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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Which is the point. Aside from suprize robot clown fiesta eldar don't care. So when you are eldar fighting a 'competive' admech list that's the scariest thing you'll race.

Which Mr. Per has pointed out the various depths of in effectualness they can achive.

Edit: and I think dragons a companying that robot threat could cause problems, as your want to eliminate both or else you might find yourself trapped between a taser lance and a robo.

Again though all our best stuff has no trouble killing said units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/28 19:26:19


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I exclusively run Doom/Executioner.

And Doom usually takes a back seat to Smite after turn 1. After that, everything's on top of me and most of my army is dead anyway (thanks 8th edition) that my biggest sources of offense are Smite spam.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





WA

mmimzie wrote:
Which is the point. Aside from suprize robot clown fiesta eldar don't care. So when you are eldar fighting a 'competive' admech list that's the scariest thing you'll race.

Which Mr. Per has pointed out the various depths of in effectualness they can achive.

Edit: and I think dragons a companying that robot threat could cause problems, as your want to eliminate both or else you might find yourself trapped between a taser lance and a robo.

Again though all our best stuff has no trouble killing said units.


The Dragoons have a less than 50% chance of charging after the Deep strike. I'd ignore them and smash the Robots. Shining Spears will do this with ease. Then they can wreck the Dragoons at their leisure.

   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon





USA

Ever Since 2nd Edition Mind War has always been my fave power for the Eldar.

I must say that I have to shelve it when I play 8th. The Fact that it ONLY works vs characters makes it tedious at best and in some games there are no enemy characters in play that you can use it on.

If it could be used vs any model then that would be cool.

 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 DarknessEternal wrote:
I exclusively run Doom/Executioner.

And Doom usually takes a back seat to Smite after turn 1. After that, everything's on top of me and most of my army is dead anyway (thanks 8th edition) that my biggest sources of offense are Smite spam.

Almost never my experience - doom does way more damage than a single smite.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
mmimzie wrote:
Which is the point. Aside from suprize robot clown fiesta eldar don't care. So when you are eldar fighting a 'competive' admech list that's the scariest thing you'll race.

Which Mr. Per has pointed out the various depths of in effectualness they can achive.

Edit: and I think dragons a companying that robot threat could cause problems, as your want to eliminate both or else you might find yourself trapped between a taser lance and a robo.

Again though all our best stuff has no trouble killing said units.


The Dragoons have a less than 50% chance of charging after the Deep strike. I'd ignore them and smash the Robots. Shining Spears will do this with ease. Then they can wreck the Dragoons at their leisure.


Your statement is a little far fetched. 7 shining spears cost the same as 2 Kastellans. (roughly) They do 4.6 hits in shooting which is .92 wounds. If failed on 4+ inv (and not reflected 17% of time) you do 2 damage.

Average losing a bike on overwatch but we will ignore this.

Then 14 attacks in close combat = 9.24 hits =1.8 wounds = 1.5 going through on average after 6+ save. Thats 50/50 on even killing one.

You are assuming a lot in that your shining spears will mop up the kastellans.

***Sorry forgot the twin shuriken shooting too. 18.48 hits = 3.6 wounds = 1.18 wounds.

Thats still 50/50 on a dead kastellan though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 00:36:28


 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

They don't have to mop them up. Simply locking them in combat is enough to cripple them, since they cannot move or fight back. You just need to complete the charge.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Not if one has fists then your losing 2 bikes a turn.

Was just pointing out though that your not just going to delete a Kastellan squad. They are tough suckers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 01:46:48


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Fafnir wrote:
They don't have to mop them up. Simply locking them in combat is enough to cripple them, since they cannot move or fight back. You just need to complete the charge.


It's msotly this. It's really if you can survive the over watch with enough stuff that can then survive a few kastelans attacking. Note if the kastelenans are gonna go double tap mode there is no reason not to just have all the robots touching eachotehr as best they can <.< so even if one model is in range you are facing 3 or 4 kastelans worth of melee attacks coming your way. So you need enough spear then to live the over watch and survive 4 kastelans worth of punches to the face.

As has been states it's not realy the combat or thjings dying that matter you just need stuff that can stay in combat with the kastelan unit after it goes into shooter mode.

