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Made in pt
Fireknife Shas'el




Lisbon, Portugal

The Enmitic is a worse Autocannon with more shots

But it seems clear this is will replace the current destroyers

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/03 20:35:34


AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion & X-Wing: CIS / WWX: Union

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 Shadenuat wrote:
Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army.
 
   
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Biloxi, MS USA

 Vector Strike wrote:
The Enmitic is a worse Autocannon with more shots

But it seems clear this is will replace the current destroyers


The current Heavy Destroyers, sure. There's most likely a not-ETB Lokhust Destroyer kit that will replace the standard Destroyers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/03 21:24:08


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




punisher357 wrote:
 Sasori wrote:

Spoiler:



My thoughts from the N&R

130 points seems pretty solid for the Doomstalker. While it's BS4+, notably it doesn't degrade.

The Gauss Destructor is interesting to say the least... 1 Shot at min 3 Damage is pretty decent, and has the ability to do significantly more. It's just one shot a piece though.

The Enmitic weapon seems pretty bad. If it was damage 2 I'd consider it, but just -1 AP D1 and it's not even strength 8 doesn't seem very good.


Where are these images from? It seems weird that the enmitic weapon isn't blast like the skorpekh lord's

Its a different weapon. I don't get GW's logic on this, but the Skorpekh lord has very similar but slightly different weapons.
His gun is 2d3 rather than 3d3 and S6 rather than 7.
And his harvester is exactly like the reap-blade on the skorpekh destroyers, but has -1 to hit.

The lokhusts Enmitic Exterminator is actually functionally more like the particle shredder (heavy 6, S7, -1AP, D1d3) than the lord's Enmitic Annihilator.

And sadly, the only reason we have for any of it is 'because reasons.'
Which is why we're also getting a sawn-off shotgun version of the DDA in the Doomstalker. Same role, cooler model, because feth-all, that's why.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/03 21:53:00


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon




UK

The lack of blast definitely seems like an oversight and will probably be FAQ'd.

Nazi punks feth off 
   
Made in us
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

Voss wrote:
punisher357 wrote:
 Sasori wrote:

Spoiler:



My thoughts from the N&R

130 points seems pretty solid for the Doomstalker. While it's BS4+, notably it doesn't degrade.

The Gauss Destructor is interesting to say the least... 1 Shot at min 3 Damage is pretty decent, and has the ability to do significantly more. It's just one shot a piece though.

The Enmitic weapon seems pretty bad. If it was damage 2 I'd consider it, but just -1 AP D1 and it's not even strength 8 doesn't seem very good.


Where are these images from? It seems weird that the enmitic weapon isn't blast like the skorpekh lord's

Its a different weapon. I don't get GW's logic on this, but the Skorpekh lord has very similar but slightly different weapons.
His gun is 2d3 rather than 3d3 and S6 rather than 7.
And his harvester is exactly like the reap-blade on the skorpekh destroyers, but has -1 to hit.

The lokhusts Enmitic Exterminator is actually functionally more like the particle shredder (heavy 6, S7, -1AP, D1d3) than the lord's Enmitic Annihilator.

And sadly, the only reason we have for any of it is 'because reasons.'
Which is why we're also getting a sawn-off shotgun version of the DDA in the Doomstalker. Same role, cooler model, because feth-all, that's why.


Some make sense. The lord's Harvester is -1 to hit because it's strength 8 base, which is pretty typical. The Reap Blade has to have the Plasmacyte infusion to reach strength 8 since it's strength 7 base, so there is risk involved.
Not having blast is a little weird, but it would only go into effect on 11+ models since it's min 3 shots.

There may be some significant playstyles involved between Canoptekh units and vehicles, which may be the diffrence between the DDA and DDS. I could see one of our protocols boosts WS and BS of Canoptekh units across the board for instance.

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Let's assume for a moment that nothing changes in terms of Doomsday Arks, but that heavy destroyers disappear. Let's do some comparisons:

Canoptek Doomstalker is T6 W12 3+/5++, for 130 points.
Doomsday Ark is T6 W14 4+ QS for 180 points.

Both basically have the same gun, with d6 S10 AP-5 Dd6 at a range covering most of the board, and a d6 S8 AP-2 D3 profile you hope to very rarely actually use. However, the Doomstalker is hard to hide, and hard to hide from - probably a wash. For secondary guns, the Doomsday Ark is obviously best, it has an additional 8 rapid fire shots at the same strength, making any comparison almost laughable. This makes the Doomsday Ark slightly better overall in terms of damage per point, but it's very marginal.

