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 blackmage wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
At least get your math right. I won't say it's a GOOD way of handling Vindicares, but there's no reason to fudge the math to make them look worse.

did you never heard of screens? how do you ever think you can drop inside 12" bubble of a vindicare?he can sit in a corner with just a small unit screening him, then you will drop too far away to ever have a chance to shoot, is not math is called, skilled opponent. I play too often Ds demons and often my opponent can prevent me to drop where i would like.

Again-I didn't say it was a good way of handling Vindicares.

I just gave math that wasn't wrong.

I really do hate to be an optimist, but I'm starting to think that CSM squads with a combi bolter and the rotor cannon might be....no longer hot trash? Like, not great, but now middle of the road?

Being kind and giving them reroll 1st (which, yes, do bump the cost, but are super common in our army and will splash to everything else...so not fair to charge them the full price)

At 24 inches they kill 7 boys (49 points), 5 fire warriors (50 points), a little bit less than 7 guard (28 points, bleh). Those aren't actually terrible numbers for an 85 point unit. Very few things kill guard efficiently. We used to say 40 cultists with VotLW, Abadon and Endless was pretty good?

Within 12 (not the easiest thing) that's 52 dead guard, 26 outside of 12, 50 boys, 25 outside of 12, 39 fire warriors, 19 outside of 12.

A unit of 10 CSM with double the above with let's say prescience and reroll 1s (so let's say from huron, a much cheaper alternative to abadon), votlw and endless costs about the same. 42 dead guard at 24 inches, 46 boys at 24 inches, 33 dead fire warriors. So they end up falling about 15-20% behind what was considered one of our better things in terms of casualties, but can manage it at twice the range. This does assume they didn't move, but getting 40 cultists within 12 inches of a target isn't the easiest feat either.

Durability-wise, it's hard to measure because of the types of guns are much more varied. Probably in favor of the cultists, but it is worth noting that if the cultists lost 20 men, they're half strength for shooting. If the marines lose 5, they're at more like 75% strength.

I dunno, I think between that reaper cannon and bolter discipline, marines might not be trash tier anymore, particularly for red corsairs, black legion or alpha legion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the more I look at the dark apostate, the more I gnash my teeth in frustration. I would really *really* have loved to be able to pick two from the prayers list (excluding the explicitly inferior got mark ones). But it feels like unless you make use of the rerolling hits prayer, which I think is hard to do in many builds, he's really not worth it; 100 points to give -1 to hit or +1 to hit is just not useful outside of a very small number of units (kytans, oblits. LoS) and I'm not sure it is justified even there. If his disciples let him get a 3rd prayer or even if there was a strategem to rotate prayers I might like him...I really loved him when I thought he got all of the prayers.

Here's some reactions and thoughts:

1) As others are saying, Red Corsairs battalions with MSU 5x csm with combi-bolter+rotor cannon will be very common.

2) The Legions worth using in general will be Black Legion because they have so many toys, and Alpha Legion because, well, you know.

3) Our major competitive lists will likely be: A) Daemon-engine-zilla with support characters, B) gunlines based around havocs and oblits with support characters, C) Death star+nasty characters, and D) mass cheap infantry (csm+cheap terminators) with support characters.

4) Triple vindicare will wreck type B and C lists, but fail against A and D.

5) Obvious death star ideas:
a) 10 nurgle combi plasma terminators with -1 to be hit power and prayer. Probably alpha legion, or black legion with 1CP strat to give them all marks (then pile on slaanesh 5+++ and double shoot strat.) To be extra annoying, add a detachment of death guards with blight lords and cloud of flies. 20 combi plasma terminators that are basically unshootable!
b) 20 possessed with buffs and specialist detachment. Alpha legion for infiltrate, or flawless host to maximize choppiness. Just warptime them in turn 1 after screen clearing with rotor cannons. They can be extremely hard to kill with a prayer/power or two.
c) Lord of Skulls or Kytan with DA prayers and/or MoP powers. How do you deal with a melee superheavy with 4++, -1 to be hit, and that first turn charges with warptime?
d) Red corsairs melee CSM swarm getting fearless from Abaddon. Just throw 3 squads of 20 at them. They aren't super killy, but they will get all over you. Almost nobody has the tools to deal with getting tarpitted by power armor right now. And you can respawn 1 per round with the strat. May as well also throw in a 30 cultists squad with Tide of Traitors.

6) Black Legion gets a ton of nice relics and ways to hand out more relics and warlord traits. How about a character-centric build where you bring a bunch of CSM to be chaff and rely on souped of characters to murder everything? This will go well with Red Corsairs because they also get bonus relic, and will provide the CP.

