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ShumaGorath wrote:That road goes two ways, imagine the tyranid player who has sunk 4-5 hundred dollars into his army and gets to put it in a box in the attic because a 200 dollar flavor of the month super army with blatantly over the top rules makes it thoroughly unplayable (moreso than even wolves or IG had done). Ditto for daemons. Ditty for Dark eldar (a new codex) Ditto for blood angels (a new codex). Ditto for Dark angels. Ditto for Chaos. Ditto for Orks. Hell, necrons sit on that list too (also a new codex).

So yeah, an unfun over the top army with bad fluff thats ludicrously popular because its cheap easy and powerful ruins the game for just about half the games other armies. The hate is unfortunate and in most cases it's not the fault of the GK player, but the hate is justified. It's an army that is bad for the game at large, and it is that in a highly visible way.

I would like to know where you are getting your data from.

Some daemons builds have a tough time with some GK builds. That's for sure.

Dark eldar is paper to GKs rock, but they are scissors to more armies paper. Some armies have a really tough time against Dark Eldar. DE also has one of the highest learning curves imo, so you shouldn't be surprised that people aren't running out to pick them up.
There's more than one build of Blood angels. DoA has never been a top tournament build. Also, your statement that a squad of DCAs shuts down the whole army is ridiculous. An entire army of jump packs should be able to out maneuver DCAs. In addition, they are a prime target for fear of the darkness.

DA have one viable tournament build. Deathwing. They are one of the hardest armies for GK to beat due to the lack of low ap shooting and the availability of a board wide hood.

Chaos is an old and busted codex. Some experienced generals are able to pull off wins with this, but they are at a disadvantage to almost every newer army. Their units are too expensive in the current meta and they cannot bring the amount of firepower to the table that newer armies are. DE smashes Chaos far worse than GK could hope to.

BW orks are still really good against GK. Kan wall less so. I've never played against green tide, but it seems like a bad matchup.

Necrons don't even have proven builds yet. People are still tinkering with things in the codex. I personally have not lost to them, but that's anecdotal evidence at best.

So really, where are you getting your information from? Are you just nerd raging against someone who beat your pretty sanguinary guard army? You really haven't been able to provide any evidence in 40 pages of this thread. All you do is give personal opinions and rage against people who are offering constructive information.
Maybe people in your local meta are really good with draigowing armies. No one plays that where I live. Paladins in a mixed list are an excellent support unit. Paladins in a draigowing list are easily brought down by a tac list. Hell, a Vanilla marine Vulkan list should be able to wipe a paladin squad from the board in 1 or two turns. As well as a good chaos list.

pretre wrote:
Excellent memory and tournament ace! It gets better and better.

Occam's Razor. Either you are a previously unknown tournament ace that completely sweeps local RTTs without losing or there is a bit of wiggle in the actual facts.

Either way, your tournament record and other characteristics are off topic. Individual people's tournament records in general are pretty irrelevant. As I said earlier, we need to look at large groups of results to make any kind of assumptions.

Tomb King wrote:

I wont jump on the personal attacks here and we should probably mitigate further comments and just agree the data is unsupported. However, you comment that some of those wins are 3+ years old and your posting them for viability in a Grey Knights thread which haven't been out for even a year yet. Ide say those statistics are no longer relevant to the current meta.

Sorry, my comment was in reply to this

but seriously, you need to just accept what is blindingly obvious and if your so bothered about people thinking your only winning because you rolled GKs, go play Tau.

Which looking back, didnt quote properly. I wasnt trying to waggle my dick around the internet.

Eidolon wrote:

pretre wrote:
Excellent memory and tournament ace! It gets better and better.

Occam's Razor. Either you are a previously unknown tournament ace that completely sweeps local RTTs without losing or there is a bit of wiggle in the actual facts.

Either way, your tournament record and other characteristics are off topic. Individual people's tournament records in general are pretty irrelevant. As I said earlier, we need to look at large groups of results to make any kind of assumptions.

Tomb King wrote:

I wont jump on the personal attacks here and we should probably mitigate further comments and just agree the data is unsupported. However, you comment that some of those wins are 3+ years old and your posting them for viability in a Grey Knights thread which haven't been out for even a year yet. Ide say those statistics are no longer relevant to the current meta.

Sorry, my comment was in reply to this

but seriously, you need to just accept what is blindingly obvious and if your so bothered about people thinking your only winning because you rolled GKs, go play Tau.

Which looking back, didnt quote properly. I wasnt trying to waggle my dick around the internet.