In terms of QS vs a 5++, it's not entirely clear which is better. Against a D3/Dd6 gun, QS is much better, but against D2/Dd3, you tend to want that 5++. Again, I'd likely call it a wash but the Doomsday Ark has to take it as low damage guns usually have worse AP, barring plasma, meaning you save then QS which is clearly better. That said, you're paying 50 points, so ~38.5% more for ~16.7% more wounds and QS. The Doomstalker also doesn't get living metal which is a real shame.

So, all this seems pretty even. Now here comes the killer: the way they suffer damage. The Doomstalker never loses BS skill as it degrades, meaning you're always firing at full effectiveness until you die; conversely, the Doomsday Ark loses BS when it hits half wounds. It shouldn't come into effect very often, as people really should aim to kill both on the turn they start shooting them, but if that doesn't happen, that's a major advantage to the Doomstalker. Likewise, the Doomstalker doesn't potentially explode and kill your own stuff which is very nice. Final observation - it doesn't say the Doomstalker's gun is blast, and it's a monster; potential for cheesing it against some opponents and charging into combat with an overextended tank? Not an ideal move, but not being totally crippled in combat is a bonus.

Overall, it's cheaper and does a similar job. I expect them to become the go to tank killer, and I've very happy about that because it's an awesome looking model. Really cool stuff and a welcome effective points cut on our anti-tank, it's really nasty.

Now for the bad one.
The Lokhust Heavy Destroyer is T5 W4 3+ for 70 points.
Heavy Destroyers are T5 W3 3+ for 40 points.

Heavy Destroyers fire 2 S9 AP-4 Dd6 shots. Lokhust Heavy Destroyers fire 1 S10 AP-4 D3d3 shot. I hope it doesn't need to be said, but clearly option 1 is superior, and not by a small margin. For comparison, against a Leman Russ, the expectation for the first is 2(7/9)(2/3)3.5 = 98/27 = ~3.63 damage; the second does (7/9)(2/3)6 = 28/9 = ~3.11. That's a 16.7% less efficient shot with higher variance (lol at BS3+ still, on a single shot 70 point model, thanks GW) for a 12.5% decrease in price. The Lokhust loses the comparison handily.

Survivability - I mean, do I have to? You can tell the difference between 4 and 6 wounds, right? You have ~66.7% of your wounds for 87.5% of the points. That's awful. Heavy Destroyers already got deleted, this is even worse for nearly the same points. No.

Bonus round: it's also slower for no discernible reason! Hurray, a pointless nerf on a unit which was already worse than other factions equivalents! In short, they took a model which was often avoided for the Doomsday Ark, made a cheaper Doomsday Ark, and made this bad. It might be useable at 50 points, in Chapter Approved 2021. Until then, bin. Don't even get me started on the hot gak that is the enmitic annihilator, which isn't even as good at the destroyers gun against anything with W2, and destroyers are also not played. The rules make no sense for this guy unless there's some secret hidden ability which just makes you autohit - and even then, it's not great. I'm trying to even figure out what would make it playable at 70 points with T5 W4, maybe like a 4++? Even then, kinda awful. I dunno, bad design.


At least the cooler looking one is amazing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/03 22:15:11


 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 Platuan4th wrote:
 Vector Strike wrote:
The Enmitic is a worse Autocannon with more shots

But it seems clear this is will replace the current destroyers


The current Heavy Destroyers, sure. There's most likely a not-ETB Lokhust Destroyer kit that will replace the standard Destroyers.

I'm thinking that the Lokhust Heavy Destroyer with the Enmitic Exterminator is the replacement for the 'normal' Destroyer with Gauss Cannon.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon




UK

In what world do Heavy Destroyers get 2 shots with their guns?

Nazi punks feth off 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 Ghaz wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Vector Strike wrote:
The Enmitic is a worse Autocannon with more shots

But it seems clear this is will replace the current destroyers


The current Heavy Destroyers, sure. There's most likely a not-ETB Lokhust Destroyer kit that will replace the standard Destroyers.

I'm thinking that the Lokhust Heavy Destroyer with the Enmitic Exterminator is the replacement for the 'normal' Destroyer with Gauss Cannon.


