product, they are always free to take their business elsewhere.

As much as I cringe at a $66 Land Raider or a deformed resin $22 Abaddon, I basically agree with this. A product is "worth" exactly what someone is willing to pay for it, and we're willing to pay for it. A company can largely run its business model how it wants if it has enough loyal and/or new customers to keep the lights on and the metal/plastic/resin flowing. And we, if anything, are loyal. Can't very well get Tyranids and Dark Angels and Space Orks anywhere else.

Cadaver wrote:

Now to continue the car metaphor, they do require maintenance occasionally, i.e. new codexes, rulebooks, etc. But just as people can keep driving their older car, they can keep playing with their existing armies. They are not entitled to barebones prices on new releases, just as people aren't entitled to brand new cars for low costs, just because they are a previous customer of the company. GW is not unique in that regard to any other large corporation. The fact that they produce a product that people feel passionately about, does not entitle their fans to special treatment. The consumer ultimately has the choice whether or nor to support a company. If they are not happy with the cost or quality of the product, they are always free to take their business elsewhere.

Although the sad thing is that the chances are a lot of youngsters who might have say just been intrigued by a WD picked up from a news stand, or recognised a space marine from one of the computer games, will walk into GW (perhaps with their parents), look at the prices, and turn around and will never become a hobbyist as a result. There is just not the low budget option there any more, the tie-in MB games, or the Specialist games (the different types of games that would appeal beyond masses of soldiers ranked up on a GW gameboard), to help pull people in through the door and give them a chance to survive on pocket money as so many of us on this board would have done as children.

Admittedly it's now up to the other manufacturers to increase their presence and help pull people into wargaming (arguably PP have almost made that step, especially in the U.S. where there are a lot more independents), but I can't help but feel that, using your car sales analogy, there is a bog-standard Ford sat with no options in the showroom window, with a price tag 200% higher than it should be, obstructing the far snazzier, and more reasonably priced alternatives which are only just visible in the background. Customers walking past take one look in through the window, realise they don't have the money to take up driving, and just walk on.

The hobby needs fresh blood - GW have been instrumental in increasing the popularity of wargaming over the years, I will be the first to admit that the experience of walking into a store as a child was a magical one. But times have changed, since the company went public their thirst to maintain profit margins for the shareholders, and I think a complete departure from reality in what they can expect their customers to pay (regardless of what new label is put on the products) means that they will be operating in ever tightening circles.

Pacific wrote:Although the sad thing is that the chances are a lot of youngsters who might have say just been intrigued by a WD picked up from a news stand, or recognised a space marine from one of the computer games, will walk into GW (perhaps with their parents), look at the prices, and turn around and will never become a hobbyist as a result. There is just not the low budget option there any more, the tie-in MB games, or the Specialist games (the different types of games that would appeal beyond masses of soldiers ranked up on a GW gameboard), to help pull people in through the door and give them a chance to survive on pocket money as so many of us on this board would have done as children.

Admittedly it's now up to the other manufacturers to increase their presence and help pull people into wargaming (arguably PP have almost made that step, especially in the U.S. where there are a lot more independents), but I can't help but feel that, using your car sales analogy, there is a bog-standard Ford sat with no options in the showroom window, with a price tag 200% higher than it should be, obstructing the far snazzier, and more reasonably priced alternatives which are only just visible in the background. Customers walking past take one look in through the window, realise they don't have the money to take up driving, and just walk on.

The hobby needs fresh blood - GW have been instrumental in increasing the popularity of wargaming over the years, I will be the first to admit that the experience of walking into a store as a child was a magical one. But times have changed, since the company went public their thirst to maintain profit margins for the shareholders, and I think a complete departure from reality in what they can expect their customers to pay (regardless of what new label is put on the products) means that they will be operating in ever tightening circles.

This is a great point. I distinctly remember flipping through a White Dwarf in the late 80's and thinking a horde of plastic beakie Space Wolves was the coolest thing I had ever seen. Nothing in the hobby has ever been as cool as that period for me, in the game store, during the transition form RT to 2nd Ed. I remember miniatures felt like the logical progression from action figures and other "boy toys," more mature and artful but attainable in terms of the cost and skill. I wonder what a ten-twelve year old kid would think now looking at the models and their prices. (And the skill required for some of the bigger models.) Just getting a troop of thirty space marines is a different venture than in those days.

Maybe some other companies need to focus on developing new, affordable lines with expansive, rapidly-buildable armies of moderate quality. Or something like the MB tie-ins mentioned above, with tons of cool but relatively monopose warriors.