7) Guessing we'll see a lot of lists that are 2x Red Corsair batallions and 1x Black Legion or Alpha legion to get VotLW on havocs or oblits.

drakerocket wrote:
I really do hate to be an optimist, but I'm starting to think that CSM squads with a combi bolter and the rotor cannon might be....no longer hot trash? Like, not great, but now middle of the road?

Being kind and giving them reroll 1st (which, yes, do bump the cost, but are super common in our army and will splash to everything else...so not fair to charge them the full price)

At 24 inches they kill 7 boys (49 points), 5 fire warriors (50 points), a little bit less than 7 guard (28 points, bleh). Those aren't actually terrible numbers for an 85 point unit. Very few things kill guard efficiently. We used to say 40 cultists with VotLW, Abadon and Endless was pretty good?

Within 12 (not the easiest thing) that's 52 dead guard, 26 outside of 12, 50 boys, 25 outside of 12, 39 fire warriors, 19 outside of 12.

A unit of 10 CSM with double the above with let's say prescience and reroll 1s (so let's say from huron, a much cheaper alternative to abadon), votlw and endless costs about the same. 42 dead guard at 24 inches, 46 boys at 24 inches, 33 dead fire warriors. So they end up falling about 15-20% behind what was considered one of our better things in terms of casualties, but can manage it at twice the range. This does assume they didn't move, but getting 40 cultists within 12 inches of a target isn't the easiest feat either.

Durability-wise, it's hard to measure because of the types of guns are much more varied. Probably in favor of the cultists, but it is worth noting that if the cultists lost 20 men, they're half strength for shooting. If the marines lose 5, they're at more like 75% strength.

I dunno, I think between that reaper cannon and bolter discipline, marines might not be trash tier anymore, particularly for red corsairs, black legion or alpha legion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the more I look at the dark apostate, the more I gnash my teeth in frustration. I would really *really* have loved to be able to pick two from the prayers list (excluding the explicitly inferior got mark ones). But it feels like unless you make use of the rerolling hits prayer, which I think is hard to do in many builds, he's really not worth it; 100 points to give -1 to hit or +1 to hit is just not useful outside of a very small number of units (kytans, oblits. LoS) and I'm not sure it is justified even there. If his disciples let him get a 3rd prayer or even if there was a strategem to rotate prayers I might like him...I really loved him when I thought he got all of the prayers.

honestly with bolter discipline just basic CSM squads will likely earn back their points, unlikely they will be high priority targets turn 1 anyway, just sit on objectives and put out half decent shots I dont expect much crazy earning back 3x their points that other squads can but they will do the job you need.

The dark apostle is annoying mostly because the re roll hits in fight phase isnt really hard to come by in CSM armies, you are often running a lord or daemon prince near CC units for the re roll 1s in fight, so him having it on that is pretty meh so you are kinda just paying 100 for the lord back up+ 1 prayer but you cant really tailor him fully. For my lists id prefer to take the illusory supplication for the invuln+warp sight or darkness if I was using him in gun line support, or omen of potency + soul tearer + god specific if I was kitting him for fighting himself(priest with omen and flawless host might actually be pretty killy) I wouldnt have even minded if the helpers were 10 points and gave +1 to casting and +1 prayer known

I think 6 MSU squads with a chain cannon and a combi bolter in each squad will kick the ass of 6 to 8 infantry squads any day of the week. And that's even with mortar support. The question is ... is it overkill. Because it just makes sense to have at least 1 squad of Havocs with chain cannons. And 1 squad of those chain cannon havocs alone, stacked with prescience, VOTLW. Cacophony will decimate chaff already. (64 shots).

There are other types of lists out there. Like knights. A knight will probably take out a whole MSU squad per fight phase with its stompy feet. Also, those 6 infantry squads only cost the imperium player 240 points. He has got a lot of points outside of that to spend on all sorts of nasties.

What I love about the 4 chain cannon havoc squad is that its super efficient and almost a throw away and yet it can clear so much chaff. Its under 150 points, and after you have shot your load of 64 shots, even if the opponent focus all the attention on it and kill it. Its probably killed more than its points in chaff. The thing is, the opponent that focus on killing it is sort of wasting his resources to kill it because it has already done its job the first time it got a alpha strike of 64 shots in. Of course, leaving it alone so that it can get a second 64 shots in isn't a very idea either so he will probably be forced to kill it. lol

Bonus points on that LoS strategy if you use your other MoP power to heal it for 4 a turn between its own heal and Sacrifice from a warpsmith!

 vaklor4 wrote:
Bonus points on that LoS strategy if you use your other MoP power to heal it for 4 a turn between its own heal and Sacrifice from a warpsmith!