Probably wouldn't need to call it a Lokhust Heavy Destroyer if that was the case.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

 Bosskelot wrote:
In what world do Heavy Destroyers get 2 shots with their guns?


Pretty sure he is calculating 2 heavy d's since they are roughly the same cost as one Lokhust.

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6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
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Made in us
Deranged Necron Destroyer




 Sasori wrote:
 Bosskelot wrote:
In what world do Heavy Destroyers get 2 shots with their guns?


Pretty sure he is calculating 2 heavy d's since they are roughly the same cost as one Lokhust.

Yeah, exactly this, sorry for being unclear. In any case, it's a significant nerf to them for, as far as I can see, no reason at all. 1 S10 shot is just awful, you increase variance by so much.
   
Made in gb
Freaky Flayed One





 Ghaz wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Vector Strike wrote:
The Enmitic is a worse Autocannon with more shots

But it seems clear this is will replace the current destroyers


The current Heavy Destroyers, sure. There's most likely a not-ETB Lokhust Destroyer kit that will replace the standard Destroyers.

I'm thinking that the Lokhust Heavy Destroyer with the Enmitic Exterminator is the replacement for the 'normal' Destroyer with Gauss Cannon.

I wouldn't be so sure. Unless they are are effectively making all current destroyers heavy support and then out fast attack slot will lost its only heavy hitter leaving us with wraiths, scarabs and tomb blades.

The Enmitic Exterminator has on average 6 shots, which wound better against T6 or higher models but have a much lower ap and damage for 70pts versus the current destroyers 55pts.

Also it has heavy in its name, if they were replacing both why not call it lohkust Destroyer, the Doomsday Ark isn't called heavy doosmday ark just cause its heavily armed
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Bosskelot wrote:
The lack of blast definitely seems like an oversight and will probably be FAQ'd.


Actually, I think it might be intentional.
A lot of people here are saying there's no point in taking DDA because the Doomstalker has pretty much the same weapon, except shorter ranged.
What I'm thinking is that GW foresaw this, so they gave the Doomsday Cannon blast but left it out for the blaster variant, meaning that if you want anti-hoard you still want to take DDAs.

What I have
~4100
~1660

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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Bosskelot wrote:
The lack of blast definitely seems like an oversight and will probably be FAQ'd.


Actually, I think it might be intentional.
A lot of people here are saying there's no point in taking DDA because the Doomstalker has pretty much the same weapon, except shorter ranged.
What I'm thinking is that GW foresaw this, so they gave the Doomsday Cannon blast but left it out for the blaster variant, meaning that if you want anti-hoard you still want to take DDAs.

It's also possible that they wanted the blast for this variant to be tied to a stratagem.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From the Necron Codex thread in News & Rumors (for those considering a Szarekhan dynasty army)

Spoiler:

I'm not sure how I feel about the black body along with the silver and brass colors on the Canopteks...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/04 01:45:34


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

It's too bad the rules are cut off for the heavy destroyer might really make a difference in our estimations of it. It probably has living metal, RP, no penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, and reroll ones to hit.

At 3d3 shots the exterminator ends up with on average being a str 7 twin linked heavy bolter. That should be no less than 20 points (10 per heavy bolter) at the going rate, so we'll call it a 25 point weapon since the strength is higher. That means we are paying 45 points for the heavy destroyer chassis, which puts it into line with the outriders from indomitus who are also t5 and 4 wounds.

So I can see how they arrived at that price, and it's not unreasonable for what you get, however I'm just not sold on it. Barring any specific stratagems, I don't think these guys are as cost effective as other options we have. They feel kind of iffy even with extermination protocols because of the small unit size and the high variability in number of shots and/or damage.

I think they might be 5 to 10 points too high, so enough that you won't see them in hyper competitive armies, but a small enough cost overrun that you don't have to feel dumb running them *cough cough*Obelisk.

Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Bosskelot wrote:
The lack of blast definitely seems like an oversight and will probably be FAQ'd.


Actually, I think it might be intentional.
A lot of people here are saying there's no point in taking DDA because the Doomstalker has pretty much the same weapon, except shorter ranged.
What I'm thinking is that GW foresaw this, so they gave the Doomsday Cannon blast but left it out for the blaster variant, meaning that if you want anti-hoard you still want to take DDAs.


You don't shoot dda at horde. Blast in dda is liability.

Still i would be asking why would i take stalker over dda. Worse guns, worse survivability. Only benefit is lack of blast.

