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If it was a good game (i never played it), and people liked it... GW just droped the ball, they just dont want to give support to the game. It is a very smart move...
And space corridor with humans vs aliens will be incredible, lets play Aliens (Mantic should be smart there, Dark Horse or Warner Bross could issue them fo copyright infringinment...)
If my post show some BAD spelling issues, please forgive-me, english is not my natural language, and i never received formal education on it...
My take on Demiurgs (enjoy the reading):
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/537654.page Please, if you think im wrong, correct me (i will try to take it constructively).
Considering Space Hulk is basically Aliens: The Board Game, and nobody got in trouble for that, I wouldn't expect them to get a lawsuit or anything. Pretty much every science fiction game, board or video, has taken a lot of influence from Aliens to the point of straight up ripping it off or quoting it directly. As long as the aliens in question don't look like the xenomorphs, "kinda futuristic soldiers vs. bug things" is pretty safe ground.
A small note on Jake Thornton's blog about the development of the new 'Project Pandora' board game:
I spent this afternoon playing Project Pandora: Grim Cargo with Ronnie. After some awkwardness to start with, she’s suddenly decided to behave herself. Yay!
I’ve talked before about the variable helpfulness of different game designs, and this was another variation of awkward. I could always see the game lurking within the tangle, and it’s nice to see it finally doing what I wanted it to from the start. We’ve been playing the first training mission a lot. Like the first scenario from each of the Dwarf King’s Hold starter sets I’ve aimed to make it a scenario that you can play again and again as you fine tune your tactics and (in this case) go for a high score. It’s proving very popular with the testers who keep asking for “just one more go”, and this is exactly the response you hope for. Once you move onto the other scenarios you get some extra features and the game gets a little more involved, so it’s a really good idea to get a firm grounding of the basic tactics on the training ground, before they try to rip your head off for real.
scarletsquig wrote:
5 games will be released in 2012:
- KoW 3rd edition Hardback rulebook (yes, the rules will still be free online)
I don't much like the sound of this. Hardback rulebook means it'll cost quite a bit. I guess it's for Mantic Fanatics/Fanbois who want a collector's edition item? Either way, I'm not so sure it's the best way to go for a new game that's trying to establish itself - a softcover rulebook would be much more appropriate IMO. I'm assuming that in order to go from 3-page pamphlet to hardcover book it'll include all the army lists, as well as a painting and modelling guide (in conjunction with Army Painter?) and maybe a battle report or two to act as filler.
- 2.0 Warpath rules (likely to be similar to the 2.0 KoW release with updated rules and 8 army lists)
So don't buy WP under any circumstances since it'll be reissued later? Check! Will they add in proper sc-fi legs for the dorfs?
- 5th game. Total Wildcard, current leading rumour is "fantasy football game".
Worth noting at this point that elf scouts, dwarf ironclad command, orc greatax and zombies/ghouls all come with options to build them open-handed, without any weapons, so it is theoretically possible for mantic to go ahead and launch a new fantasy football game with 4 teams in plastic (and a bunch of supporting metals) right away with minimal effort.
/facepalm. The only way I see this working is if it comes with a cool board (see BB 2nd Ed's "Asrogranite" board) and/or two really nicely sculpted teams - rather than rehashing their plastics with minimal changes (like they did with WP) - it's already easy enough to buy a WFB fantasy box and make a kick-arse looking Blood Bowl team - they'd need to do better than that with the models, quite frankly. - specifically adding mucho American Football-styled gear.
scarletsquig wrote:
5 games will be released in 2012:
- KoW 3rd edition Hardback rulebook (yes, the rules will still be free online)
I don't much like the sound of this. Hardback rulebook means it'll cost quite a bit. I guess it's for Mantic Fanatics/Fanbois who want a collector's edition item? Either way, I'm not so sure it's the best way to go for a new game that's trying to establish itself - a softcover rulebook would be much more appropriate IMO. I'm assuming that in order to go from 3-page pamphlet to hardcover book it'll include all the army lists, as well as a painting and modelling guide (in conjunction with Army Painter?) and maybe a battle report or two to act as filler.
- 2.0 Warpath rules (likely to be similar to the 2.0 KoW release with updated rules and 8 army lists)
So don't buy WP under any circumstances since it'll be reissued later? Check! Will they add in proper sc-fi legs for the dorfs?
So you mean don't buy the WP rules now? Sorry I'm being deliberately difficult there...
If KoW is anything to go buy it will probably just be small changes to the rules, certainly not a fundamental overhaul. They've been getting feedback on what people think of the current rules and will go from there I imagine.
There is a pack coming out in a few months I believe which is a resin/plastic kits which has an upgrade, including armoured legs (not skirt) and helmeted heads for every dwarf in a standard Forge Father kit. This is the one I'm waiting for actually to do an entire 'counts as' SM force using armoured stunties
- KoW is not a 3-page pamphlet currently, it's a full-colour 48-page rulebook + army lists mini-book given away free in every army box that mantic sells (which you can buy a copy of separately for £5 if you don't want to get an army box).