However, i posit that the kastelans and the other 1300-1400pts of the admech force could ideally target down any units that could survive the kastelan over watch such that this issue doesn't exist, and seeing as most Eldar out side of shining spears run alot of MSU the only threats to this happening are big packs of shining spears and wave serpents. So the goal is kill all serepents (or deep strike as far from them as possible). Then kill all big shining spear squads. Out side of that the kastelans probably won't be locked in combat as the big bot units overwatch would be to overwelming for pretty much anything else (including also having to contend with 3 or 4 robot melee attacks)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/29 03:11:33


 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

Incognito15 wrote:
Not if one has fists then your losing 2 bikes a turn.

Was just pointing out though that your not just going to delete a Kastellan squad. They are tough suckers.


But fistalens are terrible in their own right, and even worse when mixed with dakkabots. That's 115+ points of dead weight.

And that fistalen is only killing two models a turn if it's using the combat protocol, which then nullifies your dakkabots, so now you've got 220-550 points of dead weight. No matter how you cut it, the fistalen is a terrible investment, and the kastelans are just not a threat. It's far to easy to nullify a 600+ point unit with less than 100 points of models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 03:24:07


 
   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon





USA

Why don't you add Doom to the calculations. There are rarely an important fight of that scale that Doom hasn't been successfully cast.

I'm sure the numbers will in quite a different light.

 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
Made in us
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker





I don’t think his initial calculations took into account the improved strength from laser lances on charge either.
Should be 15 attacks in melee, hitting on 3s for 10 hits, wounding on 5s due to strength 6 v tough 7 for about 3 and a third wounds, or about 6 damage.
Further: why are 4.6 hits of str 6 translating to .98 wounds when you wound on 5s? 1/3 of 4.6 is around 1.5, not .98
Am I missing something?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 05:46:52


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Smart AdMech players are going to castle against any fly-heavy army, so don't count on being able to neutralize the Kastelans in CC that easily.

Also, someone mentioned deep-striking 9x Kastelans in. This is a terrible idea for all of the reasons stated, but also because you can't Binharic Override twice in a turn.
   
Made in au
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator





I think with Doom, the only issue is maximising value. I've tried bursting down big targets, and while they die right quick, I feel like I've almost lost value since only one or two units have had a chance?

Dumb question, but has anyone had any experience with "ambitious" casts rather than simply "kill it deader"? EG, rather than using it to ensure a S8 weapon wounds against a t8 vehicle, targeting a t6/7 vehicle with catapults? Obviously can be mathhammered, and feel free, but interested in practical experiences
   
Made in us
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker





 Puganaut wrote:
Dumb question, but has anyone had any experience with "ambitious" casts rather than simply "kill it deader"? EG, rather than using it to ensure a S8 weapon wounds against a t8 vehicle, targeting a t6/7 vehicle with catapults? Obviously can be mathhammered, and feel free, but interested in practical experiences

Interesting question! Some quick math:
Doom on a 4+ to wound generates a 75% success rate (1- (1/2)(1/2)) versus the raw 50% of needing a 4+
Doom on a 5+ to wound generates a 55% success rate (1- (2/3)(2/3)) versus the raw 33% of needing a 5+

So, in the proposed scenario of having high value shooting and lower value shooting, what you end up dooming is predicated highly on how reliably you need targets removed. If you go through upgrading your lower value fire with doom, you now are looking at success values of 50% and 55%. In other words, your chances of successfully damaging each target are as likely as not doing so. On the other hand, upgrading your high value firepower means you have reasonable confidence in damaging one target, with the other target being less likely to sustain damage. So what's the great equalizer here? Number of shots. Your low value fire is likely high quantity, giving you many trials for your probability to shine through. Your high value fire, however, has fewer shots (often just 1), so we'd ideally like to maximize our probability of success for these because our volume of trials is quite low.

At this point, you can take the probability values above and plug them into a binomial distribution calculator (or do the math by hand if that's your thing) to see what the expectations are like under various quantities of fire and conditions. This will let you see exactly how doom shapes the overall likelihood of your fire achieving desirable results depending on whether you support x brightlances or y shuriken catapults with it.
   