Was tempted to post a reference to a cite about that but would be better off not banned for it regardless of how funny it would be.

Saying that any army is viable if you have a good general isnt really a solid thing to say if some armies dont need a good general to win. While those other armies require it.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Show me the tau player that can beat close combat BAs, Orks, tyranids, Space wolves, Dark Eldar, or Daemons without extreme luck. I will then show you someone that doesn't exist.

For the purposes of this topic, I don't really need to.

Just the fact that they're able to give the GK's a harder time than most is enough to debunk this "hyperbole" that GK's are the most OP codex in a decade.

Eidolon wrote:

Heres something for you guys, my list of things in the gk book that might actually be 'overpowered'

halberds
psycho and rad nades, especially that they work defensively
fortitude on acolyte transports.

this is about it.

Halberds = Mark of Slaanesh x2 for the same cost. At least you do consider this to be game-breakingly dumb.

Psychos = most broken thing in the entire game imho...

Rads are only stupid because they effect the instant death threshold. If they worked for example making a space marine T3(4), then they'd be very annoying, but all those T4 multi-wound models wouldn't be insta-poop'ed and relegated to the display shelf.

Fortitude = dumb on any vehicle when it only costs a 3rd of what other armies pay for a worse effect!!! Oh sure, against what, 6 armies it can be countered? Too bad for Orks, Chaos Marines, Daemons, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Black Templars, IG, Tau & Tyranids.


You forgot to add;
Warp Quake = the ultiment -you to Daemon players. And don't start that "well strikes/intercepters suck in tounaments so no one take them" crap. Almost every fething game I've played vs GK's has had at least one 10-man squad of a warp quake capable squad. Strikes are a good way to get an additional cheap psycannon and/or psyback onto the table and just leave camping on objectives. Intercepters provide speed and are amazing alongside a Draigowing build.
When combat squad'ed, that's almost half the table I can't use as an entry point... 30 of those guys means I can't actually deploy, it's just auto-misshap & a 3rd of my army auto-dies without any kind of counter to stop it.

'Winning' Flame = auto-win in assaults vs most hordes. Outside of mass infantry IG, hordes are almost all assault based in their use. Not much fun for the poor ork or tyranid player to watch half their squad go up in smoke, then lose another handfull of models before *finally* being able to something.

Hammerhand doubling Strength after other modifyers like 2xS from daemonhammers. Again, simply a case of GK's getting to ignore one of the game's core rules for absolutely no reason. Most other armies either need multiple bonuses or else simply can't reach S10 in assaults. GK's get it for basically 'free' because??!

I think at the end of the day how you answer this question comes down to what you consider OP to mean. I think there are several definitions and which you prescribe to is a matter of opinion. IMO they are over powered and I think so under several definition of OP.

1) tournament results, the definition being GK are only OP if they dominate the tournament circut. So far they have doen well but have not yet dominated the tournament circut. It doesn't surprise me that they haven't dominate the tournamnet scene even though I think they have put in really respectable results. At the end of the day the top players take top lists from several different codexs and everyone will get a shot at wining because of scoring systems. However the telling sign is that GK don't ever finish at the bottom of the standings. This IMO shows them to be OP because it means that the codex is good enough that bad players with bad lists do better than bad players with bad lists from other codexs when if they were balanced they should have their fair share of last places which they don't.

2) GK are OP/broken ibecause they can auto win against some other codex. No other codex save GK can pretty much auto win against another codex. A GK player can build a list so that a deamon player will lose no matter what, they can litteraly stop them from showing up on the board. That's rediculous and no other codex can do that to any other codex, not BA, not SW, not IG.

3) GK are OP because they can list build against any other codex and wipe the floor with them. If you had two players of equal skill knowing they were going to play eachother and design their list accordingly GK would win every time. Obviously Deamons v gk is the easiest example but it's true with the other codexs as well. Playing DE? max out on Rifflemen dreads and psybolts, playing orks, take blenty of purifying flame, taking IG make out on psycannons. playing SW or BA hello paladin deathstars, ect. Now other armies can list build as well but not to the same effect. A SM player preparing for orks will mak out on flamers but that comes that the expens of melta's and now ork armour will be more effective, I could max out on ranged fire power against DE but if the player makes his cover saves they will rock my in CC ect. Only GK can tailor build without exposing some weakness to the other side thus GK are OP.