Well, bear in mind you need it to be within 6 inches of your MOP to get the +1 invul. And a warp smith has to be near to repair too. Its gonna be hard for the warpsmith or the MOP to keep up if you warp time your LOS forward lol.

Well, if you start the master of possession near the front of the LoS, and advance him, that's about 9-10 inches of movement, and given how long the LoS's tonka truck booty is, it will still be poking the hind of the LoS with his buff about 4-ish inches back (could be 5, cant remember),

so on average you're able to at least keep the LoS within range at 14 inches from the back of it, so the LoS would be at most 18-19 inches forward...So to keep him within range, you wouldn't have to sacrifice THAT much movement, with the right positioning.

I don't actually see much synergy between the MoP and the LoS or kytan. They both want to move way faster than he does and get into melee. I do think the apostate might be worth it because protecting 400+ point models with a -1 might be good enough to warrant it. The other thing to note is that they are daemon engines; which mean Lords Discordant give them +1 WS and BS, which is actually nutters good on those models.

I think a black legion supreme command of a kytan, Lord Discordant with the half damage trait, a dark apostate and a sorc might well be pretty brutal set up with the new specialist detachment may be potent enough to do some real work. Even castelians despise -1 to hit (more than doubles their plasma overloads, reduces their output by something like 20%). The kytan easily survives a castlian volley with (depending on what was used) 12-8 or so wounds remaining. Then he gets healed 1 from himself, d3 more from the lord discordant, he could well survive a second volley. And he can operate at full strength with the specialist strategem.

Also worth noting there is an advance and charge stategem and he advances 2d6; average 19 inch move So...you turn that up a bit with a friendly ahriman on disk who can toss warptime on him, plus prescience...and actually can clear a path through the chaff to the knight? He doesn't have terrible odds of killing the castelian in melee in a single round. I dunno, like, it's quite a bit to stack up, but nothing we're talking about isn't stuff we'd already consider taking anyways. And you have a lot of army left still after this.

 small_gods wrote:
Forgot about the cover thing but seriously, I have played a few games and Ahriman on disc has never been killed. Most games I loose one nurgle infantary character after 2-3 rounds of shooting.

Okay. Ahriman is CAVALRY - if you’re riding a bike or a beast, then you’re protected from the Vindicare’s anti-INFANTRY capability. More power to you if he’s tanked a fair few Exitus rounds with his disc, but I’m still very much worried about my footsloggers.

Furthermore, Vindicare can quite happily use a shoot twice strat every turn, and on average reimburse the CP it if it gets any kills. It’s effective damage output is at least twice what appears; more, if they throw a reroll at it - which isn’t a bad idea if, say, it takes down a 5++ aura or rerolls aura.

New Raptors detachment has piqued my interest. Warp Talons remain painfully expensive, buuuut having an Overwatch denial unit isn’t bad. Plasma paratroopers who can drop in, pop six shots, reliably flock around some gunner unit and then hop away again and shoot if the victim didn’t fall back? That’s not bad at all.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
Forgot about the cover thing but seriously, I have played a few games and Ahriman on disc has never been killed. Most games I loose one nurgle infantary character after 2-3 rounds of shooting.

Okay. Ahriman is CAVALRY - if you’re riding a bike or a beast, then you’re protected from the Vindicare’s anti-INFANTRY capability. More power to you if he’s tanked a fair few Exitus rounds with his disc, but I’m still very much worried about my footsloggers.

Furthermore, Vindicare can quite happily use a shoot twice strat every turn, and on average reimburse the CP it if it gets any kills. It’s effective damage output is at least twice what appears; more, if they throw a reroll at it - which isn’t a bad idea if, say, it takes down a 5++ aura or rerolls aura.

New Raptors detachment has piqued my interest. Warp Talons remain painfully expensive, buuuut having an Overwatch denial unit isn’t bad. Plasma paratroopers who can drop in, pop six shots, reliably flock around some gunner unit and then hop away again and shoot if the victim didn’t fall back? That’s not bad at all.