- This will still happen once the rules are updated, they just put the new version in the boxes.
- As for not buying warpath because the rules get updated next year... you can't buy the warpath rules right now anyway, the only option is "free". :p
Mantic update their rules and army lists on a yearly basis, to improve the game and balance the army lists. Updating is no big deal, and can be as simple as hitting a button on the printer, it's not like you're having to buy £35 rulebook + series of £25 army books here.
The rules are free and/or cheap, it's only £5 to buy a softcover copy of the KoW rules that comes with the army boxes, or you can print out a downloaded copy. Warpath will likely be the same.
Also, realistically speaking, from experience, Mantic gives away so many copies of the rules in its army sets that you tend to end up with several physical copies of the rules anyway. I have 4 copies of 1st edition, and 2 copies of 2nd edition currently, and that's after giving away a few. It tends to not be a massive issue IRL.
And finally, the best option is just throwing a rules .pdf on to your phone. Zero effort at all.
Are you actually genuinely, completely and utterly seriously seeing free rules and army lists which are regularly updated on a fixed schedule as a bad thing?
It's one of the best things about the company IMO, not having to wait for eons for any broken rules to be fixed, and there being an actual desire to create a fun and balanced tournament game.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2012/01/08 11:16:05
scarletsquig wrote:- KoW is not a 3-page pamphlet currently, it's a full-colour 48-page rulebook + army lists mini-book given away free in every army box that mantic sells (which you can buy a copy of separately for £5 if you don't want to get an army box).
- This will still happen once the rules are updated, they just put the new version in the boxes.
- As for not buying warpath because the rules get updated next year... you can't buy the warpath rules right now anyway, the only option is "free". :p
Mantic update their rules and army lists on a yearly basis, to improve the game and balance the army lists. Updating is no big deal, and can be as simple as hitting a button on the printer, it's not like you're having to buy £35 rulebook + series of £25 army books here.
The rules are free and/or cheap, it's only £5 to buy a softcover copy of the KoW rules that comes with the army boxes, or you can print out a downloaded copy. Warpath will likely be the same.
Also, realistically speaking, from experience, Mantic gives away so many copies of the rules in its army sets that you tend to end up with several physical copies of the rules anyway. I have 4 copies of 1st edition, and 2 copies of 2nd edition currently, and that's after giving away a few. It tends to not be a massive issue IRL.
Are you actually genuinely, completely and utterly seriously seeing free rules and army lists which are regularly updated on a fixed schedule as a bad thing?
It's one of the best things about the company IMO, not having to wait for eons for any broken rules to be fixed, and there being an actual desire to create a fun and balanced tournament game.
My 3-page quote is based on the one I got in my Morgoth's Revenge box that I ordered and received not 6 months ago. Maybe it's 6 pages? Tiny pamphlet, either way. I can't be bothered going and looking for it. I do have to say that I was incredibly disappointed when I saw it as the boxed set was all "rules included - so I was expecting something more substantial - something more like the 40k or FoW mini-rulebooks, or at least like the one that came with the Warmachine Starter. Not a few sheets of paper. - I just went and had a look for the box, but I can't find it. I must have put it into storage when I did a cleanup about 2 months ago. The dwarfs will be inside, since I took all the undead out, as they're much nicer models and I'll be doing them up for LotR.
Multiple rules copies isn't an issue if you buy tons of their stuff? Fair enough. I'm not likely to be buying a lot of army sets. Though I'm interested in that £150 Corporation set. If they show us some more figures, that is...
Free rules and regular updates are fine, I just can't see the point in going for an expensive hardcover rulebook when softcovers will do the job just as well without the expense of a hardcover print run. And really, if you're on a slow burn schedule like I am as far as finding time to get around to painting and playing with miniatures, re-releasing the starter box within a year (or annually) is a good way to put it into a "eh, maybe later" pattern indefinitely. Doesn't matter for me, I guess, since I don't much like the Orks or the Dwarfs, and I'm not likely to ever get around to trying out their game. £5 is reasonable for a printed copy, I guess. Is it 50 pages + army lists or 50 inclusive of Army lists? How many pages in total?
56 pages (including all 8 army lists), full colour, £5 (or free, included in every army box/ from your printer/ as a .pdf file on your phone).
What exactly else is it that mantic can provide? Free digital copy, cheap softcover copy, upcoming hardback copy. I'm not seeing any other option that they can actually provide.
It's highly likely that this softcover variant (with an update to 3rd edition) will remain on sale and continue to be included in army boxes even after the hardback is on sale.
It's a big improvement over the 1st edition rules pamphlet (the one that you have from your Morgoth's Revenge set).
Warpath is currently in pamphlet format for it's initial release, and will probably get the booklet treatment when its rules are updated.