Made in us
Defending Guardian Defender






ryzouken wrote:
 Puganaut wrote:
Dumb question, but has anyone had any experience with "ambitious" casts rather than simply "kill it deader"? EG, rather than using it to ensure a S8 weapon wounds against a t8 vehicle, targeting a t6/7 vehicle with catapults? Obviously can be mathhammered, and feel free, but interested in practical experiences

Interesting question! Some quick math:
Doom on a 4+ to wound generates a 75% success rate (1- (1/2)(1/2)) versus the raw 50% of needing a 4+
Doom on a 5+ to wound generates a 55% success rate (1- (2/3)(2/3)) versus the raw 33% of needing a 5+

So, in the proposed scenario of having high value shooting and lower value shooting, what you end up dooming is predicated highly on how reliably you need targets removed. If you go through upgrading your lower value fire with doom, you now are looking at success values of 50% and 55%. In other words, your chances of successfully damaging each target are as likely as not doing so. On the other hand, upgrading your high value firepower means you have reasonable confidence in damaging one target, with the other target being less likely to sustain damage. So what's the great equalizer here? Number of shots. Your low value fire is likely high quantity, giving you many trials for your probability to shine through. Your high value fire, however, has fewer shots (often just 1), so we'd ideally like to maximize our probability of success for these because our volume of trials is quite low.

At this point, you can take the probability values above and plug them into a binomial distribution calculator (or do the math by hand if that's your thing) to see what the expectations are like under various quantities of fire and conditions. This will let you see exactly how doom shapes the overall likelihood of your fire achieving desirable results depending on whether you support x brightlances or y shuriken catapults with it.


There's an interesting wrinkle that happens with those calculations if you're talking about Shuriken weapons, too!

Guardians, for example, are a great way to benefit from Doom by shooting at higher toughness, because when wounding on a 5+, 50% of your successful wounds will also be bladestorm wounds. When doom is applied, it increases your chances to wound, without decreasing the chance that a successful wound will also be a bladestorm wound.

Take 40 guardian shots: Assume odds that 27 hit on average. Wounding on a 5+, you're looking at ~9w, with ~4.5 of those wounds as bladestorm. With Doom, that goes up to ~15w, of which ~7.5 are bladestorm.

Compare that to wounding on 4's with no doom (50% success rate, so close to the 55% with doom on a 5+), where you'd get ~13.5 total wounds, but only an average of ~4.5 bladestorm wounds.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/29 20:30:01


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





So with the meta starting to define itself a bit more, I was hoping to get everyones thoughts again on the dark reaper exarch.

I find most people believe the tempest launcher to be an auto take, but in most my practice games I've been frustrated by its range.

Ive subsequently ended up using the exarch as ablative wounds, which is a waste holding the tempest launcher.

Appreciate this was debated a little while back, but since our OP sucks, was hoping we could get some more discussion around it.
   
Made in ru
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




Moscow

You said it. Players who want to stay back and use the '48 range do not like Tempest. It compromises the design of the unit. I generally agree with that.

I see many reports where people place DRs on some high tower in a sorta beautiful roleplaying way. In one of them they even got charged turn 1 by flying unit.

Reapers should stay '48 away even if it means ducking in the corner near the end of the table. Or begin in Webway/WS.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/12/29 23:23:00


 
   
Made in au
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator





 Dageran wrote:
ryzouken wrote:
 Puganaut wrote:
Dumb question, but has anyone had any experience with "ambitious" casts rather than simply "kill it deader"? EG, rather than using it to ensure a S8 weapon wounds against a t8 vehicle, targeting a t6/7 vehicle with catapults? Obviously can be mathhammered, and feel free, but interested in practical experiences

Interesting question! Some quick math:
Doom on a 4+ to wound generates a 75% success rate (1- (1/2)(1/2)) versus the raw 50% of needing a 4+
Doom on a 5+ to wound generates a 55% success rate (1- (2/3)(2/3)) versus the raw 33% of needing a 5+

So, in the proposed scenario of having high value shooting and lower value shooting, what you end up dooming is predicated highly on how reliably you need targets removed. If you go through upgrading your lower value fire with doom, you now are looking at success values of 50% and 55%. In other words, your chances of successfully damaging each target are as likely as not doing so. On the other hand, upgrading your high value firepower means you have reasonable confidence in damaging one target, with the other target being less likely to sustain damage. So what's the great equalizer here? Number of shots. Your low value fire is likely high quantity, giving you many trials for your probability to shine through. Your high value fire, however, has fewer shots (often just 1), so we'd ideally like to maximize our probability of success for these because our volume of trials is quite low.

