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Schek, thanks for the objective review of the wracks. I like the idea of the delicate eldar parts actually looking like *delicate* eldar parts.

Can't argue with your thoughts on the pricing either. The figs are getting in the "stupid" per mini price range for having large numbers of them on the table. I don't mind paying a little more for a few Foundry showpiece figures for my armies, but don't like the idea of completely building an army out of them. Just way too expensive anymore. Since the finecast shift and latest price increase I have priced out the Tyranids that I'd like to buy for a new army and the prices are starting to get into the "not sure I feel like spending that much when I already have multiple armies" category. The Dark Eldar I've looked at are not quite as bad as the tyranids, but then again there aren't as many "big" models in the dark eldar list I put together either. Maybe I need to tone down my wants.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pacific wrote:
I think that the next few years will be very interesting in terms of how the hobby develops. Like you said there are several other games which are constantly growing in popularity, and are seeming to make the most of GW's poor decision making. Ultimately it may be good for the long term health of wargaming, you could argue that the monolithic entity that is GW has got lazy after being sat on the top of the pile, and some healthy competition might see them produce a better quality product for their customers in the future.

Have to agree with GW getting lazy at the top of the pile for so long. Competition is definitely a good thing in the market. Of course there are no guarantees that GW *will* make the right decisions as their competition gets a bit stronger so could end up on the short end of things when the time comes. I'd like to hope that they would adapt and work to improve, though. Only time will tell and given how often my group still plays the original Necromunda and the 2nd edition of Space Marine I sure we'll survive if GW goes under. We just won't be adding new armies anymore, except to buy the old armies of those people who seem to think as soon as the company stops functioning their minis and rules suddenly become unusable. Heehee...

Skriker

Well, if you buy a finecast and paint it at a more than "tabletop standard" you shouldn´t break your weekly/monthly hobby budget eh - time is the factor here and it takes some, to paint your finecast on a high standard.
I sunk a middle class car just in my fantasy miniatures, sounds pretty much but if you know I collect the stuff for more than 10years it´s not so much anymore. IMHO there´s no need to sink hundreds of bucks into two "resin squads" a month. Buy a piece, paint it and buy the next if you cant/wont/whatever dont do it - easy as that. At the end of the day, Warhammer is a expensive hobby but as long as it´s satisfying there is no problem with it I say.
Maybe it´s easy to speak so because I already have three fantasy and three 40k armies - TK cant be called a real army atm but anyway - newcomers may have to pay a lot more at the first place to get started. But back in the days when I had my first games I´ve spend a ton of money to get started and there was no small skirmish games nor a store or so nearby. We played with together at a friends place and it was a mess to get started with the hobby. Nowadays I feel pretty comfortable because I can pick some pieces here and there to round my armies up or just break the 4k point limit without fielding every model I have. In the end you just shouldn´t start with expensive finecast or just big minis. Go get yourself the smallest possible army size, pick some proxy stuff up, get started and build your army up. I think the major problem is that many players want to start with 2k + points, have a cool army and than realize it will cost them a heap-load of money. I mean you wont start with a tony hawks sigged skateboard if you just got your first step into a half pipe.

Last but not least, dont buy the first wave. Usually the first sale isnt that great, not just finecast. It was the same with every electronic thingy from television to flatscreens. Just wait for the second or maybe even third wave and be happy with better to good quality.

edit: hmm, sounds a little like a bragging post. Isnt meant as one.

Gorbad wrote:Well, if you buy a finecast and paint it at a more than "tabletop standard" you shouldn´t break your weekly/monthly hobby budget eh - time is the factor here and it takes some, to paint your finecast on a high standard.
I sunk a middle class car just in my fantasy miniatures, sounds pretty much but if you know I collect the stuff for more than 10years it´s not so much anymore. IMHO there´s no need to sink hundreds of bucks into two "resin squads" a month. Buy a piece, paint it and buy the next if you cant/wont/whatever dont do it - easy as that. At the end of the day, Warhammer is a expensive hobby but as long as it´s satisfying there is no problem with it I say.
Maybe it´s easy to speak so because I already have three fantasy and three 40k armies - TK cant be called a real army atm but anyway - newcomers may have to pay a lot more at the first place to get started. But back in the days when I had my first games I´ve spend a ton of money to get started and there was no small skirmish games nor a store or so nearby. We played with together at a friends place and it was a mess to get started with the hobby. Nowadays I feel pretty comfortable because I can pick some pieces here and there to round my armies up or just break the 4k point limit without fielding every model I have. In the end you just shouldn´t start with expensive finecast or just big minis. Go get yourself the smallest possible army size, pick some proxy stuff up, get started and build your army up. I think the major problem is that many players want to start with 2k + points, have a cool army and than realize it will cost them a heap-load of money. I mean you wont start with a tony hawks sigged skateboard if you just got your first step into a half pipe.

