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> Fallen summoning Vindicares

Please don’t pin y’all hopes - and base y’all near-future purchases - on this shaky loophole. If you’ve already got Fallen and a Vindicare, knock yourself out. But don’t drop a hundred quid on this

> a lucky Vindicare can kill a support character

Luck don’t come into it. Budget a command reroll and killing a 4w cheerleader is his default - and the CP will usually get reimbursed by the Vindicare Stratagem.

‘Lucky’ to a Vindicare is killing a support character AND a smash Lord in the same turn and then breaking even on CP.

So with cultists losing legion traits and apparently going down to max squads of 30, is their price also going back down to 4? Because I feel like theyre gutting our one good troop choice just to internally make the other choice seem better.

Hmmm, I got a question. Can the same chaos lord be nominated for more than one specialist detachment? It just means he gains two keywords right?

Like, can I nominate a chao lord to be part of Devastation Battery detachment, and then I nominate him again to be part of say raptorial host detachment? So, he gains two keywords right? I don't need to have two separate lords for this right?

 vaklor4 wrote:
So with cultists losing legion traits and apparently going down to max squads of 30, is their price also going back down to 4? Because I feel like theyre gutting our one good troop choice just to internally make the other choice seem better.

No, they remain 5ppm.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmmm, I got a question. Can the same chaos lord be nominated for more than one specialist detachment? It just means he gains two keywords right?

Like, can I nominate a chao lord to be part of Devastation Battery detachment, and then I nominate him again to be part of say raptorial host detachment? So, he gains two keywords right? I don't need to have two separate lords for this right?

No, you dont nominate units you nominate detachments. And a unit cant be part of 2 detachments

stormcraft wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmmm, I got a question. Can the same chaos lord be nominated for more than one specialist detachment? It just means he gains two keywords right?

Like, can I nominate a chao lord to be part of Devastation Battery detachment, and then I nominate him again to be part of say raptorial host detachment? So, he gains two keywords right? I don't need to have two separate lords for this right?

No, you dont nominate units you nominate detachments. And a unit cant be part of 2 detachments

I think the substance of the question put is ‘can a detachment, and thereby all the units in it, be given two Specialist Detachment upgrades?’

It’s an interesting one, I’ve been ruminating on trying to get a Brigade up and running again - and that could quite conceivably have Warp Talons and Havocs and Obliterators in it

I don't think so. I dont have the books on hand, but once a detachment is nominated, it's kind of put in place as 'that detachment', no overlap.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Spoiler:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Yes. And have Abaddon standing there for full re-rolls to hit, and a Cultist screen to make it hard to charge them. I've been playing a Black Legion gunline since the start of 8th edition, anything that increases the survivability or armor is a big deal.

However, Chaos just got a lot stronger as a mid-range army through all the new detachments and combos. Chaos armor is still outgunned by Dark Eldar (and sometimes Tau), Imperial Knights still have ways to wipe them out in a single round, and Ork hordes are nearly impossible to chew through quickly enough to avoid the charge.

Would have loved to see a detachment for Chaos armor that gives them more tactical depth. Looking at the Lord Dischordant and thinking what he can do to hordes. Looking at the Skull Altar and thinking about what a Bloodletter Bomb is now going to mean. Looking at the Daemonkin Ritualists and thinking what they are going to do to Dark Eldar.

Feels like these detachments are so points efficient, there's not going to be a reason for gunlines.

If I ever came across this castle with my triple doomscythe necrons I would blow my load immediately though 1CP to money shot your entire army for 3d3 mortal wounds would be such a niche hard counter

That would be an interesting matchup, the confidence of Necron players is delightful.

I wonder how those Doomscythes would fare against the response, 23 lascannons with full rerolls to hit? 3D3 typically will not kill a unit.