His Shoot Twice has to target someone else though, right? So it's not THAT reliable at popping one character.

you right you need to choose someone else
@small god: of course Ahrimann might survive as was explained above he is cavarly, he is wounded on 3+ and of corse Nurgle character stand a chance to survive, they have FNP to ignore first damage (and deny head shot) then they can save head shot mortal wounds, many other infantry character cant so they fall prey of vindicare.

 blackmage wrote:
you right you need to choose someone else
@small god: of course Ahrimann might survive as was explained above he is cavarly, he is wounded on 3+ and of corse Nurgle character stand a chance to survive, they have FNP to ignore first damage (and deny head shot) then they can save head shot mortal wounds, many other infantry character cant so they fall prey of vindicare.

He's still wounded on a 3+ it's hardly a massive obstacle for vindicare. And nurgle characters are 4W, with no save against him. I think it is a case of the rules seeming more deadly than they actually are. See maths on previous post, adverage damage to a 3+ character 1.74 wounds per turn. Sure he can pop off a couple of characters but he'll take 3 turns on adverage to down a 4W 3+ model.

I haven't played much 8th but was wondering is there some abaddon death star that could work and if so what would it involve.

It probably is viable but they jury is out on what would make it viable. Used to be he ran with giant squads of cultists. It's less clear now what he should do.

 small_gods wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
you right you need to choose someone else
@small god: of course Ahrimann might survive as was explained above he is cavarly, he is wounded on 3+ and of corse Nurgle character stand a chance to survive, they have FNP to ignore first damage (and deny head shot) then they can save head shot mortal wounds, many other infantry character cant so they fall prey of vindicare.

He's still wounded on a 3+ it's hardly a massive obstacle for vindicare. And nurgle characters are 4W, with no save against him. I think it is a case of the rules seeming more deadly than they actually are. See maths on previous post, adverage damage to a 3+ character 1.74 wounds per turn. Sure he can pop off a couple of characters but he'll take 3 turns on adverage to down a 4W 3+ model.

That seems slow mostly, but it is good to keep in mind you have a dice reroll available (which should bump that to 2 wounds) and the Turbo Strategem is a good way to earn several points back per wound.

 small_gods wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
you right you need to choose someone else
@small god: of course Ahrimann might survive as was explained above he is cavarly, he is wounded on 3+ and of corse Nurgle character stand a chance to survive, they have FNP to ignore first damage (and deny head shot) then they can save head shot mortal wounds, many other infantry character cant so they fall prey of vindicare.

He's still wounded on a 3+ it's hardly a massive obstacle for vindicare. And nurgle characters are 4W, with no save against him. I think it is a case of the rules seeming more deadly than they actually are. See maths on previous post, adverage damage to a 3+ character 1.74 wounds per turn. Sure he can pop off a couple of characters but he'll take 3 turns on adverage to down a 4W 3+ model.

Nurgle has FNP so they can save anytime, dont do lot of math, try play some matches that teach you a lot, lot more than do maths , vindicare get 1 single shot and wound at 3+ is quite different than wound on 2+, same for FNP, 5+++ is a decent way to deny 1 shot 1 dead. U have 33% chance to escape the starting damage so then NO head shot, and another 33% against every further head shots, i play nurgle since months and i know how strong FNP can be. Im testing for ETC finals in april, and vindicare is annoying but nothing Nurgle characters cant handle, again less math more play imho.

Hmmm, the scourged is actually pretty good as a spearhead detachement. Its a shooting legion trait.

The legion trait lets 1 model in a unit reroll 1 hit roll each time it shoots or fights. Plus it overwatchs on a 5+ The scourged strategem lets it shoot at a unit that deep strikes down within 12 inches (with no penalty!).

So, its actually really good if you run a spearhead of 2 units of 1 oblit each and then 1 unit of havocs with lascannons.

The obilts benefit the most from the trait. Its amazing when applied to a 1 model Oblit. And they will overwatch on a 5+. Then the lascannon havoc you set up in the back field also benefits well from the trait because lascannons are single shot, and anything that deep strikes within 12 inches will get 4 lascannons inthe face. Oblits and lascannon haocs don't care that much about losing VOTLW either.

While everyone is trying to find some crazy comboes with our new rules, I think some things fly under the radar...

What's your opponion on this unit :

- 5 Raptors, 2 Plasmaguns and 1 Combi-plasma, 108pts. For 2CP (special detachment and strat), you can drop these guys anywhere, fire 6 re-rollable OC plasma shots. Bring 2 squads and do that on turn 2 and turn 3.

 blackmage wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
you right you need to choose someone else
@small god: of course Ahrimann might survive as was explained above he is cavarly, he is wounded on 3+ and of corse Nurgle character stand a chance to survive, they have FNP to ignore first damage (and deny head shot) then they can save head shot mortal wounds, many other infantry character cant so they fall prey of vindicare.