Last but not least, dont buy the first wave. Usually the first sale isnt that great, not just finecast. It was the same with every electronic thingy from television to flatscreens. Just wait for the second or maybe even third wave and be happy with better to good quality.

edit: hmm, sounds a little like a bragging post. Isnt meant as one.

The problem is that it isn't really possible for new players to avoid Finecast. If I'm a new player and decide to start with Dark Eldar, all of my HQ choices are Finecast, along with the coolest Elite choices. Tyranids have it even worse. What to do then? Are those armies only for advanced players? And what if one of a new player's first experiences with wargaming is Finecast, with all its myriad issues? I know I would have been turned off of GW minis, and maybe the hobby as a whole if one of my first models was as troublesome as a Finceast fig can be.

Guildsman wrote:Tyranids have it even worse. What to do then? Are those armies only for advanced players? And what if one of a new player's first experiences with wargaming is Finecast, with all its myriad issues?

Tyranids hardly 'got it worse' with Finecast. Their models got a few dollars more expensive and a hell of a lot easier to put together. You think a new person is going to know to weight the base of a Zoanthrope? Or heavily pin and use 2 part epoxy to anchor the arms on Venomthropes and Hive Guard? In Australia, they went up $4au. I bought a Zoanthrope, the only casting issues were a tiny air bubble on the head and a tiny air bubble beneath a claw. I had it cleaned and built in about 10 minutes with just super glue. I really can't see how that's getting it worse.I gladly pay the $4au more to not have them tip over on a grain of flock, or have Venomthrope and Hive Guard arms need so much work to get them to stay in place.

The hive tyrant became expensive, I admit. However, most people never buy it more than once. As for the 'myriad issues', I really don't see it. The occasional model has casting issues, which GW will take back readily and replace. I mean, metal had casting issues as well. The most annoying part was the non Finecast stuff getting more expensive. All the troops jumped a price bracket.

Just got Dante

• first look no real miscasts.
• when opened it had a huge mold line
• spent over an hour trying to file down the mold line (the model seemed to be shifted 1mm out of place. After alot of fileling it was ok.
• got and easy to build but definatly harder work then some of my other models, however, the great knight are kinda new so the masters are probably very new and good compared with Dante.

Other than the time issue fine cast is good.

Marthike wrote:Just got Dante

• first look no real miscasts.
• when opened it had a huge mold line
• spent over an hour trying to file down the mold line (the model seemed to be shifted 1mm out of place. After alot of fileling it was ok.
• got and easy to build but definatly harder work then some of my other models, however, the great knight are kinda new so the masters are probably very new and good compared with Dante.

Other than the time issue fine cast is good.

Dude, you really shouldn't have to do that. That amount of mould slip is just WRONG. Be interesting to see pics of your fix though.

Guildsman wrote:

Gorbad wrote:Well, if you buy a finecast and paint it at a more than "tabletop standard" you shouldn´t break your weekly/monthly hobby budget eh - time is the factor here and it takes some, to paint your finecast on a high standard.
I sunk a middle class car just in my fantasy miniatures, sounds pretty much but if you know I collect the stuff for more than 10years it´s not so much anymore. IMHO there´s no need to sink hundreds of bucks into two "resin squads" a month. Buy a piece, paint it and buy the next if you cant/wont/whatever dont do it - easy as that. At the end of the day, Warhammer is a expensive hobby but as long as it´s satisfying there is no problem with it I say.
Maybe it´s easy to speak so because I already have three fantasy and three 40k armies - TK cant be called a real army atm but anyway - newcomers may have to pay a lot more at the first place to get started. But back in the days when I had my first games I´ve spend a ton of money to get started and there was no small skirmish games nor a store or so nearby. We played with together at a friends place and it was a mess to get started with the hobby. Nowadays I feel pretty comfortable because I can pick some pieces here and there to round my armies up or just break the 4k point limit without fielding every model I have. In the end you just shouldn´t start with expensive finecast or just big minis. Go get yourself the smallest possible army size, pick some proxy stuff up, get started and build your army up. I think the major problem is that many players want to start with 2k + points, have a cool army and than realize it will cost them a heap-load of money. I mean you wont start with a tony hawks sigged skateboard if you just got your first step into a half pipe.