At this point, you can take the probability values above and plug them into a binomial distribution calculator (or do the math by hand if that's your thing) to see what the expectations are like under various quantities of fire and conditions. This will let you see exactly how doom shapes the overall likelihood of your fire achieving desirable results depending on whether you support x brightlances or y shuriken catapults with it.


There's an interesting wrinkle that happens with those calculations if you're talking about Shuriken weapons, too!

Guardians, for example, are a great way to benefit from Doom by shooting at higher toughness, because when wounding on a 5+, 50% of your successful wounds will also be bladestorm wounds. When doom is applied, it increases your chances to wound, without decreasing the chance that a successful wound will also be a bladestorm wound.

Take 40 guardian shots: Assume odds that 27 hit on average. Wounding on a 5+, you're looking at ~9w, with ~4.5 of those wounds as bladestorm. With Doom, that goes up to ~15w, of which ~7.5 are bladestorm.

Compare that to wounding on 4's with no doom (50% success rate, so close to the 55% with doom on a 5+), where you'd get ~13.5 total wounds, but only an average of ~4.5 bladestorm wounds.


Cheers guys! Pretty interesting stuff, I'll be sure to give it a go. My personal take away is to just abuse doom as much as possible, keeping in mind it'll improve to wound by about 25% ish. I guess the toss up is that if your entire army is firing on a doom target, the entire army has effectively improved shooting by that margin vs no doom, however that's not always achievable.

I think 2 farseers may be a sweet spot, and focussing the targets. Killing a pair of priority targets a turn is usually pretty devastating, EG two russes, a big blob, etc etc. 3 for consistency at 2000+ might also be a consideration. Cheers all!
   
Made in gb
Drone without a Controller



UK - Sheffield

Ive been running dark reapers quite a bit and my experience may not be good as some but i find the big squad which you webway in performs better either with a standard launcher or the ELM for the mortal wound stratagem. The range on the tempest launcher lets it down and you can keep out of range of most weapons with fire and fade.

I think running minimum squads with tempest launcher is the way forward, i only have 10 reapers at the moment and im reluctant to buy more until March comes around due to the nerf. Im going to proxy next game and give it a go with 2 min squads.

   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon





USA

For those of you who suggest that the dark reaper exarch are ablative wounds like a Devestator unit with some bolter marines.

You may want to choose the Shuriken Cannon as his weapon. If your going to kill him it is only a 15 point model at that point rather than a 27 or 30 point or even more.

 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





ryzouken wrote:
I don’t think his initial calculations took into account the improved strength from laser lances on charge either.
Should be 15 attacks in melee, hitting on 3s for 10 hits, wounding on 5s due to strength 6 v tough 7 for about 3 and a third wounds, or about 6 damage.
Further: why are 4.6 hits of str 6 translating to .98 wounds when you wound on 5s? 1/3 of 4.6 is around 1.5, not .98
Am I missing something?


Saves.


Besides dark reapers (i dont own any atm and they are back ordered) what are our go to anti tank? Lot of astra mil in my area and it gets costly when im paying for wave serpents and a fire dragon or wraithguard. So is crimson hunter or fire prims our best? “Deep striking” war walkers?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 04:51:09


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




You guys on the doom math... It's sinple.

It increases yoyr damage by yoyr miss chance. So if you wound on a 4+ Then that means you boost your average damage by 50% competitively. Comparatively if you would on a 5+ you increase the damage out put by 66% on average.

Interestingly tgis effect makes it so guardians will actualy out damage your basic dark reaper when firing at a leman russ when it is under the effects of doom. Which I think is why dark reapers are just alittle meh to me.


Either way the long and short is that to know if you'd rather doom over smite is look at your doom target and see if the target has 12+ wounds. As if you would normally do 8 woulda on a 4+ you'll instead do 12 wounds with doom. Which is 4 more wounds. A reminds that your basic smite averages 1.75 damage when you factor in factor in the chance to get it off plud the chance of getting a d6 smite.