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Death-Dealing Devastator




Chicago, IL

Worse Ballistic Skill as well.

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Made in gb
Stubborn Hammerer




Weston-super-mare

Yeah bs4 is what kills it for me and lack of speed compared to a dda. Dda just have too much versatility as they cover anti tank and horde. I also hope we keep the old destroyers not liking the new weapons/price
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Grimgold wrote:
It's too bad the rules are cut off for the heavy destroyer might really make a difference in our estimations of it. It probably has living metal, RP, no penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, and reroll ones to hit.

At 3d3 shots the exterminator ends up with on average being a str 7 twin linked heavy bolter. That should be no less than 20 points (10 per heavy bolter) at the going rate, so we'll call it a 25 point weapon since the strength is higher. .

A more apt comparison is the Particle Shredder- that other gun option on the Triarch Stalker. Heavy6 S7, Ap-1, d3 damage. That's actually better due to the damage stat, and I don't think people have really taken it much.
That is sitting at 25 points in CA2020

The big gun will average a lot of damage, but single shot for 70 freaking points is very high. You can almost fit two (current) heavy destroyers at that price.
I'm assuming it gets those rules you mention and it still seems overpriced in comparison to other things in the codex. And now we have evidence that existing units are also being improved, so that muddies the water further.


For the Doomstalker vs DDA debate. I wonder what the 'mini death rays' on the new Monolith are going to look like.
They're changing up this codex in ways I didn't anticipate.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Still a lot of comparisons and comments without seeing the full picture of all the new protocols and dynastic rules in the new codex. There may be something to make the new heavy destroyer seems a little less of a liability... or maybe not. I guess we'll find out in October.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

Voss wrote:
 Grimgold wrote:
It's too bad the rules are cut off for the heavy destroyer might really make a difference in our estimations of it. It probably has living metal, RP, no penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, and reroll ones to hit.

At 3d3 shots the exterminator ends up with on average being a str 7 twin linked heavy bolter. That should be no less than 20 points (10 per heavy bolter) at the going rate, so we'll call it a 25 point weapon since the strength is higher. .

A more apt comparison is the Particle Shredder- that other gun option on the Triarch Stalker. Heavy6 S7, Ap-1, d3 damage. That's actually better due to the damage stat, and I don't think people have really taken it much.
That is sitting at 25 points in CA2020

The big gun will average a lot of damage, but single shot for 70 freaking points is very high. You can almost fit two (current) heavy destroyers at that price.
I'm assuming it gets those rules you mention and it still seems overpriced in comparison to other things in the codex. And now we have evidence that existing units are also being improved, so that muddies the water further.


For the Doomstalker vs DDA debate. I wonder what the 'mini death rays' on the new Monolith are going to look like.
They're changing up this codex in ways I didn't anticipate.


I saw something about new vs old destroyer being samey in terms of damage inflicted compared to the old heavy gauss cannon variety. Let me check the math

New destroyer v t8 3+
(2/3 + (1/6 * 2/3)) * 2/3 * 6 = 3.1 average damage per shot

Old destroyer v t8 3+
(2/3 + (1/6 * 2/3)) * 2/3 * 3.5 = 1.8 average damage per shot

So you end up with 22 points spent per damage on the new guy, vs 22 points spent per damage on the old guy. It's like GW can do math, and intentionally put the new heavy destroyer and the old heavy destroyer into the same performance band. The issue is I don't know if you get a proportional amount of toughness out of the new units, and this is a little harder to pin down. Damage per shot doesn't really work in these calcs since there can be significant wastage down range, so instead let's figure out the average number of hits it takes to kill each of them and compare that to the number of points per unit:

The old heavy destroyer has a 1/3 chance of surviving one las cannon hit, and a 1/36 chance of surviving two. that means a 66% chance of a one hit kill, a 30% chance of a two hit kill, and 3% chance of taking three hits. so an average of 1.32 hits per kill.