Last but not least, dont buy the first wave. Usually the first sale isnt that great, not just finecast. It was the same with every electronic thingy from television to flatscreens. Just wait for the second or maybe even third wave and be happy with better to good quality.

edit: hmm, sounds a little like a bragging post. Isnt meant as one.

The problem is that it isn't really possible for new players to avoid Finecast. If I'm a new player and decide to start with Dark Eldar, all of my HQ choices are Finecast, along with the coolest Elite choices. Tyranids have it even worse. What to do then? Are those armies only for advanced players? And what if one of a new player's first experiences with wargaming is Finecast, with all its myriad issues? I know I would have been turned off of GW minis, and maybe the hobby as a whole if one of my first models was as troublesome as a Finceast fig can be.

Well, if your HQ´s are completely from the finecast range you may just buy one HQ a time? I dont think you really need more than one HQ choice to start with. Another point would be to start with a starterbox or may just dont buy the army at all. Starting with nids is not the best choice for a starter IMHO because you have to glueand paint tons of models except you´re goin a nidzilla army.
I started with whf Empire back in the 98´s and I wouldn´t do it again! It´s pretty frustrating to start with an army that needs ton of models to glue and paint instead of getting a small starter set. Sure, having just finecast for elite/hq can get very expensive but as said, you just dont need as many models to start with. If everything fails get some old stuff from ebay. So I see no real point for the "you have to get finecast" as a new player. Ebay, proxy models or using a "count as" GW model to be able to play in GW stores should be possible for everyone.

I really like the way GW goes even if I´m far away from beeing a Rockefeller. I still remember the old days where I was young and had to use several "count as" minis for my Empire army and later on for my o&g army. No offense meant, but I sometimes get the feeling nowaday players are a little lazy and want to buy ready to play cheap and cool looking minis. Just compare 2nd/3rd edition minis to the new ones. We played with really clumsy/clowny looking minis and were happy to have sth to play with - they had/have their own charm though. Again, I wont say "we" were the better/whatever players but may - as others said - just enjoy the hobby as a whole, put some time in modeling/painting your stuff and enjoy playing instead of complaining so much. This isnt meant to you in personal, just had to throw it out.

Guys one thing that most people aren't willing to admit is that many finecast models are actually good quality, and although the price rise is really annoying they are actually very nice. BTW I am not just repeating random GW stuff, I have got approx 10 Finecast Figures (mostly presents) and I have only ran into (minor) problems with one kit. Stop getting annoyed about one aspect of the hobby , and just enjoy them when you can

I bought the Vampire bint last week. No bubbles to speak of, no miscasts, mold lines not too bad, very little flash, sword is a bit bent (going to try the hair dryer tecnique this evening).

All in all, no real complaints.

Sheck2 wrote:

- Are they worth $6.6 a model?

Humm...yes I think so. As a unit of 5-10...no problem.

Price justification for the newer, fancier models is easier as they are by fairly well detailed and intricate compared to older models. Those I could justify buying. Older models that they made into Finecast and then price hiked are a bit harder to swallow in terms of purchasing.

Sheck2 wrote:Picked up a box of Wracks today. Opened and examined the box in the store (being cautious based on everything I have read). Then took home.

Summary:
* Did not find any defects.
* Will have LOTS of clean-up much more than metal i.e. metal usually has a few tags...these sprues have them eveywhere...prep time has increased by 10x.
* Each wrack is a different sprue BTW.
* The special wpns sprue comes five (5) items - liquifier gun, agonizer/electro whip, hexrifle, stinger pistol, mindphase/flesh gauntlet.
* Delicate parts seem proportionally delicate rather than over-sized. That's a good thing.
* Highly convertable - resin is easy to cut and mod.
* Models 'seem' more detailed and crisper.
* They are FW quality or better (except much more model prep)
* At $33, I feel 'OK' buying them
* Like the set, would recommend

- Are they worth $6.6 a model?