So when you look at the 50% chance to get doom off that would be an average of 2 damage from your doom if your target has 12 wounds and you need 4+ to do wounds.. this gets better the worse your chance to wound. So if you need 5s or 6s then doom becomes more attractive and accordingly you can more likely use doom. This can get better if you are using shurican weapons as fishing for 6s is very nice, and increase the effect of doom.

Also smite from a farseer gets pretty spicy. As you can reroll dice to try to get that big smitw. If smite is your 2nd spell and you roll a 4 and something else, you can reroll the other die to try to super charge the smite.

Tldr: doom you really mainly just use on big units or units with lots of wounds otherwise throw down your smite.
   
Made in us
Grey Knight Psionic Stormraven Pilot




Incognito15 wrote:



Besides dark reapers (i dont own any atm and they are back ordered) what are our go to anti tank? Lot of astra mil in my area and it gets costly when im paying for wave serpents and a fire dragon or wraithguard. So is crimson hunter or fire prims our best? “Deep striking” war walkers?


If you're looking for something to delete LR tanks reliably? Alaitoc Spearhead detachment of 3x Fire Prisms will see ya right.

I like Prisms, Hemlocks or Wraithguard with scythes, everything else is generally Str 8 which is too unreliable for my tastes (I often fight L Russ tanks). Prisms thanks to linked fire and the others thanks to lol-D weapons.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Incognito15 wrote:
ryzouken wrote:
I don’t think his initial calculations took into account the improved strength from laser lances on charge either.
Should be 15 attacks in melee, hitting on 3s for 10 hits, wounding on 5s due to strength 6 v tough 7 for about 3 and a third wounds, or about 6 damage.
Further: why are 4.6 hits of str 6 translating to .98 wounds when you wound on 5s? 1/3 of 4.6 is around 1.5, not .98
Am I missing something?


Saves.


Besides dark reapers (i dont own any atm and they are back ordered) what are our go to anti tank? Lot of astra mil in my area and it gets costly when im paying for wave serpents and a fire dragon or wraithguard. So is crimson hunter or fire prims our best? “Deep striking” war walkers?


A squad oh shin8ng spears with a quicken warlock or a second squad with saim-hann stratagem will see you in and out the other side of basicly any target. Hecl they'll do more damage in the shooting phase than the reapers will to a leman russ <. <
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Striking Scorpion






 Puganaut wrote:
 Dageran wrote:
ryzouken wrote:
 Puganaut wrote:
Dumb question, but has anyone had any experience with "ambitious" casts rather than simply "kill it deader"? EG, rather than using it to ensure a S8 weapon wounds against a t8 vehicle, targeting a t6/7 vehicle with catapults? Obviously can be mathhammered, and feel free, but interested in practical experiences

Interesting question! Some quick math:
Doom on a 4+ to wound generates a 75% success rate (1- (1/2)(1/2)) versus the raw 50% of needing a 4+
Doom on a 5+ to wound generates a 55% success rate (1- (2/3)(2/3)) versus the raw 33% of needing a 5+

So, in the proposed scenario of having high value shooting and lower value shooting, what you end up dooming is predicated highly on how reliably you need targets removed. If you go through upgrading your lower value fire with doom, you now are looking at success values of 50% and 55%. In other words, your chances of successfully damaging each target are as likely as not doing so. On the other hand, upgrading your high value firepower means you have reasonable confidence in damaging one target, with the other target being less likely to sustain damage. So what's the great equalizer here? Number of shots. Your low value fire is likely high quantity, giving you many trials for your probability to shine through. Your high value fire, however, has fewer shots (often just 1), so we'd ideally like to maximize our probability of success for these because our volume of trials is quite low.

At this point, you can take the probability values above and plug them into a binomial distribution calculator (or do the math by hand if that's your thing) to see what the expectations are like under various quantities of fire and conditions. This will let you see exactly how doom shapes the overall likelihood of your fire achieving desirable results depending on whether you support x brightlances or y shuriken catapults with it.


There's an interesting wrinkle that happens with those calculations if you're talking about Shuriken weapons, too!