The new heavy destroyer has a 1/2 chance of surviving on las cannon hit, a 1/6 chance of surviving two, and a 1/216 chance of surviving three hits. so that means 50% chance of a one hit kill, 42% chance of taking two hits, a 7.6% chance of a three hit kill, and a 0.4% chance of a four hit kill. so 1.7 hits to a kill

old heavy destroyer It take 1.32 hits to kill a 40 point unit so 30 points per shot
new heavy destroyer it takes 1.7 hits to kill a 70 point unit so 41 points per shot
old normal destroyer it takes 1.32 hots to kill a 55 point unit so 41 points per shot

Again I don't think the numbers lining up exactly is a coincidence, they wanted the new heavy destroyer to have the offensive profile of the old heavy destroyer and the defensive profile of a normal destroyer against the weapon type it will most commonly face.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/04 07:50:46


Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon




UK

I think you need to be careful in comparing them points-wise too as, yes, the old HD is almost half the cost, but you're still only taking them in units of 1-3. How many times were you taking multiple units of HD's to begin with?

Nazi punks feth off 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





After CA19 3x3 was popular to replace the 3 doom scythes previously used.

(and besides point efficiency is always important)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/04 08:15:08


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in no
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





 Grimgold wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Grimgold wrote:
It's too bad the rules are cut off for the heavy destroyer might really make a difference in our estimations of it. It probably has living metal, RP, no penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, and reroll ones to hit.

At 3d3 shots the exterminator ends up with on average being a str 7 twin linked heavy bolter. That should be no less than 20 points (10 per heavy bolter) at the going rate, so we'll call it a 25 point weapon since the strength is higher. .

A more apt comparison is the Particle Shredder- that other gun option on the Triarch Stalker. Heavy6 S7, Ap-1, d3 damage. That's actually better due to the damage stat, and I don't think people have really taken it much.
That is sitting at 25 points in CA2020

The big gun will average a lot of damage, but single shot for 70 freaking points is very high. You can almost fit two (current) heavy destroyers at that price.
I'm assuming it gets those rules you mention and it still seems overpriced in comparison to other things in the codex. And now we have evidence that existing units are also being improved, so that muddies the water further.


For the Doomstalker vs DDA debate. I wonder what the 'mini death rays' on the new Monolith are going to look like.
They're changing up this codex in ways I didn't anticipate.


I saw something about new vs old destroyer being samey in terms of damage inflicted compared to the old heavy gauss cannon variety. Let me check the math

New destroyer v t8 3+
(2/3 + (1/6 * 2/3)) * 2/3 * 6 = 3.1 average damage per shot

Old destroyer v t8 3+
(2/3 + (1/6 * 2/3)) * 2/3 * 3.5 = 1.8 average damage per shot

So you end up with 22 points spent per damage on the new guy, vs 22 points spent per damage on the old guy. It's like GW can do math, and intentionally put the new heavy destroyer and the old heavy destroyer into the same performance band. The issue is I don't know if you get a proportional amount of toughness out of the new units, and this is a little harder to pin down. Damage per shot doesn't really work in these calcs since there can be significant wastage down range, so instead let's figure out the average number of hits it takes to kill each of them and compare that to the number of points per unit:

The old heavy destroyer has a 1/3 chance of surviving one las cannon hit, and a 1/36 chance of surviving two. that means a 66% chance of a one hit kill, a 30% chance of a two hit kill, and 3% chance of taking three hits. so an average of 1.32 hits per kill.

The new heavy destroyer has a 1/2 chance of surviving on las cannon hit, a 1/6 chance of surviving two, and a 1/216 chance of surviving three hits. so that means 50% chance of a one hit kill, 42% chance of taking two hits, a 7.6% chance of a three hit kill, and a 0.4% chance of a four hit kill. so 1.7 hits to a kill

old heavy destroyer It take 1.32 hits to kill a 40 point unit so 30 points per shot
new heavy destroyer it takes 1.7 hits to kill a 70 point unit so 41 points per shot
old normal destroyer it takes 1.32 hots to kill a 55 point unit so 41 points per shot

Again I don't think the numbers lining up exactly is a coincidence, they wanted the new heavy destroyer to have the offensive profile of the old heavy destroyer and the defensive profile of a normal destroyer against the weapon type it will most commonly face.


Could you say something about the variance of the damage output.

It can be nice to be able to bring some stable and some variable damage dealers. For example you start your shooting by firing the higher variance shooters, proabbly the HDs, and lo and behold, they roll 5 and 6 for their D6 damages. Now you can go with lower damage output units to fininsh the LRBT off. On the other hand, if you roll 1 and 2 for the damage, then right, you bring in the cavalry to finish them off any way. Allows you to better capitalize on luck.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




The Lokhust just seems kind of bad unless it has some special rules beyond reroll 1s to hit. 70 points for one shot - with a huge chance to do nothing - is generally bad while I think its fair to say an average of 6 S7 AP-1 D1 shots is flat out *awful*.