Humm...yes I think so. As a unit of 5-10...no problem. But too expensive for more than one squad; quality, detail, etc. withstanding.

IMO - Finecast gives me the same feeling I have buying FW. As a special, small quantity model - awesome. Too expensive for high quantities.

I Really want to get a couple boxes of Wracks to Counts As a unit in Warmachine whose figs are irremediably bad. From the Finecast stuff I've seen at the FLGS, admittedly most of it thru the blisters and not in hand, I think the one thing left dissuading me is just the worry about them melting. Really wish someone would do a good study on what actual temps it takes to mess with these.

AvatarForm;259964 wrote:I was given my first Finecast mini on Saturday, the Dark Eldar Succubus:



It took over an hour of cleaning up the very annoying mould lines and for this reason Im not sold on the resin already.

It isnt terrible, but the right shoe had bubbles on the back and inside ankle. Bubbles are also present on the right arm; on some of the skulls on the trophy rack; and in other less-noticable areas. Im just glad these are easily apparent and not over important details. I would enjoy anyone PMing me how to fill these easily, as I think they are too small for GSing.

This is also a very brittle resin. Not as brittle as some, but the flexing does not prevent tears which lead to breakages, as I discovered with the tassle on the spear.

Im not hating them, but I do not see this as the revolution GW are pretending it is...

*Pics to come

Gorbad wrote:Last but not least, dont buy the first wave. Usually the first sale isnt that great, not just finecast. It was the same with every electronic thingy from television to flatscreens. Just wait for the second or maybe even third wave and be happy with better to good quality.

On the other hand, due to mold degradation, the first castings of a fresh mold tend to be the best...

Woot woot! 60 pages allready!

Gorbad wrote:I really like the way GW goes even if I´m far away from beeing a Rockefeller.

For me I look back to when I first started collecting and you could get 3-5 figures in a blister for troops (depending on whether they were chaos warriors, elves or skaven) and the prices were much lower. Today you don't get as many in a blister and prices are much higher, but my own income is so dramatically more significant that it was when I started collecting citadel minis, that I can still easily buy way more than I ever could when they were cheaper.

Skriker

Well, I just had my first experience with finecast, I helped assemble my friend's finecast hive tyrant. The only problem I saw was a few bubbles on the torso and some mold lines, and they were all pretty minor and easy to fix. Overall, my friend and I were both happy with the quality of the miniature.

Second Finecast model, another Zoanthrope.

I was a bit hesitant, it was the last Zoanthrope on the rack (actually, that and a single Broodlord were the only Tyranids on the rack, so I guess the Tyranid finecast stuff is popular). I checked it out in the pack, and it looked good.

Got home, unpacked it, and checked the peices over. More flash than the previous Zoanthrope, (looking like the amount of flash on the Draigo that initially popped up). Nothing that can't be cleaned with a knife. Checked for miscasts and airbubbles, all I found was two tiny airbubbles in the head carapace, like the previous Zoanthrope which had one there as well.

Still impressed. The new material clips off the frame easily (in fact, using clippers, you barely even have to exert any force), is easy to clean with a knife, and sticks well with just superglue. Airbubbles are comletely minor for me so far. At least for Tyranid elites, finecast is a fething blessing.

Interesting stuff from Wayland this morning:

Wayland Games wrote:Citadel Finecast: It is with regret that in the next 10 days all presently outstanding purchases of Citadel Finecast items will be refunded. Unfortunately, a randomly sampled assessment has revealed what we feel to be an excessive level of actual and potential flaws that, if reflected across our entire stock of Finecast, could result in unacceptable inconvenience to our customers. We have reached this decision as soon as was practicably possible but extend our apologies to all customers who are affected. Although we will be returning our present stockholding to the manufacturer, please be assured that we remain committed to carrying the Finecast line and will be restocking in due course. Additional information is available from our website at http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/games-workshop/finecast-resin-models/cat_955.html

More info here:

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/games-workshop/finecast-resin-models/cat_955.html

Wayland website wrote:We regret that we are not presently retailing the Citadel Finecast range.