If your somehow packing 23 las canons around abbadon and that things aura then I'm definietly going to buy you a more accurate tape measuring device and or slap the scotch out of your hands

All kidding aside I wouldn't expect them to survive if 23 las canons were still there. It's 3d3 mortals to every unit within 3" range of any point they pick, not 3d3 total It's also only 450 points facing down basically an entire army in that scenario. I think the best shot that castle would have is by using that new crippling fire strat and trying to down one of the fliers before they could pop the strat. I just thought it would be a very unusual and funny situation.

Hehe... you would not be the first to do that. But it's not hard to deploy so that Abaddon's aura affects 30x CSMs, 2x Helbrutes, 3x Predators, 30x Cultists, a Heldrake and a DP (maxed out on lascannons.) And it leads to many funny games.

Dark Eldar, Imperial Knights and Orks pretty much ruined the Black Legion gunline I've been playing since the start of 8th edition. While I see a few things in the new releases that could make it viable again, I've been exploring mid-range lists for a while now and see more potential in the new detachments.

The Host Raptoral, Daemonkin Ritualists, Soulforged Pack and Legion of Skulls detachments all appeal to me. It's all still new and I'm working out the various combinations that can be fielded. Going to need to see points before I know which way I'm going.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has anyone thought about the fact the Fallen have the Imperial keyword?

Wondering if this is a backdoor to allowing us to take Assassins.

Hey man I play black legion too, I have about 15K points worth lol. I know you can pack tons around abby, I just meant it would start to get hard to also pack everyone around the Nocktalith crown because that was what was being discussed before Thats one basket packed with a lot of bread

In regard to assassins, GW failed miserably again when they didn't make each assassin unique. But I am optimistic they might make that very alteration for matched play. It's rare seeing any assassins, it's unicorn rare seeing an execution force with one of each. Your almost more likely to see the Emperor himself then seeing triple of any of the assassins. That said, they will be annoying regardless, but you just need to accept it. The game is constantly throwing wrenches at everyone with each release. Put your character behind a tank or terrain. If you play in a meta with bad terrain try bringing a bastion with you, it's more appealing now that the crown is also available and the Red-17 can get CP's easily from less detachments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Was it mentioned if Apostles have to pick a prayer in their sheet, or do they just know all of them and pick for the battle round? (excluding god specific of course)

^ all Apostles know Zealotry and pick one of the ten others (six neutral and four deity ones) at the start of the game

So at this point, I think I may start relying on my demons from my demon codex to be the brunt of my 'troop choices'. 3 blocks of 10 cultists for battalion, maybe a pink or bloodletter bomb, but hell if im ever playing big squads of cultists or CSM in any capacity at this point. I'm astounded by how much Cultists are getting nerfed left and right considering they weren't even a big issue anymore.

 vaklor4 wrote:
So at this point, I think I may start relying on my demons from my demon codex to be the brunt of my 'troop choices'. 3 blocks of 10 cultists for battalion, maybe a pink or bloodletter bomb, but hell if im ever playing big squads of cultists or CSM in any capacity at this point. I'm astounded by how much Cultists are getting nerfed left and right considering they weren't even a big issue anymore.

Yeah, the age of the cultist blob has come to an end. It's a shame.

So ill need to tweak points when I get the full book but going from what we know ill likely go

detachment 1-battalion emperors children
master of possession (cursed earth + mutated invig)
dark apostle with a dude helper////

20 cultists
10 cultists (might swap to 5 marines)
10 noise marines (2 blastmasters 8 sonic)

3 bikers///

detatchment 2- EC, spearhead (might use devastation battery
sorcerer (presience + delightful agonies)
5 havocs (4 chaincanons)
5 havocs (4 lascanons) (good old sunkillers)
2 obliterators

detachment 3- Flawless host
Daemon prince- 2 talons, wings, elixer, warlord + the 3 attacks on 6s trait and prescience
chaos lord jump pack- thunderhammer //// (eidolon model)

5 Basic terminators with icon
5 chosen with icon + all lightning claws
1 greater possessed

Rhino
at the moment list is 2019 on battlescribe but with the discounts to termies should be fine.