The Doomstrider as people have said is probably more debatable - but I find the lack of special rules on the datasheet (beyond a 5++) a bit odd. I think losing 8 gauss flayers from the DDA (at BS 3+) is also not without consequence.
   
Made in us
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The best State-Texas

 bennyboy6189 wrote:
Yeah bs4 is what kills it for me and lack of speed compared to a dda. Dda just have too much versatility as they cover anti tank and horde. I also hope we keep the old destroyers not liking the new weapons/price


We can Buff BS now with MWBD but here is a list of Pros

+Invuln save is very useful against the Meta of Plasma and Autocannon weapons
+It's BS does not degrade
+ It does not have blast- Which is a benefit in nearly all cases for a weapon like this
+ 48' range is more than ample with the new tablesize
+ Better base Armor Save
+ it's 50 points cheaper than the DDA

- No QS means it's more vulnerable to dedicated AT weapons
- Starts at BS4
- Does not have the Flayer Arrays
-Suffers more than the DDA when it has to move.

The Unit itself stands up pretty well point per point on anti-tank. Only a few units, like Eradicators, are significantly better.

I really think people are sleeping on this, I could see taking these instead of DDA, or mix and matching them for sure.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/04 13:58:40


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 Grimgold wrote:
It's too bad the rules are cut off for the heavy destroyer might really make a difference in our estimations of it. It probably has living metal, RP, no penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, and reroll ones to hit.

At 3d3 shots the exterminator ends up with on average being a str 7 twin linked heavy bolter. That should be no less than 20 points (10 per heavy bolter) at the going rate, so we'll call it a 25 point weapon since the strength is higher. That means we are paying 45 points for the heavy destroyer chassis, which puts it into line with the outriders from indomitus who are also t5 and 4 wounds.

So I can see how they arrived at that price, and it's not unreasonable for what you get, however I'm just not sold on it. Barring any specific stratagems, I don't think these guys are as cost effective as other options we have. They feel kind of iffy even with extermination protocols because of the small unit size and the high variability in number of shots and/or damage.

I think they might be 5 to 10 points too high, so enough that you won't see them in hyper competitive armies, but a small enough cost overrun that you don't have to feel dumb running them *cough cough*Obelisk.


Heavy bolters are 15 points on vehicle platforms, which these act more like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
 Grimgold wrote:
It's too bad the rules are cut off for the heavy destroyer might really make a difference in our estimations of it. It probably has living metal, RP, no penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, and reroll ones to hit.

At 3d3 shots the exterminator ends up with on average being a str 7 twin linked heavy bolter. That should be no less than 20 points (10 per heavy bolter) at the going rate, so we'll call it a 25 point weapon since the strength is higher. .




For the Doomstalker vs DDA debate. I wonder what the 'mini death rays' on the new Monolith are going to look like.
They're changing up this codex in ways I didn't anticipate.


Which is great, it is looking like you can take an army of single selections and not feel like your playing with 75% garbage.

I like the idea of heaving a DDA, a Doomstalker, a Monolith and a triarch stalker all in the same army rather then spamming DDA's every time. I am ware thats still just as valid and points will vary but it's nice to see a variety of the cool models in an army that actually functions well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/04 14:31:37


   
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Working on it

I really like the stats on the Doomstalker, if you want dedicated AT and need the points, its the go to, the DDA is still the better all rounder in my opinion.

I mainly like it because it allows me to put AT in my all Canoptek list beyond the Tomb Sentiel and the Seraptek.

The Lokhust destroyer is nice, the Gauss is certainly enticing, but the Enmitic weapon is, a little disappointing honestly, I wouldve expected S7 AP2 D1 but with Assault 2d6 or 4d3, at least with 4d3 shots not having blast is a boon.

It is what it is, they look good and I'm interested to see the normal Lokhust and Lokhust Lord

<Dynasty> ~10500pts
War Coven of the Coruscating Gaze ~3000pts
Thrice-Damned Plague Corps ~3250pts
Admech (TBN) ~3500pts +30k Bots and Ulator

 
   
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Same can be said that you can buff dda to hit on 2s. Also with the new force organisation I'm always Gunna run a battalion with necrons those 3 heavy support choices are to valuable to waste on them. And if I got a spare 130points or so I would rather add a triarch stalker than the doomstalker.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/04 14:44:26


 
   
 
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