Unfortunately, a randomly sampled assessment revealed what we feel to be an excessive level of actual and potential flaws that, if reflected across our entire stock of Finecast, could have resulted in unacceptable inconvenience to our customers. Although we will be returning our present stockholding to the manufacturer, please be assured that we remain committed to carrying the Finecast line and will be restocking in due course.

For your information, we sampled and then assessed 60 sealed blisters with 30 taken at random from each of two deliveries of stock. Failures were 17 (57%) of 30 and 16 (53%) of 30, making 33 (55%) of 60 in total. While failure doesn’t necessarily denote the blister content as being of less than merchantable quality, for our purposes it does categorise it as having a visible flaw that might be of sufficient concern to a customer such that the item might be returned. Details and images were provided to the manufacturer, with redacted copies of the images appearing below.

Please note, the blisters remain sealed and so images were taken through the product packaging.

So much for it just being a vocal minority. This is a hell of a bold move from Wayland, and it really builds my respect for them.

Will be interesting to see if any other traders have the bottle to do the same as Wayland... Well done to them for standing up to GW.

Mick

Starting to wonder if this change to resin really will save GW money.

With metal you you recylce bad quality minis. Now, with resin it cant be remade can it?

Sorry, really weird, time delayed, double post...

Mick

filbert wrote:Interesting stuff from Wayland this morning:

Wayland Games wrote:Citadel Finecast: It is with regret that in the next 10 days all presently outstanding purchases of Citadel Finecast items will be refunded. Unfortunately, a randomly sampled assessment has revealed what we feel to be an excessive level of actual and potential flaws that, if reflected across our entire stock of Finecast, could result in unacceptable inconvenience to our customers. We have reached this decision as soon as was practicably possible but extend our apologies to all customers who are affected. Although we will be returning our present stockholding to the manufacturer, please be assured that we remain committed to carrying the Finecast line and will be restocking in due course. Additional information is available from our website at http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/games-workshop/finecast-resin-models/cat_955.html

More info here:

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/games-workshop/finecast-resin-models/cat_955.html

Wayland website wrote:We regret that we are not presently retailing the Citadel Finecast range.

Unfortunately, a randomly sampled assessment revealed what we feel to be an excessive level of actual and potential flaws that, if reflected across our entire stock of Finecast, could have resulted in unacceptable inconvenience to our customers. Although we will be returning our present stockholding to the manufacturer, please be assured that we remain committed to carrying the Finecast line and will be restocking in due course.

For your information, we sampled and then assessed 60 sealed blisters with 30 taken at random from each of two deliveries of stock. Failures were 17 (57%) of 30 and 16 (53%) of 30, making 33 (55%) of 60 in total. While failure doesn’t necessarily denote the blister content as being of less than merchantable quality, for our purposes it does categorise it as having a visible flaw that might be of sufficient concern to a customer such that the item might be returned. Details and images were provided to the manufacturer, with redacted copies of the images appearing below.

Please note, the blisters remain sealed and so images were taken through the product packaging.

Thats what I'm talking about!! more than 50% faulty products seems to be the the norm and glad to see independent stores refusing to take the product, if only all independent did that. Good attitude there from wayland... Since GW started trowing stones in public at independents they better not have glass ceilings!

Oh my! wayland isnt a GW fan so they MUST BE making those numbers up!

Wayland does so right, they won't be retailing those unless they receive models without any miscast.

I lol'd at the hairs inside the blister...nothing to do with the quality of the models really, but I like that Wayland was like "...no, you can have this back."

You know what is even worse? Is since blisters are sealed you cannot see the back of many models so many flaws just cannot be detected with closed blisters.

Yeah, it's why I've been reluctant to pick up a Lelith so far. You can't really see her arms/blades, or tell if her hair is all "intact"...really easy to tell if she's missing toes though.

I don't think people should worry. If you buy an unsatisfactory casting simply return it to GW for a refund.

obsidianaura wrote:Starting to wonder if this change to resin really will save GW money.

With metal you you recylce bad quality minis. Now, with resin it cant be remade can it?

I think with Finecast figures, they can be ground up and added as 'filler', but not simply melted down and reused.

I have no experience casting miniatures or with resin, so I could be way off base, but I think I read it in another thread on either here or Warseer.