/// are things I might drop or swap out as needed to adjust for points.

plan is prince and the chosen party bus ride up one side, depending on match up ill deploy oblits on the board and just use defensive positions + the return fire command point if im going second. The prince + chosen and greater possessed party bomb will be quite mean if it gets into CC.

 VyRa wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
So at this point, I think I may start relying on my demons from my demon codex to be the brunt of my 'troop choices'. 3 blocks of 10 cultists for battalion, maybe a pink or bloodletter bomb, but hell if im ever playing big squads of cultists or CSM in any capacity at this point. I'm astounded by how much Cultists are getting nerfed left and right considering they weren't even a big issue anymore.

Yeah, the age of the cultist blob has come to an end. It's a shame.

We still have Renegades and Heretics. They still have a Commisar equivalent I think so it isn't like they're gonna just run away.

 lindsay40k wrote:


I think the substance of the question put is ‘can a detachment, and thereby all the units in it, be given two Specialist Detachment upgrades?’

It’s an interesting one, I’ve been ruminating on trying to get a Brigade up and running again - and that could quite conceivably have Warp Talons and Havocs and Obliterators in it

No, you can only apply the Specialist Detachment strat once to any given detachment; see here: link to leaked image.

On a side note, the reaper chaincannon is included in the heavy weapons list. So CSM units have access to it, too. A nice little add-on if you are going to run the heretic 17.

Hmm. Well, that makes Bridages even less inviting, then.

Heretac Reaper sounds interesting. With the bolters rule, everyone’s good at 24” if we don’t have to move.

 Mothman wrote:
So ill need to tweak points when I get the full book but going from what we know ill likely go

detachment 1-battalion emperors children
master of possession (cursed earth + mutated invig)
dark apostle with a dude helper////

20 cultists
10 cultists (might swap to 5 marines)
10 noise marines (2 blastmasters 8 sonic)

3 bikers///

detatchment 2- EC, spearhead (might use devastation battery
sorcerer (presience + delightful agonies)
5 havocs (4 chaincanons)
5 havocs (4 lascanons) (good old sunkillers)
2 obliterators

detachment 3- Flawless host
Daemon prince- 2 talons, wings, elixer, warlord + the 3 attacks on 6s trait and prescience
chaos lord jump pack- thunderhammer //// (eidolon model)

5 Basic terminators with icon
5 chosen with icon + all lightning claws
1 greater possessed

Rhino
at the moment list is 2019 on battlescribe but with the discounts to termies should be fine.

/// are things I might drop or swap out as needed to adjust for points.

plan is prince and the chosen party bus ride up one side, depending on match up ill deploy oblits on the board and just use defensive positions + the return fire command point if im going second. The prince + chosen and greater possessed party bomb will be quite mean if it gets into CC.

Love the list. Just a quick thought as I've been confronted similarly that it might be safer to mix the gattling gun havoks and the lascannon havocs to prevent an opponent from targeting down the bigger threat. Since everything has split fire in 8th so might be better.

 Mothman wrote:
So ill need to tweak points when I get the full book but going from what we know ill likely go

detachment 1-battalion emperors children
master of possession (cursed earth + mutated invig)
dark apostle with a dude helper////

20 cultists
10 cultists (might swap to 5 marines)
10 noise marines (2 blastmasters 8 sonic)

3 bikers///

detatchment 2- EC, spearhead (might use devastation battery
sorcerer (presience + delightful agonies)
5 havocs (4 chaincanons)
5 havocs (4 lascanons) (good old sunkillers)
2 obliterators

detachment 3- Flawless host
Daemon prince- 2 talons, wings, elixer, warlord + the 3 attacks on 6s trait and prescience
chaos lord jump pack- thunderhammer //// (eidolon model)

5 Basic terminators with icon
5 chosen with icon + all lightning claws
1 greater possessed

Rhino
at the moment list is 2019 on battlescribe but with the discounts to termies should be fine.

/// are things I might drop or swap out as needed to adjust for points.

plan is prince and the chosen party bus ride up one side, depending on match up ill deploy oblits on the board and just use defensive positions + the return fire command point if im going second. The prince + chosen and greater possessed party bomb will be quite mean if it gets into CC.

