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 SirDonlad wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
Well, 7th was fun while it lasted.


bye everyone!

Same here, cancelling skittarii order and switching to 30k permanently.

Until they release 30K eldar with the same weapon load outs

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

 Sillycybin wrote:
I don't understand why people say things like this. This is mainly a building, painting and casual gaming hobby for fans of the warhammer 40k universe.

Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

You could not have been seriously involved in the hobby if your willing to drop it because of a change that is rumoured to occur in one edition, of (presumably) the many that an involved fan has played.

One of the few sensible posts I've seen during my time here. +1 sir.

What if, power gamers buy a bucket load of Windrider Jetbikes and fix Scatter Lasers onto all of them, only for 8th edition to roll around and GW to say 'you know what, let's remove Relentless from Bikes and see how the fanbase reacts?'

As DE, I'm not fussed, as Orks I'm not fussed, as Marines I'm slightly fussed but I don't play White Scars so Melta is still an option (get grav from Centurions) as Nids I'm not fussed but as someone who just bought a load of Windriders? I would pay GW to see that face

 Sillycybin wrote:
Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

And then they ignore your request for any reason and keep stomping you due to superior codex.

When a game stops being fun, walking away from it forever is a perfectly reasonable response, no matter how serious your involvement has been.

 Frozocrone wrote:
What if, power gamers buy a bucket load of Windrider Jetbikes and fix Scatter Lasers onto all of them, only for 8th edition to roll around and GW to say 'you know what, let's remove Relentless from Bikes and see how the fanbase reacts?'

As DE, I'm not fussed, as Orks I'm not fussed, as Marines I'm slightly fussed but I don't play White Scars so Melta is still an option (get grav from Centurions) as Nids I'm not fussed but as someone who just bought a load of Windriders? I would pay GW to see that face

They'll move to Shuriken Cannons, which are Assault weapons

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

Caederes wrote:
EDIT: Lol, never mind. May as well be honest; I found this on another forum. No credit for me other than sharing it lol.

Page 30, Munitorum Report, top left section;

"The Eldar have more Destroyer Weapons than anyone else - Wraithguard, Wraithknights and D-cannons are going to wreak true destructive havoc!"

Good work GW

How much does anyone want to bet that the balancing factor there will be that Wraithguards will be moved up to Extremely Bulky and not be able to use transports - so they have d weapons at short range but footslog it.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
What if, power gamers buy a bucket load of Windrider Jetbikes and fix Scatter Lasers onto all of them, only for 8th edition to roll around and GW to say 'you know what, let's remove Relentless from Bikes and see how the fanbase reacts?'

As DE, I'm not fussed, as Orks I'm not fussed, as Marines I'm slightly fussed but I don't play White Scars so Melta is still an option (get grav from Centurions) as Nids I'm not fussed but as someone who just bought a load of Windriders? I would pay GW to see that face

They'll move to Shuriken Cannons, which are Assault weapons

Well that's just ruined my day :/ Aside everything else.

BRB taking my unboxed Necron stuff back to the store and putting my money somewhere else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Naaris wrote:

Caederes wrote:
EDIT: Lol, never mind. May as well be honest; I found this on another forum. No credit for me other than sharing it lol.

Page 30, Munitorum Report, top left section;

"The Eldar have more Destroyer Weapons than anyone else - Wraithguard, Wraithknights and D-cannons are going to wreak true destructive havoc!"

Good work GW

How much does anyone want to bet that the balancing factor there will be that Wraithguards will be moved up to Extremely Bulky and not be able to use transports - so they have d weapons at short range but footslog it.

Simple, ally some DE for an Archon w/ WWP. No Scatter DS solves that issue.

Of course, GW thinks in a vacuum

 Sillycybin wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
Well, 7th was fun while it lasted.


bye everyone!

Same here, cancelling skittarii order and switching to 30k permanently.

I don't understand why people say things like this. This is mainly a building, painting and casual gaming hobby for fans of the warhammer 40k universe.

Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

You could not have been seriously involved in the hobby if your willing to drop it because of a change that is rumoured to occur in one edition, of (presumably) the many that an involved fan has played.

Like I said in a thread down in general discussion, the people who are seriously considering leaving the game, it's not just about this one dex. That's the final straw. The game is pretty hopelessly unbalanced now, and getting worse with each release again, and that, coupled with the amount of money you spend on the game is enough to drive people away.

 Sillycybin wrote:


What kind of friends do you have?

Not everyone has the luxury to game with close friends. Pick up games, leagues, and tourneys are common ways many people get games in, all of which will involve a large amount of relative strangers to acquantances.

What stops you from playing with someone else instead of them?