Guardians, for example, are a great way to benefit from Doom by shooting at higher toughness, because when wounding on a 5+, 50% of your successful wounds will also be bladestorm wounds. When doom is applied, it increases your chances to wound, without decreasing the chance that a successful wound will also be a bladestorm wound.

Take 40 guardian shots: Assume odds that 27 hit on average. Wounding on a 5+, you're looking at ~9w, with ~4.5 of those wounds as bladestorm. With Doom, that goes up to ~15w, of which ~7.5 are bladestorm.

Compare that to wounding on 4's with no doom (50% success rate, so close to the 55% with doom on a 5+), where you'd get ~13.5 total wounds, but only an average of ~4.5 bladestorm wounds.


Cheers guys! Pretty interesting stuff, I'll be sure to give it a go. My personal take away is to just abuse doom as much as possible, keeping in mind it'll improve to wound by about 25% ish. I guess the toss up is that if your entire army is firing on a doom target, the entire army has effectively improved shooting by that margin vs no doom, however that's not always achievable.

I think 2 farseers may be a sweet spot, and focussing the targets. Killing a pair of priority targets a turn is usually pretty devastating, EG two russes, a big blob, etc etc. 3 for consistency at 2000+ might also be a consideration. Cheers all!


You can only use once Doom per turn, no one will be playing non matched play that much so considering being able to cast more than one of each power is not worth it

~400pts Asuryani painted new colour scheme
~7500pts Asuryani assembled some with old colour scheme
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Korlandril wrote:


You can only use once Doom per turn, no one will be playing non matched play that much so considering being able to cast more than one of each power is not worth it


I agree you really just want one farseer.

Smite+executioner on a farseer is cost effective when compared to just about any unit against just about any targets.

From there doom can be more cost effective than smite against stuff with ~12 wounds if your weapons would on a 4+ or worse. (If you'd normally so I wounds tgen refilling a 4+ will get you to 12. Which is like doing 4 damage 58% of the time)

Guide comparatively is pretty poor as most likely you'll have an autarch who does that effect more cost effectively if it hits two units, or way better if the autarch effect 3 or more units. Also guide in most situations is only effecting a 3+ to hit which is only a 33% increase in damage which meaans for guide to be better than a smite nornally you need a target that has 16 wounds or more. So all of those situations kind of make guide normally just not worth white.

Then you have fortune which could be good on super big units or units with lots wounds. It's like an opposite doom in that you won't be casting every turn as you might get more millage from a smite. Even more so fortune might mean your opponent will just use thier fire power else where, which can be good for that unit but your opponents damage per turn won't be effected.

The other spells are super meh or need to much support., and the farseers bread and butter spells over 5 turns of play will likely be execute and smite as doom falls off in usefulness in later turns.
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

For what it's worth, Guide is really good on Shadow Spectres, just because it nets the more shots. It'll almost double their damage output with the concentrated beam. Not worth worrying about for top level tournament builds, since Spectres are too expensive to have a place at that table, but worth considering if you are running them anyway, assuming you plan on making use of the concentrated beam more than the diffuse.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Fafnir wrote:
For what it's worth, Guide is really good on Shadow Spectres, just because it nets the more shots. It'll almost double their damage output with the concentrated beam. Not worth worrying about for top level tournament builds, since Spectres are too expensive to have a place at that table, but worth considering if you are running them anyway, assuming you plan on making use of the concentrated beam more than the diffuse.


Nice call. If it's almost doubling there damage out put. You dont think a big squad with guide would be good??


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Nah it doesnt help that much. The coherent part doesn't really have very good targets. So there is no real situations where you'd use them over other stuff even with that cool guide thing you pointed out :( that sucks.

(It gets beat out by windriders for kill in marines, and dark reapers for killing russ. Which is consider the bare minimum for killing those specific targets)

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/30 19:59:41


 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

I've run a 10 man squad with farseer support. They're devastating against weaker players and lists, but against opponents who start building for optimization, they just have too much difficulty making back their cost. They have to kill so much just to break even, and you can't really count on that against a good opponent. And because they (and a supporting seer) take up so much of your army now, you can't really afford to have them underperform.
   
 
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