4) GK are OP because they are undercosted. At the end of the day generaly GK get to pring a similar amount of marines to the table at each point level to the other MEQ (with the exception of their very low model count builds). but they get psycannons, psflemen dreads, and ability to ignor shaken/stunded results on all their vehicles, two psycic powers for each of their squads (both usually being very powerful psycic powers), 24in assault 2 shooting, an extra CC attack and force weapons so all multi wound high toughness creaters are nuetralized, and armour saves are all ignored. That's pretty rediculous. Also even their low modle count army still but out the killing power/ survivability of the higher count builds. A 10 man palidin squad brings 40 wounds to the table.

5) GK are overpowerd because some of their most competative builds have a huge buil in advantage in a 3rd of the games. Bringing 5-8 kill points to a game and still puting out the killing power of draigowing is pretty unfair. This is especialy true against armies like IG and DE which really can't get their KP numbers down.

Some daemons builds have a tough time with some GK builds. That's for sure.

Some..?

Dark eldar is paper to GKs rock, but they are scissors to more armies paper. Some armies have a really tough time against Dark Eldar. DE also has one of the highest learning curves imo, so you shouldn't be surprised that people aren't running out to pick them up.

Especially since their rock is a significant number of entries in most tournaments.

There's more than one build of Blood angels. DoA has never been a top tournament build. Also, your statement that a squad of DCAs shuts down the whole army is ridiculous. An entire army of jump packs should be able to out maneuver DCAs. In addition, they are a prime target for fear of the darkness.

It's hard to outmaneuver something that's being used to countercharge. It's not like they have any reason to come get you. You're going to them.

DA have one viable tournament build. Deathwing. They are one of the hardest armies for GK to beat due to the lack of low ap shooting and the availability of a board wide hood.

And they fold like paper the moment they get into actual combat with some halberds. If it's a straight up fight between MSU GK hench and DW i'm gonna give it to the henchmen. The angels can't bring the right level of anti armor firepower and it's not particularly difficult to simply torrent them all to death.

Chaos is an old and busted codex. Some experienced generals are able to pull off wins with this, but they are at a disadvantage to almost every newer army. Their units are too expensive in the current meta and they cannot bring the amount of firepower to the table that newer armies are. DE smashes Chaos far worse than GK could hope to.

If they're getting tabled I don't think it really matters what turn it happens on.

BW orks are still really good against GK. Kan wall less so. I've never played against green tide, but it seems like a bad matchup.

Cool, so theres one expensive variant list that can have even odds of beating GKs. I smell a trend here.

So really, where are you getting your information from? Are you just nerd raging against someone who beat your pretty sanguinary guard army?

I run vanilla marines. I'm just looking at tourney reports and running the numbers. Where are you getting yours?

You really haven't been able to provide any evidence in 40 pages of this thread.

Evidence for what?

All you do is give personal opinions and rage against people who are offering constructive information.

I haven't seen much of that here. Maybe my standards are higher than yours though, who knows.

Maybe people in your local meta are really good with draigowing armies.

They're actually pretty poor. I've managed to beat them with vanilla marines about half the time, but thats only when they basically give me the game on a silver platter. The real thing keeping them down here is the local mech IG player.

No one plays that where I live. Paladins in a mixed list are an excellent support unit. Paladins in a draigowing list are easily brought down by a tac list.

I'm glad you're sure of something that basically everyone in near 50 pages has said is false directly after stating that you had no personal experience in doing the thing you were sure of.

Hell, a Vanilla marine Vulkan list should be able to wipe a paladin squad from the board in 1 or two turns. As well as a good chaos list.

lolnope,jpg


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jy2 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Show me the tau player that can beat close combat BAs, Orks, tyranids, Space wolves, Dark Eldar, or Daemons without extreme luck. I will then show you someone that doesn't exist.

For the purposes of this topic, I don't really need to.

Just the fact that they're able to give the GK's a harder time than most is enough to debunk this "hyperbole" that GK's are the most OP codex in a decade.

I don't think you people understand how logic or evidence works.

There is an army composed entirely of I6 force weapons though

Okay, stop right there, do some math on how much per model you're going to be spending with everyone with a halberd. With PAGK you're looking at cost nearing that of terminators.


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thus any power armor based assault army is relegated into the second tier by default.

Um, no. First of all they have 1 attack, second of all, they're expensive so the non GK has less they need to kill, third this advantage is only in CC, and fourth they lack an real anti tank (that's tank, not AFV, OR IFV) past 24". One cannot weigh armies without considering everything they will bring. For instance, though it may be short range, a vindicator will make grey knights have a very bad day.