Might be worth swapping out the Chosen for 2 more Greater Possessed. They still fit in the party bus, you lose 6 attacks and re-rolling to wound in CC but you hit better (especially with the DP around), improve S and considerably improve any damage caused by hits that get through. You also gain 5 wounds and everyone gets 5++. Those GPs kick ass.

As to Havocs with mixed loadouts - I think I'd prefer to be able to focus the Punishing Volley strat on one type of unit instead of splitting fire to account for the different weapon types.

 Zid wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
So out of all of this stuff i still don't see an answer to 3 vindicares just shooting our buff units dead and the army falling back to like its always been. Anyone find an answer to the 3 amigos and their chr / -2 to hit while in cover bs?

Deepstriking bloodletters/warp talons to chop them to pieces. Hiding characters behing terrain or a rhino.
Psychic powers that can target characters such as infernal gaze.
Taking big characters on the back of daemon engines/saemon princes that generally don't worry about their str 5 weapons.

They're a pain in the arse but not unplayable.

Deep strike units of 3x flamers, 3d6 -1 ap flamer hits should do it. And its super cheap!

hardly can happen, average 9 hits about 4 wound and vindicare save at 4++ so more of less couple of wounds, then flamers are erased

 blackmage wrote:

 Zid wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
So out of all of this stuff i still don't see an answer to 3 vindicares just shooting our buff units dead and the army falling back to like its always been. Anyone find an answer to the 3 amigos and their chr / -2 to hit while in cover bs?

Deepstriking bloodletters/warp talons to chop them to pieces. Hiding characters behing terrain or a rhino.
Psychic powers that can target characters such as infernal gaze.
Taking big characters on the back of daemon engines/saemon princes that generally don't worry about their str 5 weapons.

They're a pain in the arse but not unplayable.

Deep strike units of 3x flamers, 3d6 -1 ap flamer hits should do it. And its super cheap!

hardly can happen, average 9 hits about 4 wound and vindicare save at 4++ so more of less couple of wounds, then flamers are erased

10.5 hits
Anywhere from 5.25 to 8.75 wounds (from S4 at worst, to S5 +1 Wound at best)
So that's 2.625 at worst, 4.375 at best.

Edit: Imma go to Anydice. Assuming 10 hits, you have the following odds of killing him:

7.81% chance of killing him at S4
21.31% chance of killing him at S5 or +1 Wound
40.92% chance of killing him at S5 and +1 Wound

Apparently one of the Priest chants is VotLW for melee. That's good.

Do we have any idea if the Alpha Legion have lost the -1 to hit at over 12 inches? (And thus been designated to the trash can of the meta).

 blood reaper wrote:
Do we have any idea if the Alpha Legion have lost the -1 to hit at over 12 inches? (And thus been designated to the trash can of the meta).

Shouldn't think so - the other legions have all kept their traits so far. Chaos Cultists no longer qualify for the legion traits, though, as far as we know.

Since lords can take thunderhammers now I'm wondering if we can make a smash captain of our own. Flawless host had potential and even just a Khorne Lord with the fight twice Strategem is a good bet. Thoughts?

 lindsay40k wrote:
> Fallen summoning Vindicares

Please don’t pin y’all hopes - and base y’all near-future purchases - on this shaky loophole. If you’ve already got Fallen and a Vindicare, knock yourself out. But don’t drop a hundred quid on this

> a lucky Vindicare can kill a support character

Luck don’t come into it. Budget a command reroll and killing a 4w cheerleader is his default - and the CP will usually get reimbursed by the Vindicare Stratagem.

‘Lucky’ to a Vindicare is killing a support character AND a smash Lord in the same turn and then breaking even on CP.

I think the maths is seriously off here. I've played against new vindicares a few times and they're not that scary.

If they're shooting at a sorcerer/MOP/DA, not in cover, they're only wounding just over half (.57) of the time. Doing on adverage 3.06 wounds when they do. 1.74 wounds on adverage when they're in the open, 1.4 when in cover and 0 when you're out of line of sight. Obviously a reroll works both ways but you it would only add a little extra extra potency.