He's still wounded on a 3+ it's hardly a massive obstacle for vindicare. And nurgle characters are 4W, with no save against him. I think it is a case of the rules seeming more deadly than they actually are. See maths on previous post, adverage damage to a 3+ character 1.74 wounds per turn. Sure he can pop off a couple of characters but he'll take 3 turns on adverage to down a 4W 3+ model.

Nurgle has FNP so they can save anytime, dont do lot of math, try play some matches that teach you a lot, lot more than do maths , vindicare get 1 single shot and wound at 3+ is quite different than wound on 2+, same for FNP, 5+++ is a decent way to deny 1 shot 1 dead. U have 33% chance to escape the starting damage so then NO head shot, and another 33% against every further head shots, i play nurgle since months and i know how strong FNP can be. Im testing for ETC finals in april, and vindicare is annoying but nothing Nurgle characters cant handle, again less math more play imho.

I mean I was literally just talking about how I've played 3-4 games against vindicares. I'm playing in an ETC major this weekend I think the maths is very important in a game that is litterally defined by x/6 in thousands of different combinations


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmmm, the scourged is actually pretty good as a spearhead detachement. Its a shooting legion trait.

The legion trait lets 1 model in a unit reroll 1 hit roll each time it shoots or fights. Plus it overwatchs on a 5+ The scourged strategem lets it shoot at a unit that deep strikes down within 12 inches (with no penalty!).

So, its actually really good if you run a spearhead of 2 units of 1 oblit each and then 1 unit of havocs with lascannons.

The obilts benefit the most from the trait. Its amazing when applied to a 1 model Oblit. And they will overwatch on a 5+. Then the lascannon havoc you set up in the back field also benefits well from the trait because lascannons are single shot, and anything that deep strikes within 12 inches will get 4 lascannons inthe face. Oblits and lascannon haocs don't care that much about losing VOTLW either.

I'm still trying to decide if I should paint up my half of Shadowpear Sourged or Alpha Legion (which is what I'm currently running).

The relic to make someone fight last also seems useful of you can stick it on a daemon prince in the centre of a gunline (would need some careful positioning). What is their warlord trait?

 Nym wrote:
5 Alpha Legion havocs, 4 Reaper autocannons, 110pts. That's 16 shots at 36", S7 AP-1 D1 on a T5 3+ -1 to hit unit. Getting a 2+ save is easy enough, and they'll kill hordes and light vehicles easily while being safer (and cheaper) than Rotor cannon havocs.

As it stands, havocs can't take reaper autocannons (unless they've added it as an option in the updated codex?), only regular autocannons. Half the shots but twice the damage still makes them a fairly effective choice against light armour, but they are somewhat wasted on horde infantry.

Edit : silly me not double-checking things. Havocs can't take Reaper autocannons.

 Nym wrote:
While everyone is trying to find some crazy comboes with our new rules, I think some things fly under the radar...

What's your opponion on these units :

- 5 Alpha Legion havocs, 4 Reaper autocannons, 110pts. That's 16 shots at 36", S7 AP-1 D1 on a T5 3+ -1 to hit unit. Getting a 2+ save is easy enough, and they'll kill hordes and light vehicles easily while being safer (and cheaper) than Rotor cannon havocs.

- 5 Raptors, 2 Plasmaguns and 1 Combi-plasma, 108pts. For 2CP (special detachment and strat), you can drop these guys anywhere, fire 6 re-rollable OC plasma shots. Bring 2 squads and do that on turn 2 and turn 3.

Havocs can take RAC now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WRT Havocs: everyone’s ready to snip off the HB barrels and replace with some tubes from a model trains shop, or an Assault Cannon barrel, yeah? (Honestly surprised the chaingun isn’t a HB variant build, they are so similar in design)

Havocs cannot take Reaper Autocannons, I'm assuming people are seeing "Reaper" in the Heavy Weapons section and missing that the second word in that name is "Chaincannon" Regular Autocannons for days! Terminators still get the Reaper variant, of course.

Make your characters alpha legion. Now vindicare needs 3's to hit in the first place. If you face that many vindicares, put them on a disc. They're now no longe infantry, so 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound. Even if he makes it with his single dice, you then get your 6+ save. That should be more than 50% to ignore the wound. If you get wound eventually, temporal manipulation next time through your T.Sons supreme detachment to bring your guy back up.