Not everyone has the luxury of a dozen or more opponents to choose from at any given time. If my choice is to play a person with a strong list I have no hope against, or not play that night, the fault lies with the game.

Do you live on the moon with one other person and are eternally engaged in a game of 40k for the resources necessary for survival?

Do you live on Mars with a colony of perfect 40k opponents that think exactly like you and avoid every single possibility of cheesy or overpowered builds?

Your going to tell me that the only reason you ever played 40k was to win and not for the simple pleasure of owning a beautiful army of "your dudes" who fight in the wonderous universe that is 40k?

Which is a black and white way of arguing that point. Its much more nuanced than that, and you and I both know it. The game isn't all about winning, but I think a vast majority of people would be lying if they said they enjoyed losing every single game due to factors outside of their control. The visual appeal is one aspect of the enjoyment people get from 40k, and I imagine another equally important part is playing a game where player decisions during the game lead to a close, yet satisfying win or loss, not due to some inherent power level difference in factions.

No one enjoys being punished for liking a faction that is generally sub-par, and likewise, no one enjoys being the faction everyone frowns at because its just so powerful.

I might not quit the game. But I'll be very selective about who I play.

I'll also look for people who are selling their models on the cheap. I don't support this release so shan't be directly funding GW.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Sillycybin wrote:
Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

And then they ignore your request for any reason and keep stomping you due to superior codex.

When a game stops being fun, walking away from it forever is a perfectly reasonable response, no matter how serious your involvement has been.

Why not try playing against the models first before throwing your toys out of the pram though? At the end of the day everything's down to the dice roll.

 Sillycybin wrote:
I don't understand why people say things like this. This is mainly a building, painting and casual gaming hobby for fans of the warhammer 40k universe.

Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

That makes sense, but....why is this choice being foisted upon the players? When I play a game, I want to devise a list that uses models I like, and which I think will be effective. I want to turn up, play the game against my opponent, do my best to win while they do the same*, and win or lose based on my skill.

I don't want to play some weird parallel game of tinkering with my list so it doesn't pass some vague and hazy standard of "too good", or with negotiating with my opponent so that neither of us accidentally break the game. Apart from anything else, if I'm paying GW prices for my army book plus models (plus DLC cut from the army book), I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the writers and playtesters did their job of "make sure everything is worth the points value assigned to it".


* You will notice I did not use the phrase "at all costs", so I trust nobody will use that strawman.

Naaris wrote:

Caederes wrote:
EDIT: Lol, never mind. May as well be honest; I found this on another forum. No credit for me other than sharing it lol.

Page 30, Munitorum Report, top left section;

"The Eldar have more Destroyer Weapons than anyone else - Wraithguard, Wraithknights and D-cannons are going to wreak true destructive havoc!"

Good work GW

How much does anyone want to bet that the balancing factor there will be that Wraithguards will be moved up to Extremely Bulky and not be able to use transports - so they have d weapons at short range but footslog it.

That would make sense, but... they're aren't as big as Broadsides to justify that (they're a bit teeny taller than a farseer, IIRC)
I won't expect more bulkyness

Let us put it in a way that is expressively... slightly weaker. Let us say, for arguments sake, that GW did in fact put in a rule that said only on 6's do the hits count as destroyer HITS (and the reason it would be on hits is that I have no idea how it would work on a wound roll... what you wound on a 6 but now you have to roll on the D-chart and on a 1 it was discounted...so yes, it has to be hit). The problem would still be immense if still not in the slightest weaker. It is still a Strength 10 AP 1 shot, so that still hurts like hell and will instant kill most other models, but out of those shots you will get at least 1 roll of a 6 (statistically) - which then has a 5/6 chance to decimate anything it touches. Playing with some wound shenanigans, I can tell you to take the normal shots first... and then when your HQ is all alone, or something precious is coming up, the destroyer wound comes up. The squad has always been a scalpel of decimation, now its even sharper and scarier... which to me was unnecessary.

As for bikes I can only hope that is a misprint. There is no way that something that bad could actually go through playtesting. But playing 40k for many years and my faith has somewhat... diminished.

If this is the case, I might just - quite possibly for the first time ever - flat out refuse to play with that person. It is not that I will lose, I have lost many games, it is that I will lose with quite literally no hope of winning. At least with admechlance I can win with positioning and objectives, and other means. Seeing that codex entry leaves me with dread. How some people can say that it "only kills 25-30 marines" a turn is baffling to me - being that in most games ... at max.. there will be 50 - 60 marines (I am thinking full drop pod army)

Like I said before in this thread - I have slowly moved myself to other systems that I enjoy more. I have sold all but one of my armies (my heavily converted and thematic Heresy White Scars Army... used for 40k ) and moved to companies like spartan games. They are responsive in their forums, their models are gorgeoussss, and the games are actually quite balanced and fun (specifically Firestorm armada and planetfall). I have reserved myself to almost playing 40k at least once a month, or at tournaments, but honestly even that might change.

