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It seems unlikely they'll come with Grav on account of basically being Heresy-era Dark Angels and generally lacking access to modern armouries. It hurts my purse to say it, but they're a faction that would probably be best represented by a Forge World range that could give them a decent gamut of HH toys to bring to town. Ideally they'd have things in common with both loyalists (to the Warmaster) and corpse-lovers so that each of us has some concrete benefit to taking some, and at the very least allow for the Dark Vengeance minis to be employed as is. Fingers crossed for the rules drop on Saturday.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Lame, 10 more points for the privilege of a new faction. If they don't come with Grav they won't be seeing any more table time then they do now.

At least we still have Alpha Legion.

They do get infiltrate, so i guess they are pretty much alpha legion chosen... meh

Hopefully they get some badass rules. If not KDK all the way boys and girls!

What's KDK have to do with it?

Fallen Rules, in Spanish.

http://www.lavozdehorus.com/nuevas-unidades-angeles-caidos/

Basically, they are Chosen with Stubborn and ATSKNF for +2 ppm. They don't have access to grav, just the standard Chosen loadouts. And it doesn't say anything about drop pods.

The Fallen formation is 1 - 3 squads of Chosen plus Cypher. So this is pretty much the existing dataslate, unless Cypher himself gets some new special rules.

I could see using the Formation just to get Cypher, but that's about it.

Do they still have 5 point power fists? lol

 andysonic1 wrote:
What's KDK have to do with it?

For a more efficient ally over the fallen

stewe128 wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
What's KDK have to do with it?

For a more efficient ally over the fallen

I think they serve two completely different purposes. Fallen Champs provide infiltrating melta/plasma + Cypher. This could be used to eliminate a threat quickly or establish a forward base for your deployment units to move to. KDK provides Gorepack. This is great for putting up a wall of flesh between you and the enemy and also tarpitting things. These aren't the only strats, just the ones I've thought about to help my own army.

I've always liked the idea of having a "super special ops" unit in my army somewhere but World Eaters doesn't really allow that. The Fallen could, or a unit of Alpha Legion Chosen. I don't really NEED infiltrators but rule of cool and all that.

The chosen of Abaddon would be a nice little formation for that if only they had infiltrate or infiltrate wouldn't be so hard to hand out.

Hm if you roll on the generic Warlord Trait tables, there is a Trait that gives 3 infantry units Infiltrate.

It's not guranteed but there is a chance=)

Yea and if you don't get it, then the unit becomes pretty forgettable. You're expecting them to infiltrate and they aren't objective secured so there isn't much reason to get a transport for them. You can get it by including ahriman or huron, but Huron can't be taken in any legion and ahirman only for TSons, so you'd have to go without legion affiliation and even then, that kind of defeats the purpose, since the unit is fairly cheap on it's own, but now you need to pay an extra hq who, most likely, can't even join the unit, while also loosing the free boni.

It's much easier in practice to bring an alpha legion CAD if you want to infiltrate chosen. The BL formation could have been great to just kind of plug in like the cabal since it can be a single unit. Fearless, and hatred helps when you're that close up, plus you would take a sorcerer for a little extra psychic juice. But yea, AL is so much easier to do. That or the fallen.They might not have hatred and you you have to pay for cypher (not really a bad thing), but stubborn, ATSKNF and ld10 is nice too.

Hm, maybe I'll just stick with the Termis being the army cool guys. I didn't buy Red Butchers to be used as 40k Termis for nothing I suppose.

Here's one I'm scratching my head over: Missile Launchers or Autocannons for Havocs? I take three units of Havocs in my current World Eater list. I took all missile launchers in a few games and they were awesome, but they are pretty pricey.

Autocannons are better for the points. For three ML you get 4.5 Autocannons. That's 3 S8 AP3 or 3 S4 AP6 blasts, or 9 S7 AP4 shots. Quantity is its own quality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That was silly wording. For four ML you get 6 Autocannons.

Thing I'm wondering about is I love the Emperor's Children organization, but I don't have any Noise Marines, so I wonder if I can get by with just a warband and the auxiliary choices. Ever since I got this dex I can't make up my mind between EC and Alpha Legion.

I've noticed the quantity over quality with my army already so Autocannons it is.

Now I have 110 extra points (1850). I can take two more terminators in my termicide plus an additional spawn for my juggerlord, but that feels like a waste. I could try and find 75 points somewhere to bring another unit of CSM, or I could add combi weapons to my bikes and csm champs.

Additional question: 10 man CSM squads or 5 man CSM squads for World Eaters? The larger squads last longer and give up less VP, but can be focused down. The MSU option is harder for gunline armies to deal with and the champs can bring combi meltas, effectively bringing more weapons to the table at a cost. Thoughts?

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Thing I'm wondering about is I love the Emperor's Children organization, but I don't have any Noise Marines, so I wonder if I can get by with just a warband and the auxiliary choices. Ever since I got this dex I can't make up my mind between EC and Alpha Legion.

No one ever said you have to take Noise Marines.