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no army should be able to take 2 wound terminators as troops

Oh boo hoo, you have what? 15 models you need to kill to wipe your enemy off the table, maybe in a land raider, all of which are ID'ed by meltas, I've seen IG armies that would laugh at paladins, same goes for tau,

gendoikari87 wrote:

There is an army composed entirely of I6 force weapons though

Okay, stop right there, do some math on how much per model you're going to be spending with everyone with a halberd. With PAGK you're looking at cost nearing that of terminators.

Like half the book switches to halberds for free including all the most commonly used choices. PAGK consists of purifiers, unless I'm remembering this wrong (I certainly could be) they don't pay a dime.

, no army should be able to freely beat hordes.

Okay, yeah purifiers are a little broken, but they can't deep strike, and are STOOPID expensive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

There is an army composed entirely of I6 force weapons though

Okay, stop right there, do some math on how much per model you're going to be spending with everyone with a halberd. With PAGK you're looking at cost nearing that of terminators.

Like half the book switches to halberds for free including all the most commonly used choices. PAGK consists of purifiers, unless I'm remembering this wrong (I certainly could be) they don't pay a dime.

You are remembering wrong, they get them for 2pts. bringing them to 26pts each, that's in power armor. Space wolves get terminators for not much more. So yeah, definitely not half the army.

and terminators get them for free because they're already 40 points a piece, the standard terminator in other armies comes with a power fist, these come only with at most a str 5 force weapon. the force part coming into play only on creatures with T greater than 4.

You are remembering wrong, they get them for 2pts. bringing them to 26pts each, that's in power armor. Space wolves get terminators for not much more. So yeah, definitely not half the army.

I don't think two points is particularly steep. The blood angel player is going to be paying a decent amount more for sanguine priests than the GK army is going to be paying for the force halberds and hammers. One of them trumps the other by default.

and terminators get them for free because they're already 40 points a piece, the standard terminator in other armies comes with a power fist, these come only with at most a str 5 force weapon.

A strength 5 force weapon, a 4+ save in combat, frag and krak, and the aegis. Regular terminators aren't particularly great in the GK book though. Its why you see pallys instead. That said, the basic force weapon is better than a powerfist once a libby is in there.

Oh boo hoo, you have what? 15 models you need to kill to wipe your enemy off the table, maybe in a land raider, all of which are ID'ed by meltas, I've seen IG armies that would laugh at paladins, same goes for tau,

And I've seen seven of the games armies cry and gnash their teeth. IG can beat a lot of things. IG is also overpowered and theres never been a whole lot of butthurt when people claim that one. Mech IG are the perfect counter to GKs. They have little they can do to respond to it. They're also singularly unique and do what they do in a way that no other army can copy. If this game was composed entirely of IG and GKs than you'd be right. Palladin troops wouldn't ridiculous.

As it is they are.

Why even have troops in this game at all when arguably the toughest and most elite unit in the game is a troop? A form of unit thats supposed to represent bread and butter line infantry and which has a mission structure based around that concept. You might as well not have a force org chart when an army can effectively ignore it entirely (which the GKs can).

I don't think two points is particularly steep.

.... on a model that's already 24pts. Context helps here. You are basically paying for two marines almost once you factor in heavy weapons, which are much closer range.

A strength 5 force weapon

Str 4 Force weapon, or a str 5 POWER weapon. Choose one, because if you want both you've gotta pay big time for it.

That said, the basic force weapon is better than a powerfist once a libby is in there.

Yeah because every unit will have a libby in it. Hell lets assume you COULD put a libby in every unit. The SM player will simply tar pit your ass and move onto the objective with the extra two squads he has for each of your units.

Mech IG are the perfect counter to GKs. They have little they can do to respond to it.

oh so now they're not "THE OMG HAXXORS"? Because there's lists and armies taht do better against some and worst against others, so that there is one IG list that pwns grey knights isn't an argument either way. And ANY army in the game can come up with a counter for paladins, I dare you to name one that cannot.

They're also singularly unique and do what they do in a way that no other army can copy.

yes, because nob bikers TOTALLY can't do this.

A form of unit thats supposed to represent bread and butter line infantry

Hmmmm.... what was the grey knights unique fluff about, something about them being the most bad ass melon-fethers in the whole imperium? (even though that's bs, the biggest bad asses in the imperium are the high ranking secutors of the adeptus mechanicus.)

.... on a model that's already 24pts. Context helps here. You are basically paying for two marines almost once you factor in heavy weapons, which are much closer range.

Two gray hunters, not quite two tac marines which come in at 17 a piece before upgrades (170/10). Thats kind of an aside though, it's not a direct comparison. Purifiers don't stand up to shooting as well as comparable MEQ units. They're more valuable and in most situations significantly more capable.

