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targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

oh so now they're not "THE OMG HAXXORS"? Because there's lists and armies taht do better against some and worst against others, so that there is one IG list that pwns grey knights isn't an argument either way. And ANY army in the game can come up with a counter for paladins, I dare you to name one that cannot.

Tyranids.

Hiveguard, allmost every nid player in a competitive list fields the full complement of 3x3

18 str 8 bs 4 shots that don't need LOS....

12 hits...10 wounds...2 dead pallies per turn. And before you say it, you can't always plug the wound onto draigo. you can't choose who gets to fail their save.

Seems good to me!

You'll lose every one of them before doing much damage to the pallies. They can shoot back and will cause casualties much more quickly.

So your response is "nuh uh"?

Seriously dude, you have to see reason at some point.

1) They don't need LOS. If you play with decent terrain, they can hide out of LOS of the paladins.
2) They can get FNP from tervigons, and in general, are T6, 2 wound models with a 3+ save. Storm bolters don't take that down too easily, and neither do psycannons.

Also, 9 hive guard is 450 points, your mystical paladin unit is 1200!

The nids have blocking terrain big enough to somehow cover all of them (they aren't small and one of them is a monstrous creature), a tervigon, they're all in range, the GK player can't simply move away, and the GKs apparently have nothing but the single paladin unit.

Clearly I'm the one making up special scenarios and not seeing reason here.

-No but cover to hide the hiveguard is NOT hard to come by. The tervigon is out of range, slinging fnp forward onto them (if desired, that isn't essential to this scenario, it was purely an example of "they can be made more survivable"

-If the hive guard aren't in range, neither are the paladins. If the paladins aren't in range, then they aren't doing anything, because the hiveguard are at the front of the nid army, forcing you to consider whether you can advance or not. Once the paladins come into range, the hiveguard have the advantage since they dont even need LOS.

-At 1200 points, it's actually fairly reasonable that the GK's have nothing else, especcially since we haven't given the nids in this example anything else, even though they're down 3:1 on points (1200 vs 450)

10 Paladins shooting at 9 hiveguard (no fnp)
12 storm bolter shots, 8 hits, 1.2 wounds = .4 unsaved wounds
16 Psycannon shots, 10.66 hits, 7 wounds (call 1 a rend), rend = .5 unsaved (they will have cover), 6 other wounds = 2 unsaved

Total effect of shooting = 3 unsaved wounds. 1.5 hive guard models.

Thats 1200 points of GK versus 450 of Nids, and the nids average 2 kills per turn

Identical range, and the nids don't need LOS, so they'll have a huge advantage in who is firing at who first/more. Even with both sides just shooting willy nilly at each other and the hive guard standing where they can be seen, the units are declining in size at the SAME RATE.

The scenario is kind of silly though. If it's actually just them vs 9 hiveguard they'll just run forward and stab them to death. Distilled scenarios like this aren't very helpful. JY2 is going about it a bit better, but the direct mathematical comparisons without considering objectives, supporting armies, or the board is unhelpful.

If it's actually just them vs 9 hiveguard they'll just run forward and stab them to death.

but the direct mathematical comparisons without considering objectives, supporting armies, or the board is unhelpful.

So who's the one making up situations in isolation. or are you going to charge half your army at the 450 Unit.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Not when there's a screen of 20 gargoyles in front of the FNP'd stealers. Most of those stealers are going to survive.

This 20 models in front of 26 models in front of a monstrous creature. Somethings getting stuck behind in this logjam. Also, you didn't mention the gargs before.

BTW, this was a game between my Draigowing and Janthin's (who is a very good tournament nid player) nids.

Ymgarls are hiding in terrain and actually pop out from behind my guys, assaulting them from the rear.

Tyranid tactics is not necessarily to kill my deathstar, but to delay them from ever reaching his objective. I shoot stealers, who have a good chance of surviving with cover and FNP, and next turn, gargoyles advance and just screens me out, preventing me from advancing. Thus I had to shoot them as stopping me from advancing was a much bigger threat IMO.

Cover means that the tyranids go last in combat. This is painful considering the swarmlord doesn't have EW.

Wow. What a new concept! As someone who also play nids, I never knew that....

Sacrcasm aside, yes, I'm well aware of that.

3. Sanctuary is all the cover I need. Unfortunately, Shadows made for a very good counter.

I don't understand this.