Cadaver wrote:
Now to continue the car metaphor, they do require maintenance occasionally, i.e. new codexes, rulebooks, etc. But just as people can keep driving their older car, they can keep playing with their existing armies. They are not entitled to barebones prices on new releases, just as people aren't entitled to brand new cars for low costs, just because they are a previous customer of the company. GW is not unique in that regard to any other large corporation. The fact that they produce a product that people feel passionately about, does not entitle their fans to special treatment. The consumer ultimately has the choice whether or nor to support a company. If they are not happy with the cost or quality of the product, they are always free to take their business elsewhere.

With all due respect, I think that misrepresents the issue. I would compare the issue to maintaining a fancy car. It needs new parts and continuous maintenance to keep it functioning and road-legal, which we can compare to new codices and models to keep an army legal and competitive. If you buy a car, invest a lot of money in it, and then are priced out of maintaining it, wouldn't that upset you?

Pacific wrote: Although the sad thing is that the chances are a lot of youngsters who might have say just been intrigued by a WD picked up from a news stand, or recognised a space marine from one of the computer games, will walk into GW (perhaps with their parents), look at the prices, and turn around and will never become a hobbyist as a result. There is just not the low budget option there any more, the tie-in MB games, or the Specialist games (the different types of games that would appeal beyond masses of soldiers ranked up on a GW gameboard), to help pull people in through the door and give them a chance to survive on pocket money as so many of us on this board would have done as children.

Admittedly it's now up to the other manufacturers to increase their presence and help pull people into wargaming (arguably PP have almost made that step, especially in the U.S. where there are a lot more independents), but I can't help but feel that, using your car sales analogy, there is a bog-standard Ford sat with no options in the showroom window, with a price tag 200% higher than it should be, obstructing the far snazzier, and more reasonably priced alternatives which are only just visible in the background. Customers walking past take one look in through the window, realise they don't have the money to take up driving, and just walk on.

The hobby needs fresh blood - GW have been instrumental in increasing the popularity of wargaming over the years, I will be the first to admit that the experience of walking into a store as a child was a magical one. But times have changed, since the company went public their thirst to maintain profit margins for the shareholders, and I think a complete departure from reality in what they can expect their customers to pay (regardless of what new label is put on the products) means that they will be operating in ever tightening circles.

I definitely agree Specialists Games should be a bigger focus. It allows people to get into the hobby without investing hundreds of dollars, let alone the time involved in painting larger armies. I exclusively play SGs these days, since the level of commitment I have allows me enough time to play smaller, quicker games I can get in on a weeknight with friends. I really hope there is either an option alternate rules set in 6th edition, like Kill Team was (although hopefully slightly more expansive) or alternatively, an expansion, which allows for smaller, yet balanced games using a variation of the core rules. I'm not optimistic, but a version of 40k that is in more direct competition with WarmaHordes would be great. I'd honestly have given Privateer Press a go if I could get over the look of their miniatures.

Guildsman wrote:
With all due respect, I think that misrepresents the issue. I would compare the issue to maintaining a fancy car. It needs new parts and continuous maintenance to keep it functioning and road-legal, which we can compare to new codices and models to keep an army legal and competitive. If you buy a car, invest a lot of money in it, and then are priced out of maintaining it, wouldn't that upset you?

I wouldn't say it's continuous maintenance, though. You're talking about a codex maybe every 3-4 years and a new rulebook maybe every 4-5 years. Keeping an army legal if you have an existing army is not hard. Most units don't bounce around FOC charts that often. Keeping an army competitive is another story, and also totally irrelevant, in my opinion. Playing the game or an army because you like the game and your army of choice is one thing, but keeping up with the tournament-minded meta game bloggers online is another. I don't think GW has any obligation to keep prices low for competitive play, and in fact they seem to do the opposite. The tournament crowd can win plenty of free stuff in prize support, even at the local level, so I don't empathize with that crowd having to buy newer models to stay at the top of the tournament crowd.

DAWARBOSS wrote: Look how happy these people in japan with there overpriced miniatures look!, says GW

It was later reported the person was suffering from Cerebral Aneurysm due to shock from unknown cause.

I suspect the the only Finecast I will be purchasing will be Plague Marines.. any miscasts will be easy to pass off as "disease" or "old pitted armor 10k years in use"..

But.. I also echo the "must see it in person to buy it"..

LunaHound wrote:

DAWARBOSS wrote: Look how happy these people in japan with there overpriced miniatures look!, says GW

It was later reported the person was suffering from Cerebral Aneurysm due to shock from unknown cause.

The first time LunaHound's got me to laugh