Str 4 Force weapon, or a str 5 POWER weapon. Choose one, because if you want both you've gotta pay big time for it.

Well you're buying an HQ anyway, why not toss him in and have both? This is one of those silly little false assumptions. It's unlikely that an independent character won't be accompanying these terms in most situations.

Yeah because every unit will have a libby in it. Hell lets assume you COULD put a libby in every unit. The SM player will simply tar pit your ass and move onto the objective with the extra two squads he has for each of your units.

What kind of wacky unicorn planet do you live on where SMs can tarpit a GK deathstar?

oh so now they're not "THE OMG HAXXORS"? Because there's lists and armies taht do better against some and worst against others, so that there is one IG list that pwns grey knights isn't an argument either way. And ANY army in the game can come up with a counter for paladins, I dare you to name one that cannot.

Tyranids.

yes, because nob bikers TOTALLY can't do this.

Nob bikers can not do av12+ mech wall with voluminous long range firepower. Correct.

Hmmmm.... what was the grey knights unique fluff about, something about them being the most bad ass melon-fethers in the whole imperium?

And asdrubael vect is like 40 thousand years old. The chaos gods can eat planets. The necrons have a machine that can blow up any star in the galaxy anywhere at any time. The imperial fists have a death star. The tyranids outnumber the stars. Everyones like that.

One interesting note is that this thread looks a lot better if you put Shuma and other aggressive and wrong-headed players on ignore. Realistically speaking, if someone thinks that Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Space Marines, and Necrons are all nonviable armies there's not really a whole lot you can do for them other than acknowledge their opinion and move on. Once you screen out stuff like that, the discussion here becomes a lot more helpful.

ShumaGorath wrote:

oh so now they're not "THE OMG HAXXORS"? Because there's lists and armies taht do better against some and worst against others, so that there is one IG list that pwns grey knights isn't an argument either way. And ANY army in the game can come up with a counter for paladins, I dare you to name one that cannot.

Tyranids.

Hiveguard, allmost every nid player in a competitive list fields the full complement of 3x3

18 str 8 bs 4 shots that don't need LOS....

12 hits...10 wounds...2 dead pallies per turn. And before you say it, you can't always plug the wound onto draigo. you can't choose who gets to fail their save.

Seems good to me!

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

oh so now they're not "THE OMG HAXXORS"? Because there's lists and armies taht do better against some and worst against others, so that there is one IG list that pwns grey knights isn't an argument either way. And ANY army in the game can come up with a counter for paladins, I dare you to name one that cannot.

Tyranids.

Hiveguard, allmost every nid player in a competitive list fields the full complement of 3x3

18 str 8 bs 4 shots that don't need LOS....

12 hits...10 wounds...2 dead pallies per turn. And before you say it, you can't always plug the wound onto draigo. you can't choose who gets to fail their save.

Seems good to me!

You'll lose every one of them before doing much damage to the pallies. They can shoot back and will cause casualties much more quickly.

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

oh so now they're not "THE OMG HAXXORS"? Because there's lists and armies taht do better against some and worst against others, so that there is one IG list that pwns grey knights isn't an argument either way. And ANY army in the game can come up with a counter for paladins, I dare you to name one that cannot.

Tyranids.

Hiveguard, allmost every nid player in a competitive list fields the full complement of 3x3

18 str 8 bs 4 shots that don't need LOS....

12 hits...10 wounds...2 dead pallies per turn. And before you say it, you can't always plug the wound onto draigo. you can't choose who gets to fail their save.

Seems good to me!

Doom can also hurt the 10 man blocks as well if you use the cover and his dp to block the pallys from him. Then they have to suffer through his stuff for a turn or so at least. I mean unless they want to fully change direction which isnt easy walking. Even if he knocks a wound off of half the pallys Id think hes earned his pts.

ShumaGorath wrote:

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

oh so now they're not "THE OMG HAXXORS"? Because there's lists and armies taht do better against some and worst against others, so that there is one IG list that pwns grey knights isn't an argument either way. And ANY army in the game can come up with a counter for paladins, I dare you to name one that cannot.

Tyranids.

Hiveguard, allmost every nid player in a competitive list fields the full complement of 3x3

18 str 8 bs 4 shots that don't need LOS....

12 hits...10 wounds...2 dead pallies per turn. And before you say it, you can't always plug the wound onto draigo. you can't choose who gets to fail their save.

Seems good to me!

You'll lose every one of them before doing much damage to the pallies. They can shoot back and will cause casualties much more quickly.