It sucks because I love the lore, the background, and I do love the models, but again pictures say 1000 words, and those pictures quite literally break the game.

BTW for those who say that scatter lasers do not rend do not realize the powers of warlocks.. and can cause those weapons to rend. So while they do take out a majority of infantry and light tanks fairly easily, with rends and 120 shots....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
What if, power gamers buy a bucket load of Windrider Jetbikes and fix Scatter Lasers onto all of them, only for 8th edition to roll around and GW to say 'you know what, let's remove Relentless from Bikes and see how the fanbase reacts?'

As DE, I'm not fussed, as Orks I'm not fussed, as Marines I'm slightly fussed but I don't play White Scars so Melta is still an option (get grav from Centurions) as Nids I'm not fussed but as someone who just bought a load of Windriders? I would pay GW to see that face

They'll move to Shuriken Cannons, which are Assault weapons

Well that's just ruined my day :/ Aside everything else.

BRB taking my unboxed Necron stuff back to the store and putting my money somewhere else.

Pick up some spartan games you won't be disappointed. Firestorm Armada is great - nothing is better than railgunning your opponent to death as they try to broadside you - damn dirty sorylians

 Sillycybin wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Sillycybin wrote:
Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

And then they ignore your request for any reason and keep stomping you due to superior codex.

.

What kind of friends do you have that would simply ignore your request? What a purely hypothetical senario. No one in the real world would ignore such a request from someone who is going to take the time to play a game of 40 with them.

What stops you from playing with someone else instead of them?

Do you live on the moon with one other person and are eternally engaged in a game of 40k for the resources necessary for survival?

Your going to tell me that the only reason you ever played 40k was to win and not for the simple pleasure of owning a beautiful army of "your dudes" who fight in the wonderous universe that is 40k?

Are you going to come back when the codex your playing becomes top dog in a latter edition? What kind of person does this make you?

Some of us would like to play pick up games wherever we go instead of in our safe and warm coccon of friendly gaming.

Although this entire discussion makes me feel like I'm on a starship slowly leaving Earth as it descends into nuclear war. I'm off to better worlds (games) and just feel sad for those trapped behind i nthe random mushroom clouds (of gakky rules).

 Sillycybin wrote:


I don't understand why people say things like this. This is mainly a building, painting and casual gaming hobby for fans of the warhammer 40k universe.

Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

You could not have been seriously involved in the hobby if your willing to drop it because of a change that is rumoured to occur in one edition, of (presumably) the many that an involved fan has played.

Even if the above assessment about what 40k is were correct (I'd argue many people don't see 40k that way), a casual game benefits just as much as a competitive game, because swirching stuff around comes with a significant $$ cost.

Is the casual Saim-Hann eldar fan who just wants to build and paint some eldar jetbikes and then casually game with friends supposed to do extensive research into the game mechanics to the point he realizes his fluffy jetbike army utterly wrecks most other fluffy and semi-competituve armies?

Lack of balance and social contract works in a game like d&d, where 'what you play is OP/UP' means grab a sheet of paper and make a new character ccharacter, nit in 40k, where 'grqbbing a new sheet of paper' involves spending a ton of $$$ on new models, and a ton of time in building/painting them

 Sillycybin wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
Well, 7th was fun while it lasted.


bye everyone!

Same here, cancelling skittarii order and switching to 30k permanently.

I don't understand why people say things like this. This is mainly a building, painting and casual gaming hobby for fans of the warhammer 40k universe.

Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

You could not have been seriously involved in the hobby if your willing to drop it because of a change that is rumoured to occur in one edition, of (presumably) the many that an involved fan has played.

Some people ( myself included) prefer tournement play. This sort of thing ruins that.

 Sillycybin wrote:

I don't understand why people say things like this. This is mainly a building, painting and casual gaming hobby for fans of the warhammer 40k universe.

Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

You could not have been seriously involved in the hobby if your willing to drop it because of a change that is rumoured to occur in one edition, of (presumably) the many that an involved fan has played.

While you do have a point to some extent, these changes seem to really have potential to invalidate whole armies. You don't have to play anyone you don't want to, but if there is no semblance at all of balance why would you even play for fun? You can only handicap yourself so much because you are basically not even playing.