Sanctuary is another GK psychic power that's almost as bad as Fort and Warp Quake. Basically, any unit assaulting a GK unit within 12" of the librarian has to go through difficult and dangerous terrain.

That would've been my "mobile cover/protection" against tyranid assault. But Shadows has a way of f*cking all my powers up.

4. Let me re-iterate, in an objectives game with paladins (esp. pure Draigowing), if you don't advance, you lose.

Sure. It's very table dependent. This whole scenario is full of holes. Just hope that they can't sit accross from you for 3 turns then run into the objective late.

One of the biggest weaknesses of Draigowing is few units. One of the greatest strengths of tervigon nids is many units. Try catching all those units in an objectives game. And you know how else nids will beat you? By screening you out with layers and layers of units - gargoyles, gaunts, genestealers, even the Swarmlord himself will be used to screen you out. And your deathstar cannot shoot at the units behind or else it cannot assault the screening unit.

Tyranids have a lot of synergies people don't really see until they play against them. What you think is a strategy "full of holes" is actually quite practical in actual gameplay.

Tyranids have a lot of synergies people don't really see until they play against them. What you think is a strategy "full of holes" is actually quite practical in actual gameplay.

I said the scenario was full of holes. It was. Not the strategy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:

If it's actually just them vs 9 hiveguard they'll just run forward and stab them to death.

but the direct mathematical comparisons without considering objectives, supporting armies, or the board is unhelpful.

So who's the one making up situations in isolation. or are you going to charge half your army at the 450 Unit.

I don't think you understood what you quoted.

I don't think you understood what you quoted.

I'm not sure you understand how to tie your shoelaces.

gendoikari87 wrote:

I don't think you understood what you quoted.

I'm not sure you understand how to tie your shoelaces.

I never could figure out the bunny loops.

jy2 wrote:
4. Let me re-iterate, in an objectives game with paladins (esp. pure Draigowing), if you don't advance, you lose.

More to the point, which is a point anti-Draigostar people seem to be missing, objectives only count at the end of the game.

Too many people said you must go into the Draigostar because of objectives, which is BS. You only have to be on them right before the game ends.

<settle down, folks; you can discuss politely, but impolite posting will result in sanctions>


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:

jy2 wrote:
4. Let me re-iterate, in an objectives game with paladins (esp. pure Draigowing), if you don't advance, you lose.

More to the point, which is a point anti-Draigostar people seem to be missing, objectives only count at the end of the game.

Too many people said you must go into the Draigostar because of objectives, which is BS. You only have to be on them right before the game ends.

Yes, but in a Capture & Control, or a limited objective Seize Ground, you have to be able to at least contest the objective(s) the Paladins are sitting on. They're difficult to dislodge, barring long-range skimmer tank-shocking (and enough terrain to keep skimmers alive for that purpose).

In c&c the issue with draigowing 10 man walking lists is they either have to hold theirs or go for yours. Which means they effectively split their army in half. You could just forgo your own to send everything at theirs and then towards the end depending how fast you are send a few things back to contest on your own. The 10 block can only kill so much.

ShumaGorath wrote:(rest snipped)

The scenario is kind of silly though. If it's actually just them vs 9 hiveguard they'll just run forward and stab them to death. Distilled scenarios like this aren't very helpful. JY2 is going about it a bit better, but the direct mathematical comparisons without considering objectives, supporting armies, or the board is unhelpful.

The scenario is now "kind of silly" because you realize you were wrong.

And please explain to me how those paladins will "run forward and stab them to death". Paladins move 6 inches per turn. Funnily enough, so do hiveguard, and they can even move and shoot! And before you say "well they could use a run move!" then remember...them paladins aren't shooting now. This isn't just an abstract scenario, I've played this exact scenario as the draigo player in a casual and tournament setting. Most tournaments put terrain in the center of the board, usually a LOS blocking piece. hiveguard deploy behind it. Paladins HAVE to move forward in order to impact the game. They walk 6, sad, slow inches per turn while getting peppered with a ton of strength 8.

Janthkin wrote:<settle down, folks; you can discuss politely, but impolite posting will result in sanctions>


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:

jy2 wrote:
4. Let me re-iterate, in an objectives game with paladins (esp. pure Draigowing), if you don't advance, you lose.