So your response is "nuh uh"?

Seriously dude, you have to see reason at some point.

1) They don't need LOS. If you play with decent terrain, they can hide out of LOS of the paladins.
2) They can get FNP from tervigons, and in general, are T6, 2 wound models with a 3+ save. Storm bolters don't take that down too easily, and neither do psycannons.

Also, 9 hive guard is 450 points, your mystical paladin unit is 1200!

Draigo wrote:

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

oh so now they're not "THE OMG HAXXORS"? Because there's lists and armies taht do better against some and worst against others, so that there is one IG list that pwns grey knights isn't an argument either way. And ANY army in the game can come up with a counter for paladins, I dare you to name one that cannot.

Tyranids.

Hiveguard, allmost every nid player in a competitive list fields the full complement of 3x3

18 str 8 bs 4 shots that don't need LOS....

12 hits...10 wounds...2 dead pallies per turn. And before you say it, you can't always plug the wound onto draigo. you can't choose who gets to fail their save.

Seems good to me!

Doom can also hurt the 10 man blocks as well if you use the cover and his dp to block the pallys from him. Then they have to suffer through his stuff for a turn or so at least. I mean unless they want to fully change direction which isnt easy walking. Even if he knocks a wound off of half the pallys Id think hes earned his pts.

Statistically he's likely to do .5 wounds though. One total in two rounds. He can vaporize the entire squad before they can do anything back but it's very unlikely. The dooms probably the nids best chance against pallys as is. The problem is that he's very random and the numbers don't go that far in his favor.

ShumaGorath wrote:

oh so now they're not "THE OMG HAXXORS"? Because there's lists and armies taht do better against some and worst against others, so that there is one IG list that pwns grey knights isn't an argument either way. And ANY army in the game can come up with a counter for paladins, I dare you to name one that cannot.

Tyranids.

You'd be surprise at the synergy of a Swarmlord Paroxysm accompanied by assault by 18 poisoned prefered enemy genestealers and 8 ymgarls. That against a draigobomb of 10 pallies, libbie and of course, the man himself.

Don't count out tyranid synergy and assault. It may surprise you.

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

oh so now they're not "THE OMG HAXXORS"? Because there's lists and armies taht do better against some and worst against others, so that there is one IG list that pwns grey knights isn't an argument either way. And ANY army in the game can come up with a counter for paladins, I dare you to name one that cannot.

Tyranids.

Hiveguard, allmost every nid player in a competitive list fields the full complement of 3x3

18 str 8 bs 4 shots that don't need LOS....

12 hits...10 wounds...2 dead pallies per turn. And before you say it, you can't always plug the wound onto draigo. you can't choose who gets to fail their save.

Seems good to me!

You'll lose every one of them before doing much damage to the pallies. They can shoot back and will cause casualties much more quickly.

So your response is "nuh uh"?

Seriously dude, you have to see reason at some point.

1) They don't need LOS. If you play with decent terrain, they can hide out of LOS of the paladins.
2) They can get FNP from tervigons, and in general, are T6, 2 wound models with a 3+ save. Storm bolters don't take that down too easily, and neither do psycannons.

Also, 9 hive guard is 450 points, your mystical paladin unit is 1200!

The nids have blocking terrain big enough to somehow cover all of them (they aren't small and one of them is a monstrous creature), a tervigon, they're all in range, the GK player can't simply move away, and the GKs apparently have nothing but the single paladin unit.

Clearly I'm the one making up special scenarios and not seeing reason here.


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jy2 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

oh so now they're not "THE OMG HAXXORS"? Because there's lists and armies taht do better against some and worst against others, so that there is one IG list that pwns grey knights isn't an argument either way. And ANY army in the game can come up with a counter for paladins, I dare you to name one that cannot.

Tyranids.

You'd be surprise at the synergy of a Swarmlord Paroxysm accompanied by assault by 18 poisoned prefered enemy genestealers and 8 ymgarls. That against a draigobomb of 10 pallies, libbie and of course, the man himself.

Don't count out tyranid synergy and assault. It may surprise you.

I'm sure that could do some pretty serious damage. The death star is probably going to shoot all the genestealers to death in the first salvo though. They'll take the rest fairly reliably if they're in cover (which they should be).

You can make specific scenarios where unit A can mathematically beat unit B. Without logical useage though those scenarios aren't particularly realistic.

Well you're buying an HQ anyway, why not toss him in and have both? This is one of those silly little false assumptions. It's unlikely that an independent character won't be accompanying these terms in most situations.