Assuming the worst: A single squad of scatter jetbikes will nearly murder an entire 30 may ork boy squad in one turn. A single squad is hardly spamming and entirely makes sense to take if someone want to run any sort of Hann themed army. D- Weapons basically mean any unit that does not get a save is has a 5/6 chance of losing multiple hull points in a single turn. A regular D-Cannon will basically eliminate any AV14 near immediately. Any landraiders or Leman Russ tanks are basically pointless. No armored company no regular marine armies using the already weak land raider to fun play. An Iydanden army is supposed to have a lot of wraith units for its fluff which means to play one it is D party. How do you make one a fun list now that doesn't auto win?

The social contract thing only goes so far. If I go with what you are saying and be an eldar player, why should I buy a codex that I have to drastically alter to utilize properly. Even if I did alter it, who am I to decide what is good or bad related to design. Even if I do have a good idea, where am I going to find players that support that idea. There comes a point where the game becomes unplayable for a person. Right now it really suffers on the competitive side. With decurion and now potentially this as well it looks to be basically screwed on the fluff side as well. Time will tell, but it is looking pretty grim.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Sillycybin wrote:
Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

And then they ignore your request for any reason and keep stomping you due to superior codex.

When a game stops being fun, walking away from it forever is a perfectly reasonable response, no matter how serious your involvement has been.

Why not try playing against the models first before throwing your toys out of the pram though? At the end of the day everything's down to the dice roll.

So let's play a game. You roll 2D6 and pick the highest, I'll roll 10D6 and pick the highest. It's all down to the dice though, so it's fair, right?

I knew my faith would one day be rewarded: Distortion Cannon for Life!

bwahahaha!

Side note: Has anyone else pieced together that the Wraith Knight might very well be swinging his D stick at initiative 5? Suck it, Imperial Knights.

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

DCannon4Life wrote:
I knew my faith would one day be rewarded: Distortion Cannon for Life!

bwahahaha!

Side note: Has anyone else pieced together that the Wraith Knight might very well be swinging his D stick at initiative 5? Suck it, Imperial Knights.

Have you pieced together how no one will ever want to play against eldar again? Except maybe other eldar players? So both of your Wraith Knights can suck eachother?

 Sillycybin wrote:
Where have you all been for every edition of 40k? When has this game ever been "balanced"? Why leave now when heldrakes use to dominate the skies and invisible daemon princes of "you cant shoot me" existed?

Just because something is already broken, doesnt mean breaking it more makes it the same... New codices and editions should fix the game, not ruin the fun for more people

While it's one thing to enjoy playing with your friends and expecting them to always make the noble choice, is it really too much to ask for a balanced and properly play tested product?

This isn't some free steam game with no investment or effort required afterall. This is supposed to be a wargame that just so happens to have a tournament following and players who have invested multiple thousands of dollars and decades of their life playing.

 Sillycybin wrote:
Where have you all been for every edition of 40k? When has this game ever been "balanced"? Why leave now when heldrakes use to dominate the skies and invisible daemon princes of "you cant shoot me" existed?

Do you have a list of logical fallacies you pull out and start reciting whenever someone has a bit of a moan about GW?

 Sillycybin wrote:
Where have you all been for every edition of 40k? When has this game ever been "balanced"? Why leave now when heldrakes use to dominate the skies and invisible daemon princes of "you cant shoot me" existed?

You understand that there are a) degree of broken-ness, and b) that frustration can build up over time, and that eventually there's a breaking point for people?

If you don't understand these concepts, let me know, I'll gladly explain them more.

*Edit* Dammit, Thud's response was better.

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

 Sillycybin wrote:
Where have you all been for every edition of 40k? When has this game ever been "balanced"? Why leave now when heldrakes use to dominate the skies and invisible daemon princes of "you cant shoot me" existed?

Because it's getting worse with each release, when it should be getting better, along with prices creeping up? That not a good enough reason? On top of that there's a lot of alternatives to GW these days, made by companies who give a crap about balance, and in my opinion do much more to deserve my money than GW does. But no because it's always been unbalanced that's unreasonable...

Like Blacksails said, it builds up, and eventually it's too much for people.

 Sillycybin wrote:

 Thud wrote:

 Sillycybin wrote:
Where have you all been for every edition of 40k? When has this game ever been "balanced"? Why leave now when heldrakes use to dominate the skies and invisible daemon princes of "you cant shoot me" existed?

Do you have a list of logical fallacies you pull out and start reciting whenever someone has a bit of a moan about GW?

Ad hominem is what you are doing right now, Ironic.

No. An ad hominem argument is when you ignore the opposing argument and attack the person making it instead.

My post was not an ad hominem argument, because it did not ignore your argument, quite the opposite, it was a criticism of your argument.

Try harder. Preferably in a different thread.