More to the point, which is a point anti-Draigostar people seem to be missing, objectives only count at the end of the game.

Too many people said you must go into the Draigostar because of objectives, which is BS. You only have to be on them right before the game ends.

Yes, but in a Capture & Control, or a limited objective Seize Ground, you have to be able to at least contest the objective(s) the Paladins are sitting on. They're difficult to dislodge, barring long-range skimmer tank-shocking (and enough terrain to keep skimmers alive for that purpose).

It's true that Draigowing can always play for the draw in a limited objectives mssion just by "sitting" on their objectives. But in a tournament environment, how far would that get them? Other then by possibly tabling their opponent (or their troops at least), if Draigowing wants to win, then they need to make a play for the opponent's objective. And the opponent doesn't necesarily have to kill them, just prevent them from reaching it (while also making a play for the GK objective as well).

IMO, C&C is actually the hardest mission for Draigowing arguably because of 2 of their biggest weaknesses - low number of units and lack of mobility.

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:(rest snipped)

The scenario is kind of silly though. If it's actually just them vs 9 hiveguard they'll just run forward and stab them to death. Distilled scenarios like this aren't very helpful. JY2 is going about it a bit better, but the direct mathematical comparisons without considering objectives, supporting armies, or the board is unhelpful.

The scenario is now "kind of silly" because you realize you were wrong.

And please explain to me how those paladins will "run forward and stab them to death". Paladins move 6 inches per turn. Funnily enough, so do hiveguard, and they can even move and shoot! And before you say "well they could use a run move!" then remember...them paladins aren't shooting now. This isn't just an abstract scenario, I've played this exact scenario as the draigo player in a casual and tournament setting. Most tournaments put terrain in the center of the board, usually a LOS blocking piece. hiveguard deploy behind it. Paladins HAVE to move forward in order to impact the game. They walk 6, sad, slow inches per turn while getting peppered with a ton of strength 8.

I'm pretty sure I've been stating that such comparisons are unhelpful for 50 pages, but then scenarios like this are just about all people can really manage to communicate in on this topic. It's like some sort of despicable form of unhelpful semaphor. So yeah, lets say that you manage to kill about a palladin a turn starting turn two. If the game ends on turn six you've managed to kill five palladins. You got zero kill points, I still have a librarian and draigo and my scoring potential isn't really reduced much. What did you lose during those turns? We don't know. Where are the objectives? We don't know. What else is in your army? We don't know. What else is in mine? We don't know.

This gak is dumb dawg.

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:(rest snipped)

The scenario is kind of silly though. If it's actually just them vs 9 hiveguard they'll just run forward and stab them to death. Distilled scenarios like this aren't very helpful. JY2 is going about it a bit better, but the direct mathematical comparisons without considering objectives, supporting armies, or the board is unhelpful.

The scenario is now "kind of silly" because you realize you were wrong.

And please explain to me how those paladins will "run forward and stab them to death". Paladins move 6 inches per turn. Funnily enough, so do hiveguard, and they can even move and shoot! And before you say "well they could use a run move!" then remember...them paladins aren't shooting now. This isn't just an abstract scenario, I've played this exact scenario as the draigo player in a casual and tournament setting. Most tournaments put terrain in the center of the board, usually a LOS blocking piece. hiveguard deploy behind it. Paladins HAVE to move forward in order to impact the game. They walk 6, sad, slow inches per turn while getting peppered with a ton of strength 8.

Alright so you have 3 units of 3 hiveguard.

Only 3 can shoot at once. That means at most 2 will be going on the squad instead of draigo if you roll perfect then the process will repeat for each of the 3. I havent seen a draigo list yet that hasnt included Psydreads in it that deploy with good enough line of sight to shoot across the board. Count those into your statistics as well. Something that can instant kill my paladins would make its way on a high priority target list. As for different scenarios:

Table Quarters: GK > Nids
Victory Points: GK > Nids
Capture and Hold: GK > Nids
Kill Points: GK > Nids
Objective Games: GK <= Nids

I miss anything there? Maybe one scenario where I could see draigowing having an issue beating any nid build.

ShumaGorath wrote:

dok wrote:Some daemons builds have a tough time with some GK builds. That's for sure.

Some..?

Daemons don't have any inherent weaknesses against a coteaz henchmen build and only minor ones against draigowing. They also don't have any problems if they go first against the mythical Strike squad spamming army.