One unit, yay, one unit out of what 4? now has str 5 force weapons instead of str 4, That one unit now has a third of your points, and I just dropped a AP2 Large blast template on them because they aren't in a ride... or if they are, that whole unit is now about half your points. Good job, you just lost half your army in two turns. This is why guard is so strong and why orks and tyrannids are still playable, redundancy, one screw up with grey knights and your done.

What kind of wacky unicorn planet do you live on where SMs can tarpit a GK deathstar?

Not that hard when you're outnumbered 2 to 1.

Tyranids.

Challenge ACCEPTED

HQ
Swarmlord

Elite
3 Hive guard
3 Hive guard
3 Hive guard

Troops
30 termagaunts 3 stranglewebs
30 termagaunts 3 stranglewebs
30 termagaunts 3 stranglewebs
Tervigon
Tervigon
Tervigon

1750







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You'll lose every one of them before doing much damage to the pallies.

Wrong, you'll be dead before you can get line of sight. that is if the nid player is not a total moron.

One unit, yay, one unit out of what 4? now has str 5 force weapons instead of str 4, That one unit now has a third of your points, and I just dropped a AP2 Large blast template on them because they aren't in a ride... or if they are, that whole unit is now about half your points. Good job, you just lost half your army in two turns. This is why guard is so strong and why orks and tyrannids are still playable, redundancy, one screw up with grey knights and your done.

The shrouding mitigates the blast template scenario pretty well, especially with the common foritifed ruin caused by the rad grenade techmarine. But yeah, guard do fantastic against GKs. They have mass access to such weapons and aren't vaporized by psyfledreads.

Tyrranids are still playable, but they aren't commonly considered tournament viable. Orks are still good but have a very hard time against the big 3. They're far from unplayable, but they have near autoloss scenarios.

Not that hard when you're outnumbered 2 to 1.

Thats a weird planet name and statistically no unit in the entire SM book can survive 2 assault rounds with a draigoblock.

Challenge ACCEPTED

I'll play you in starcraft..?


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Wrong, you'll be dead before you can get line of sight. that is if the nid player is not a total moron.

Genestealers don't have jump packs.

Also, 9 hive guard is 450 points, your mystical paladin unit is 1200!

Jesus who fields 1200 point units, i mean I know you CAN with paladins and draigo but com on, Guard would loose simply because they were laughing too long. One demolisher template and boom. Army gone.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Also, 9 hive guard is 450 points, your mystical paladin unit is 1200!

Jesus who fields 1200 point units, i mean I know you CAN with paladins and draigo but com on, Guard would loose simply because they were laughing too long. One demolisher template and boom. Army gone.

That's usually how it goes. Executioners make them poof.

ShumaGorath wrote:
I'm sure that could do some pretty serious damage. The death star is probably going to shoot all the genestealers to death in the first salvo though. They'll take the rest fairly reliably if they're in cover (which they should be).

You can make specific scenarios where unit A can mathematically beat unit B. Without logical useage though those scenarios aren't particularly realistic.

Not when there's a screen of 20 gargoyles in front of the FNP'd stealers. Most of those stealers are going to survive.

Stick them in cover? Let me explain the situation:

1. You cannot reach the enemy's C&C objective if you are not advancing. Every turn you sit still or hide in cover means that you are losing.

2. Who cares about cover from an army with no AP2 shooting?

3. Sanctuary is all the cover I need. Unfortunately, Shadows made for a very good counter.

4. Let me re-iterate, in an objectives game with paladins (esp. pure Draigowing), if you don't advance, you lose.


BTW, I'm talking from actual gaming experience. That's one step beyond logic and theoryhammer.

Genestealers don't have jump packs.

Are you a moron, we were talking about hiveguard.

The shrouding mitigates the blast template scenario pretty well,

you really are daft because they're either in cover, and not coming to you thus not really a threat... or they're out in the open, with a 5+ cover save when they have a 5+ invuln....

Thats a weird planet name and statistically no unit in the entire SM book can survive 2 assault rounds with a draigoblock.

you don't know anything about tactics do you? .... you don't use both to assault the pallies, you assault one cap with the other.

Fetterkey wrote:One interesting note is that this thread looks a lot better if you put Shuma ..edit.. on ignore. Realistically speaking, if someone thinks that Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Space Marines, and Necrons are all nonviable armies there's not really a whole lot you can do for them other than acknowledge their opinion and move on. Once you screen out stuff like that, the discussion here becomes a lot more helpful.

I did this a while back and can't recommend it enough it really does make the thread a lot more manageable and keeps my blood pressure down.