I play against an EC army that consists mostly of CC-oriented CSM and Chosen. The higher initiative reduces wounds, and the IoE gives them 4+ FNP.

While I would not say they are as tough as Death Guard, they certainly do more damage than Plague Marines.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Thing I'm wondering about is I love the Emperor's Children organization, but I don't have any Noise Marines, so I wonder if I can get by with just a warband and the auxiliary choices. Ever since I got this dex I can't make up my mind between EC and Alpha Legion.

No one ever said you have to take Noise Marines.

I play against an EC army that consists mostly of CC-oriented CSM and Chosen. The higher initiative reduces wounds, and the IoE gives them 4+ FNP.

While I would not say they are as tough as Death Guard, they certainly do more damage than Plague Marines.

It still bugs me that EC get better CC buffs than WE. Sure more attacks are always fun but going first is waaaay better.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

No one ever said you have to take Noise Marines.

I play against an EC army that consists mostly of CC-oriented CSM and Chosen. The higher initiative reduces wounds, and the IoE gives them 4+ FNP.

While I would not say they are as tough as Death Guard, they certainly do more damage than Plague Marines.

It still bugs me that EC get better CC buffs than WE. Sure more attacks are always fun but going first is waaaay better.

The EC thing bugs me too.

Also, Berzerkers are outclassed by World Eaters CSMs. Was surprised to learn that.

Also, Plague Marines are outclassed by Death Guard CSM when they are taken outside a Plague Colony. Doesn't seem to make sense.

Thousand Sons are still Thousand Sons. That's the worst news.

Point for point, you can still outclass all of them with massed cultists. Provided they don't die on the way to the assault.

*sigh* Dark Gods, your ways are as flummoxing as they are ruinous. Speaking specifically about Rob, Eddie and Duncan, here. It's their fault.

Well EC were always good in CC fluff wise, just in a different way. But yea, marks should have some kind of permanent effect. It sucks that MoK is only good on the turn you charge. At the very least it should have been a flat +1 attack instead of +1 attack only when you charge...or get charged I suppose , though that happens very rarely in my experience.

 Roknar wrote:
Well CC were always good in CC fluff wise, just in a different way. But yea, marks should have some kind of permanent effect. It sucks that MoK is only good on the turn you charge. At the very least it should have been a flat +1 attack instead of +1 attack only when you charge...or get charged I suppose , though that happens very rarely in my experience.

The Endless Hatred rule for Black Legion troops with VotLW lets them re-reroll all failed hits. They also get Crusader.

I think the reason I like them so much is that a) they are not outdoing some cult squad, b) they get this advantage outside the their legion-specific detachment, and c) it makes it so they actually do something better than cultists.

Well there's also the fact that BL can't actually take any of the cult units other than zerkers in their decurion lol. And the hounds actually do outclass the zerkers since they get their mark for free and zerkers don't get a discount.
Though they don't really compete in a CAD or Black crusade like they do for other legions. Except for zerkers since they are reasonably close but with CSM getting ObSec in a crusade when zerkers get nothing. Unless you want the maelstrom I suppose.

It would have been nice if they had crusader base though, rather then from the decurion. Essentially all BL got was hatred. As much as I like hatred, it just feels a bit lacking as our only thing outside of the decurion.

Thoughts on Cypher?

Hit and run
Shrouded
Eternal Warrior
And they shall no know fear
Infiltrate
Plasma shooting

Not amazing for 190 but decent toolbox.

How about in a TS terminator blob with sorcerer support and astral grimoire?

I don't understand How he's NOT amazing. He's an EW shield, gives out shrouded and Hit And Run, and the cherry on top being able to land some S7 AP2 at initiative (though that's only two of the attacks).

190 pts is quite a lot for 3 wounds with a 3+ save. But can work.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
190 pts is quite a lot for 3 wounds with a 3+ save. But can work.

He has Shrouded and EW. If you can't see the utility in that simply because there's only 3 wounds at 3+ that's honestly your loss.

Problem with Cypher is you have to take a formation to take him with Legion detachments. That's a base 290 investment before upgrades.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Problem with Cypher is you have to take a formation to take him with Legion detachments. That's a base 290 investment before upgrades.

Nopers!

Cypher can be selected as part of the primary detachment of any armies of the imperial or chaos space marine faction. He does not use a force org slot.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Problem with Cypher is you have to take a formation to take him with Legion detachments. That's a base 290 investment before upgrades.

Nopers!

Cypher can be selected as part of the primary detachment of any armies of the imperial or chaos space marine faction. He does not use a force org slot.

Nopers!

CSM Legion Detachments only allow certain named characters if any. Specifically it states only certain Unique characters are allowed. So no named character named Cypher in Legion Detachments. So you have to take the Fallen Champ detachment, which just arbitrarily got 10 points more expensive base.

Hmmm that is a bit obnoxious. Depends where you have the warlord... But yeah the warlord is almost always going to want to be legion. Damn. Nuts to the formation, alpha legion can do it better.