ShumaGorath wrote:

dok wrote:Dark eldar is paper to GKs rock, but they are scissors to more armies paper. Some armies have a really tough time against Dark Eldar. DE also has one of the highest learning curves imo, so you shouldn't be surprised that people aren't running out to pick them up.

Especially since their rock is a significant number of entries in most tournaments.

What is "most tournaments"? Some number you're imagining that exists? You have no way to prove this. Yes, DE have a significant disadvantage if they go second against GK. But they have that same disadvantage against any gunline army. If DE runs into a draigowing list in an objective mission, they have a good chance to win if they are a good player.

ShumaGorath wrote:

dok wrote:There's more than one build of Blood angels. DoA has never been a top tournament build. Also, your statement that a squad of DCAs shuts down the whole army is ridiculous. An entire army of jump packs should be able to out maneuver DCAs. In addition, they are a prime target for fear of the darkness.

It's hard to outmaneuver something that's being used to countercharge. It's not like they have any reason to come get you. You're going to them.

If they are not coming to get you, then you reduce their mobility and assault their flanks. I don't mind talking strategy with you, but that's not what this thread is about.

ShumaGorath wrote:

dok wrote:DA have one viable tournament build. Deathwing. They are one of the hardest armies for GK to beat due to the lack of low ap shooting and the availability of a board wide hood.

And they fold like paper the moment they get into actual combat with some halberds. If it's a straight up fight between MSU GK hench and DW i'm gonna give it to the henchmen. The angels can't bring the right level of anti armor firepower and it's not particularly difficult to simply torrent them all to death.

This blows my mind. Have you read the GK codex? No henchmen can have halberds. And why even bring up halberds? DW goes last. The opponents I doesn't matter. If a DCA unit gets a charge on a DW unit, they should wipe them out with support. However, there's no reason for the DW player to allow that. In my DW list, I have 14 missiles which is mathematically enough to bring down a SR with cover. A land raider is another story, but there are multi-meltas for that. A henchman list will be firing heavy bolters and autocannons. All of which the DW player will get armour against. It takes 2 RBs with psybolt to kill 1 DW term. And that's if they all hit and the dice fall into place mathematically.

ShumaGorath wrote:

dok wrote:Chaos is an old and busted codex. Some experienced generals are able to pull off wins with this, but they are at a disadvantage to almost every newer army. Their units are too expensive in the current meta and they cannot bring the amount of firepower to the table that newer armies are. DE smashes Chaos far worse than GK could hope to.

If they're getting tabled I don't think it really matters what turn it happens on.

Ok, I don't have anything to pile on chaos with.

ShumaGorath wrote:

dok wrote:BW orks are still really good against GK. Kan wall less so. I've never played against green tide, but it seems like a bad matchup.

Cool, so theres one expensive variant list that can have even odds of beating GKs. I smell a trend here.

Expensive? Money-wise? 40k is a fairly expensive hobby. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. And what trend is that? That some lists are good against other lists?

ShumaGorath wrote:

dok wrote:So really, where are you getting your information from? Are you just nerd raging against someone who beat your pretty sanguinary guard army?

I run vanilla marines. I'm just looking at tourney reports and running the numbers. Where are you getting yours?

I would love to see these tourney reports. If someone collated all the information from tournaments over the last year and put them together, that would be fantastic.

ShumaGorath wrote:

dok wrote:You really haven't been able to provide any evidence in 40 pages of this thread.

Evidence for what?

Of your assertion that GK are the most overpowered book in a decade.

ShumaGorath wrote:

dok wrote: All you do is give personal opinions and rage against people who are offering constructive information.

I haven't seen much of that here. Maybe my standards are higher than yours though, who knows.

To each their own.

ShumaGorath wrote:

dok wrote:Maybe people in your local meta are really good with draigowing armies.

They're actually pretty poor. I've managed to beat them with vanilla marines about half the time, but thats only when they basically give me the game on a silver platter. The real thing keeping them down here is the local mech IG player.

So you beat draigowing with vanilla marines because the people that are playing them are so bad? Maybe you are just too good?

ShumaGorath wrote:

dok wrote:No one plays that where I live. Paladins in a mixed list are an excellent support unit. Paladins in a draigowing list are easily brought down by a tac list.