Not when there's a screen of 20 gargoyles in front of the FNP'd stealers. Most of those stealers are going to survive.

This 20 models in front of 26 models in front of a monstrous creature. Somethings getting stuck behind in this logjam. Also, you didn't mention the gargs before.

Stick them in cover? Let me explain the situation:

1. You cannot reach the enemy's C&C objective if you are not advancing. Every turn you sit still or hide in cover means that you are losing.

2. Who cares about cover from an army with no AP2 shooting?

Cover means that the tyranids go last in combat. This is painful considering the swarmlord doesn't have EW.

3. Sanctuary is all the cover I need. Unfortunately, Shadows made for a very good counter.

I don't understand this.

4. Let me re-iterate, in an objectives game with paladins (esp. pure Draigowing), if you don't advance, you lose.

Sure. It's very table dependent. This whole scenario is full of holes. Just hope that they can't sit accross from you for 3 turns then run into the objective late.

BTW, I'm talking from actual gaming experience. That's one step beyond logic and theoryhammer.

Technically its still just logic and theoryhammer.


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pretre wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:One interesting note is that this thread looks a lot better if you put Shuma ..edit.. on ignore. Realistically speaking, if someone thinks that Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Space Marines, and Necrons are all nonviable armies there's not really a whole lot you can do for them other than acknowledge their opinion and move on. Once you screen out stuff like that, the discussion here becomes a lot more helpful.

I did this a while back and can't recommend it enough it really does make the thread a lot more manageable and keeps my blood pressure down.

I'm sure it's a lot more fun when you can all pat yourselves on the back and avoid actually having to consider the gak you think realistically. You could probably get really drunk and play world of warcraft too. It'd be about the same level of intellect on your half of the glowing monitor. Statistics and reality are hard. I understand.

ShumaGorath wrote:

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

oh so now they're not "THE OMG HAXXORS"? Because there's lists and armies taht do better against some and worst against others, so that there is one IG list that pwns grey knights isn't an argument either way. And ANY army in the game can come up with a counter for paladins, I dare you to name one that cannot.

Tyranids.

Hiveguard, allmost every nid player in a competitive list fields the full complement of 3x3

18 str 8 bs 4 shots that don't need LOS....

12 hits...10 wounds...2 dead pallies per turn. And before you say it, you can't always plug the wound onto draigo. you can't choose who gets to fail their save.

Seems good to me!

You'll lose every one of them before doing much damage to the pallies. They can shoot back and will cause casualties much more quickly.

So your response is "nuh uh"?

Seriously dude, you have to see reason at some point.

1) They don't need LOS. If you play with decent terrain, they can hide out of LOS of the paladins.
2) They can get FNP from tervigons, and in general, are T6, 2 wound models with a 3+ save. Storm bolters don't take that down too easily, and neither do psycannons.

Also, 9 hive guard is 450 points, your mystical paladin unit is 1200!

The nids have blocking terrain big enough to somehow cover all of them (they aren't small and one of them is a monstrous creature), a tervigon, they're all in range, the GK player can't simply move away, and the GKs apparently have nothing but the single paladin unit.

Clearly I'm the one making up special scenarios and not seeing reason here.

-No but cover to hide the hiveguard is NOT hard to come by. The tervigon is out of range, slinging fnp forward onto them (if desired, that isn't essential to this scenario, it was purely an example of "they can be made more survivable"

-If the hive guard aren't in range, neither are the paladins. If the paladins aren't in range, then they aren't doing anything, because the hiveguard are at the front of the nid army, forcing you to consider whether you can advance or not. Once the paladins come into range, the hiveguard have the advantage since they dont even need LOS.

-At 1200 points, it's actually fairly reasonable that the GK's have nothing else, especcially since we haven't given the nids in this example anything else, even though they're down 3:1 on points (1200 vs 450)

10 Paladins shooting at 9 hiveguard (no fnp)
12 storm bolter shots, 8 hits, 1.2 wounds = .4 unsaved wounds
16 Psycannon shots, 10.66 hits, 7 wounds (call 1 a rend), rend = .5 unsaved (they will have cover), 6 other wounds = 2 unsaved

Total effect of shooting = 3 unsaved wounds. 1.5 hive guard models.

Thats 1200 points of GK versus 450 of Nids, and the nids average 2 kills per turn

Identical range, and the nids don't need LOS, so they'll have a huge advantage in who is firing at who first/more. Even with both sides just shooting willy nilly at each other and the hive guard standing where they can be seen, the units are declining in size at the SAME RATE.