I think culexus is much more threatening, especially to a psyker heavy list. Especially with the fight last strat.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 Zid wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
So out of all of this stuff i still don't see an answer to 3 vindicares just shooting our buff units dead and the army falling back to like its always been. Anyone find an answer to the 3 amigos and their chr / -2 to hit while in cover bs?

Deepstriking bloodletters/warp talons to chop them to pieces. Hiding characters behing terrain or a rhino.
Psychic powers that can target characters such as infernal gaze.
Taking big characters on the back of daemon engines/saemon princes that generally don't worry about their str 5 weapons.

They're a pain in the arse but not unplayable.

Deep strike units of 3x flamers, 3d6 -1 ap flamer hits should do it. And its super cheap!

hardly can happen, average 9 hits about 4 wound and vindicare save at 4++ so more of less couple of wounds, then flamers are erased

10.5 hits
Anywhere from 5.25 to 8.75 wounds (from S4 at worst, to S5 +1 Wound at best)
So that's 2.625 at worst, 4.375 at best.

Edit: Imma go to Anydice. Assuming 10 hits, you have the following odds of killing him:

7.81% chance of killing him at S4
21.31% chance of killing him at S5 or +1 Wound
40.92% chance of killing him at S5 and +1 Wound

if you plan to drop also a changecaster you invest lot of point ( and perhaps dont kill anyway the assassin) and im pretty sure against an opponent with opposable thumbs you get nowhere, they aren't good to kill character b4 i dont see any reason why they should kill a character now.

At least get your math right. I won't say it's a GOOD way of handling Vindicares, but there's no reason to fudge the math to make them look worse.

 small_gods wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
> Fallen summoning Vindicares

Please don’t pin y’all hopes - and base y’all near-future purchases - on this shaky loophole. If you’ve already got Fallen and a Vindicare, knock yourself out. But don’t drop a hundred quid on this

> a lucky Vindicare can kill a support character

Luck don’t come into it. Budget a command reroll and killing a 4w cheerleader is his default - and the CP will usually get reimbursed by the Vindicare Stratagem.

‘Lucky’ to a Vindicare is killing a support character AND a smash Lord in the same turn and then breaking even on CP.

I think the maths is seriously off here. I've played against new vindicares a few times and they're not that scary.

If they're shooting at a sorcerer/MOP/DA, not in cover, they're only wounding just over half (.57) of the time. Doing on adverage 3.06 wounds when they do. 1.74 wounds on adverage when they're in the open, 1.4 when in cover and 0 when you're out of line of sight. Obviously a reroll works both ways but you it would only add a little extra extra potency.

I think culexus is much more threatening, especially to a psyker heavy list. Especially with the fight last strat.

vindicare dont care of cover he just ignores, so matter nothing, it hits at 2+ regardless modifiers, wound infantry at 2+ with ap -3 with, no inv saves allowed, wonder how he can wound only half times a sorcerer/mop (INFANTRY) model, about wounds can happen he rolls 1's but more than often you pay 1cp to reroll then is all about his luck with head shot rolls, you can do nothing to avoid it unless you have FNP or a way to ignore/save mortal wounds

5/6 chance of hitting
25/36 chance of wounding
125/216 of doing an unsaved wound

It's not hard math.

 JNAProductions wrote:
At least get your math right. I won't say it's a GOOD way of handling Vindicares, but there's no reason to fudge the math to make them look worse.

did you never heard of screens? how do you ever think you can drop inside 12" bubble of a vindicare?he can sit in a corner with just a small unit screening him, then you will drop too far away to ever have a chance to shoot, is not math is called, skilled opponent. I play too often Ds demons and often my opponent can prevent me to drop where i would like.

Forgot about the cover thing but seriously, I have played a few games and Ahriman on disc has never been killed. Most games I loose one nurgle infantary character after 2-3 rounds of shooting.