I'm glad you're sure of something that basically everyone in near 50 pages has said is false directly after stating that you had no personal experience in doing the thing you were sure of.

Isn't this every statement you have made? Barring the above where you beat draigowing all the time.

ShumaGorath wrote:

dok wrote:Hell, a Vanilla marine Vulkan list should be able to wipe a paladin squad from the board in 1 or two turns. As well as a good chaos list.

lolnope,jpg

Good talk.

Tomb King wrote:

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:(rest snipped)

The scenario is kind of silly though. If it's actually just them vs 9 hiveguard they'll just run forward and stab them to death. Distilled scenarios like this aren't very helpful. JY2 is going about it a bit better, but the direct mathematical comparisons without considering objectives, supporting armies, or the board is unhelpful.

The scenario is now "kind of silly" because you realize you were wrong.

And please explain to me how those paladins will "run forward and stab them to death". Paladins move 6 inches per turn. Funnily enough, so do hiveguard, and they can even move and shoot! And before you say "well they could use a run move!" then remember...them paladins aren't shooting now. This isn't just an abstract scenario, I've played this exact scenario as the draigo player in a casual and tournament setting. Most tournaments put terrain in the center of the board, usually a LOS blocking piece. hiveguard deploy behind it. Paladins HAVE to move forward in order to impact the game. They walk 6, sad, slow inches per turn while getting peppered with a ton of strength 8.

Alright so you have 3 units of 3 hiveguard.

Only 3 can shoot at once. That means at most 2 will be going on the squad instead of draigo if you roll perfect then the process will repeat for each of the 3. I havent seen a draigo list yet that hasnt included Psydreads in it that deploy with good enough line of sight to shoot across the board. Count those into your statistics as well. Something that can instant kill my paladins would make its way on a high priority target list. As for different scenarios:

Table Quarters: GK > Nids
Victory Points: GK > Nids
Capture and Hold: GK > Nids
Kill Points: GK > Nids
Objective Games: GK <= Nids

I miss anything there? Maybe one scenario where I could see draigowing having an issue beating any nid build.

3 Hiveguard fire 6 shots. Those 6 shots do just shy of 4 wounds. Draigo has a 25% chance of being the wounded model in any given time. They kill on average, 2 paladins per turn.

And you did miss something else: you're including the "rest of the draigowing army" after your 1200 point unit now. WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE NID ARMY AFTER THE MERE 450 POINTS OF HIVEGUARD.

Table Quarters: Nids > Draigowing
-Nids have far, far more scoring units (or preponderance of VP to spread out, depending on how it's played), GK movement is restricted because it has all it's eggs in one basket and needs to be careful around the hiveguards threat radius.

Victory Points: Toss up, Draigowing is hard to get points from, but hiveguard whittle down paladins fast, and paladins, unless you charge them for some bizarre reason, don't do much damage at range to nid units in cover.

Kill Points: Draigowing > Nids (If draigowing can successfully engage any targets to get kill points)

Capture and Hold: Nids > Draigowing - Draigowing has next to nothing to leave on it's home objective. If it leaves it's star there, all it does is force a draw, because it doesnt have the power to shift the opponent off theirs

Objective Game: Nids >>> Draigowing - This is draigowings worst match against anyone. Nids pump out termagaunts from Tervigons and have excellent scoring. Draigowing either splits up and becomes very vulnerable, or sits together and can't take more than a couple objectives (which it has to slowly waddle to).

Me thinks you mis-read these matchups.

And also:

1200 Points of draigo unit crap
You need a second troop of some sort
3 Psyfledreads

Thats the entire list.

A psyfledread versus hive guard, just for the record: 4 shots, 3.75 hits, 3 ish wounds, 1 unsaved. They're 2 wound models. Those psyfledreads aren't exactly racing those units down.

Hive Guard have a 4+ save actually.

hive guard are going to get cover against psyfledreads. Either because they will actually be in cover, or they will covered by things like termagaunts.

I love how these paladins have to foot slog apparently for 5 turns when they can actually use communion and hold off coming in until late and deepstrike. I have seen paladins brick up on their C&C/ SG and just teleport solodins late game where needed to contest....

targetawg wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

targetawg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:(rest snipped)

The scenario is kind of silly though. If it's actually just them vs 9 hiveguard they'll just run forward and stab them to death. Distilled scenarios like this aren't very helpful. JY2 is going about it a bit better, but the direct mathematical comparisons without considering objectives, supporting armies, or the board is unhelpful.