3 vindicares ARE scary. At that point, simply hide your characters out of LoS. No harm done whatsoever, and assasins ain't cheap. If they spent one of their 3 detachments and 255 pts on the assasins and they get to do nothing all game long, I call that even.

That's my plan if I face that kind of army. My characters are either able to buff stuff out of sight (Masters of Possession mostly) or could care less about being shot at by a Vindicare (Lord Discordant). My group always plays on boards with a good amount of terrain to counter skew lists of that type, it alleviates a lot of issues competitive or casual 40K can otherwise have.

Speaking of the Lord Discordant, I'm thinking of running a pair of them in that Soul-forged pack or whatever it is called from Vigilus Ablaze; the relic Mechatendrils alone can easily murder half a Primaris squad, and the other Lord will take the Intoxicating Elixir to really buff up its attacks (none of its melee weapons have fixed Strength stats; the bonus attack will only affect the Chainglaive, but buffing most of his attacks up to Strength 8 or 9 is so juicy). They're self contained beat-sticks as long as you have Command Points handy for Daemonforge (pop it on whichever one needs it most or, perhaps more accurately, actually survives to make a combat )

I haven't done the maths but I have a feeling a Lord Discordant with the Intoxicating Elixir (does anything stop him from taking it?) and Daemonforge activated on his top bracket will nearly pop a Knight in one round of combat. Very rough maths, but seems like you'd average 6-8 unsaved damage from the Chainglaive, 4-6 unsaved damage from the Bladed Limbs and Tail, and between 2-6 (including the mortal wounds) unsaved damage from the Techno-Virus Injector. Close but not quite, but for a unit that costs less than half of a Questoris Knight, and nearly a quarter of a Dominus Knight, that's pretty darned good. Very easily capable of turn one charges too, though obviously you'd have to clear the screens first (which the new Chaos are really darned good at doing, mind) and a smartly positioned Knight plus screen will ensure you can't make it to the Knight turn one without a super long charge roll regardless.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Make your characters alpha legion. Now vindicare needs 3's to hit in the first place. If you face that many vindicares, put them on a disc. They're now no longe infantry, so 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound. Even if he makes it with his single dice, you then get your 6+ save. That should be more than 50% to ignore the wound. If you get wound eventually, temporal manipulation next time through your T.Sons supreme detachment to bring your guy back up.

3 vindicares ARE scary. At that point, simply hide your characters out of LoS. No harm done whatsoever, and assasins ain't cheap. If they spent one of their 3 detachments and 255 pts on the assasins and they get to do nothing all game long, I call that even.

Point of clarity: If a Vindicare remains stationary, it hits on 2+ regardless of modifiers. So Alpha Legion does jack-all against it. But making them bikes works well, as the Vindie will go from wounding on 2+ to wounding on 4+ (no longer Infantry and T5)

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 Galef wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Make your characters alpha legion. Now vindicare needs 3's to hit in the first place. If you face that many vindicares, put them on a disc. They're now no longe infantry, so 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound. Even if he makes it with his single dice, you then get your 6+ save. That should be more than 50% to ignore the wound. If you get wound eventually, temporal manipulation next time through your T.Sons supreme detachment to bring your guy back up.

3 vindicares ARE scary. At that point, simply hide your characters out of LoS. No harm done whatsoever, and assasins ain't cheap. If they spent one of their 3 detachments and 255 pts on the assasins and they get to do nothing all game long, I call that even.

Point of clarity: If a Vindicare remains stationary, it hits on 2+ regardless of modifiers. So Alpha Legion does jack-all against it. But making them bikes works well, as the Vindie will go from wounding on 2+ to wounding on 4+ (no longer Infantry and T5)

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Biker sorcerers it is, then! Cool models too. I would so much rather have my exalted sorcerers ride bikes instead of discs. Improvise.Adapt.Overcome!

How would you guys rate a detachment with some greater possessed moving up with their little brothers in a renegade detachment? Maybe run em as red corsairs and have that big block of CSM run up behind them as well being able to replace them with the strategem Support them with a master of posession and sorc? If nothing else it seems it has a lot of synergy.

So, im thinking about the Idea of Running a Lord Discordant with some Decimators in a Soulforged Hunting Pack, but im rather worried about his surviability. 12w T6 2+/5++ will die to anti tank weapons very very quickly, so whats the best way to survive turn 1? Black Legion Half DMG trait sounds pretty great but then you loose the +2move trait, alternatively you could stack AL -1 with a DA -1 prayer to -2 to hit?
Im afraid he will be quite a fire magnet....