The scenario is now "kind of silly" because you realize you were wrong.

And please explain to me how those paladins will "run forward and stab them to death". Paladins move 6 inches per turn. Funnily enough, so do hiveguard, and they can even move and shoot! And before you say "well they could use a run move!" then remember...them paladins aren't shooting now. This isn't just an abstract scenario, I've played this exact scenario as the draigo player in a casual and tournament setting. Most tournaments put terrain in the center of the board, usually a LOS blocking piece. hiveguard deploy behind it. Paladins HAVE to move forward in order to impact the game. They walk 6, sad, slow inches per turn while getting peppered with a ton of strength 8.

Alright so you have 3 units of 3 hiveguard.

Only 3 can shoot at once. That means at most 2 will be going on the squad instead of draigo if you roll perfect then the process will repeat for each of the 3. I havent seen a draigo list yet that hasnt included Psydreads in it that deploy with good enough line of sight to shoot across the board. Count those into your statistics as well. Something that can instant kill my paladins would make its way on a high priority target list. As for different scenarios:

Table Quarters: GK > Nids
Victory Points: GK > Nids
Capture and Hold: GK > Nids
Kill Points: GK > Nids
Objective Games: GK <= Nids

I miss anything there? Maybe one scenario where I could see draigowing having an issue beating any nid build.

3 Hiveguard fire 6 shots. Those 6 shots do just shy of 4 wounds. Draigo has a 25% chance of being the wounded model in any given time. They kill on average, 2 paladins per turn.

And you did miss something else: you're including the "rest of the draigowing army" after your 1200 point unit now. WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE NID ARMY AFTER THE MERE 450 POINTS OF HIVEGUARD.

Table Quarters: Nids > Draigowing
-Nids have far, far more scoring units (or preponderance of VP to spread out, depending on how it's played), GK movement is restricted because it has all it's eggs in one basket and needs to be careful around the hiveguards threat radius.

Victory Points: Toss up, Draigowing is hard to get points from, but hiveguard whittle down paladins fast, and paladins, unless you charge them for some bizarre reason, don't do much damage at range to nid units in cover.

Kill Points: Draigowing > Nids (If draigowing can successfully engage any targets to get kill points)

Capture and Hold: Nids > Draigowing - Draigowing has next to nothing to leave on it's home objective. If it leaves it's star there, all it does is force a draw, because it doesnt have the power to shift the opponent off theirs

Objective Game: Nids >>> Draigowing - This is draigowings worst match against anyone. Nids pump out termagaunts from Tervigons and have excellent scoring. Draigowing either splits up and becomes very vulnerable, or sits together and can't take more than a couple objectives (which it has to slowly waddle to).

Me thinks you mis-read these matchups.

And also:

1200 Points of draigo unit crap
You need a second troop of some sort
3 Psyfledreads

Thats the entire list.

A psyfledread versus hive guard, just for the record: 4 shots, 3.75 hits, 3 ish wounds, 1 unsaved. They're 2 wound models. Those psyfledreads aren't exactly racing those units down.

The tournaments I play in victory points in each table quarter decide that table quarter. Vast difference from just mere troop choices.

Also can we get away from the idea of a 1200 point paladin unit? I have never seen someone dumb enough to spend that many points on them especially on any competitive level.

Lastly, if you would like I can play test these idea's against you like I did the last Nid player who claimed he had all the answers. That game ended in a board wipe. I can do this on vassal. I love challenges and if it is as hard as you say it is I wanna try it. I can do 2000 points like the last one. Let me know if you wanna try it. As data > opinion

Theyre gonna ds on a nids objective?? Kinda hard with even 14 gaunts sitting there dontcha think? The comparision is purely nids vs gk currently so ds wont be that easy at the last minute. While sitting there and taking fire might be even less reliable as ds a solo pally onto an area covered in bugs.

Tomb King wrote:Lastly, if you would like I can play test these idea's against you like I did the last Nid player who claimed he had all the answers. That game ended in a board wipe. I can do this on vassal. I love challenges and if it is as hard as you say it is I wanna try it. I can do 2000 points like the last one. Let me know if you wanna try it. As data > opinion

Vassal may be data, but it sure is flawed. You don't factor in TLOS, and a lot of success comes from player familiarity with the medium (I've never used vassal)

Also, 10 wound allocated paladins with Apothecary and psycannons = 730 ish, add draigo in, you're at 1000 points. The 1200 number comes from the example people kept using whenever someone would point out a flaw of the unit, they (shuma usually) would respond with the deus ex machina of "well they would have a libby who would give them XYZ". The libby is the last 200 points.

Come over to NOVA or one of the east coast events, or, I'll be at Adepticon as well. I'll do a game in person. I have a friend who I'm sure would let me borrow his nids, and get a big chuckle out of it in the process, since I've played nids all of 3-4 times and it's his pet army.

I have a good record versus GK with my Tyranids. I am currently working on how to deal with Coteaz lists... Draigowing and Purifier spam I do very well.

targetawg wrote:

Also, 10 wound allocated paladins with Apothecary and psycannons = 730 ish, add draigo in, you're at 1000 points. The 1200 number comes from the example people kept using whenever someone would point out a flaw of the unit, they (shuma usually) would respond with the deus ex machina of "well they would have a libby who would give them XYZ". The libby is the last 200 points.

Dont forget the tech marine who gives them fortifications so they get a 2++ against all shooting the entire game, as well as rad and psycho nades, and the 3 psyflemen.

@Targetawg

You wouldn't even have to borrow Yermom's buddy, I could drive them in with the rest of my adepticon stuff

Heck I'll bring my bugs and GK's TK in addition to whatever I decide to play and maybe we can get a fun game in

Hulksmash wrote:@Targetawg

You wouldn't even have to borrow Yermom's buddy, I could drive them in with the rest of my adepticon stuff

Heck I'll bring my bugs and GK's TK in addition to whatever I decide to play and maybe we can get a fun game in

This sounds like a good old time I could supply the boo's as I dont have the grey knights as I was in the process of selling them haha. I will be in INDY if you are attending Targetawg.

Hulksmash wrote:@Targetawg

You wouldn't even have to borrow Yermom's buddy, I could drive them in with the rest of my adepticon stuff

Heck I'll bring my bugs and GK's TK in addition to whatever I decide to play and maybe we can get a fun game in

Sweeeeeet, the team can have a good chuckle at me as I muddle through a book I haven't touched since 4th. (And even then, I only played a handful of games to prove a point!)

No Indy for me I'm afraid, I booked myself into too many GT's this year and am feeling the pressure already.

Conflict, SVDM, Colonial, Adepticon, NOVA, Battle for Blobs Park I'll be at at the very least...oy vey, what was I thinking..

You guys do realize that you've been trolled for almost 50 pages, right?

targetawg wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:@Targetawg

You wouldn't even have to borrow Yermom's buddy, I could drive them in with the rest of my adepticon stuff

Heck I'll bring my bugs and GK's TK in addition to whatever I decide to play and maybe we can get a fun game in

Sweeeeeet, the team can have a good chuckle at me as I muddle through a book I haven't touched since 4th. (And even then, I only played a handful of games to prove a point!)

No Indy for me I'm afraid, I booked myself into too many GT's this year and am feeling the pressure already.

Conflict, SVDM, Colonial, Adepticon, NOVA, Battle for Blobs Park I'll be at at the very least...oy vey, what was I thinking..

Dont worry I have only ever played with GK's once and that was on vassal to prove the last point. You can find that battle report in my threads created as I posted it. I couldnt get register for adepticon in time it filled to fast :( (if anyone has a team slot open up let me know). Nova is hard to commit to for me because of the possibility of me being in training.

Im curious how many GK players will be at the Indy GT or even a count on how many will be there total. You have any numbers on that Brad?

Chumbalaya wrote:You guys do realize that you've been trolled for almost 50 pages, right?

Oh nooozz!!! Where were you 50 pages ago man? You could of stopped all of this.

Chumbalaya wrote:You guys do realize that you've been trolled for almost 50 pages, right?

Most certainly I've managed to hold myself back from overly commenting after I stated my position at the beginning. Minds aren't being changed here. It's just silly arguments

@TK

I have no idea. I haven't even decided what army I'm going to be running. I'll figure it out the week of

I think there's been plenty of reasonable and worthwhile discussion in here. Certainly more than in some threads.

A good amount of junk and spurious arguments, too, but the best response to those is better arguments and good data.