What I will say is that it's impossible to please everyone - you might be interested to know that I've also debated this same topic in the past with 2 other people with the polar opposite opinion to yours - they wanted Mantic to stop putting rules in their army boxes and include more miniatures instead (one said it was pointless because you can just print them out for free, and another said it was pointless because they wanted the models to play warhammer, "not mantic's crappy rip-off").
Similarly, there have been lots of people specifically asking mantic to make hardback books, because they want a "proper" rulebook "like the GW ones".
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2012/01/09 09:55:29
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Scipio you seem to want to find fault where there is none....
+1
You can say a lot of bad stuff about Mantic, but critizing regularly updated rules being available in multiple formats is silly. Just bash them for their ugly minis (dwarves, orks, elves, space-dwarfs, space-orks etc) instead
scarletsquig wrote:Alternatively, you could argue that the company started off by offering a radically new and unique-looking line of models (the elves) that absolutely nobody bought because they didn't look anything like the GW models.
So, then they had to change up their business model to ape GW more closely before anyone would buy their stuff in large enough quantities to warrant plastics production.
The market is not Mantic's fault.
At the end of the day everyone just wants cheaper warhammer minis and nothing else, try personally investing £100k+ of your own money to release a new and radically unique range of really well-conceptualized plastic miniatures with top-notch sculpting, excellent background accompanied by a brilliant game... and you will fail hard because the market will look at your work and think "can't use it with warhammers, pass".
Ask any sculptor or manufacturer if they would consider making a plastic kit that had zero GW-usage and you'll probably get a "well, ideally, I'd love to, but..." kinda answer.
Bastion is the only current exception I can think of that isn't part of the pre-painted/ board game market, and they've already gone bankrupt once.
Sorry man I have to disagree with you on the " Ask any sculptor or manufacturer if they would consider making a plastic kit that had zero GW-usage and you'll probably get a "well, ideally, I'd love to, but..." kinda answer" part.
There are plenty of companys out there in 6mm,10mm,15mm,20mm who do outstanding work and the thought never crossed their mind ' Can this be used in a GW game?" once.
Personally I think mantic is like any other company, they have some good stuff, and they have some stinkers. They are still relitivley young so hopefully there sculpting improves ( im not saying it bad just that it's good for your company and your customers if sculpts improve over time) and their use of CAD helps them improve their model line over time.
One question who does their plastic casting Renedra? Do they also do the metal 'plastic injection' molds or are those done elsewhere?
@SS, you seem to be really 'into' mantic that is awsome. I am the same way about Ambush Alley Games, I switched from GW to them and I have never looked back. Isn't it awsome to be a TTWG'er these days? We are soooo spoiled for choices and options,
Does Mantic have their own fourms? Do the game developers just randomally show up there and answer questions and carry on conversations with people? If they do I know what it's like and it feels damn good to be appriciated as a customer doesn't it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/10 09:01:06
FabricatorGeneralMike wrote: Does Mantic have their own fourms? Do the game developers just randomally show up there and answer questions and carry on conversations with people? If they do I know what it's like and it feels damn good to be appriciated as a customer doesn't it?
They do, they also show up on Dakka, Warseer, and 'Mantic Fanatics' from time to time.
There are plenty of companys out there in 6mm,10mm,15mm,20mm who do outstanding work and the thought never crossed their mind ' Can this be used in a GW game?" once.
My statement strictly applied to plastic miniatures and absolutely nothing else.
If you're talking about metal or resin then yes, there are hundreds of different companies making excellent and utterly unique sculpts.
None of them would risk spending most of their life savings on a plastic mould for some of their models though, because they know that they simply wouldn't sell anywhere near enough models to pay back the cost of the mould.
Metal moulds cost $$$, plastic moulds cost $$$$$. You need to sell XX metal models to pay back your mould costs, whereas with plastic, you need to sell XXXXX models.
To do this, you need low RRP prices and/or a highly popular range of miniatures. Which, realisitically speaking, means that the models must be GW-compatible to make up the sales volumes needed.
And yeah, I'm pretty well into mantic myself. I really like what they're doing, I probably would have lost interest in wargaming altogether if it wasn't for them. I also would have lost interest in modern animation if it wasn't for My Little Pony, but that's another story altogether...
Their communication is great, regular blog posts and forum posts by the staff. Hundreds of people have had the chance to chat to the CEO, game designers and artists, they attend a large amount of events in the UK, Europe and America. There's excellent communication and feedback going on about rules issues, army list balance etc. and in general they're trying to take everything that GW does wrong, and do it right instead. They aren't always perfect, but they do a good enough job for me.
And yeah, they do read forums, including this one!
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2012/01/10 11:41:07
There are plenty of companys out there in 6mm,10mm,15mm,20mm who do outstanding work and the thought never crossed their mind ' Can this be used in a GW game?" once.
That´s because most of them are historical companies. Regarding SF/Fantasy there is not much out there besides GW-proxy and D&D
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
I have been playtesting this game in the last 3 days and its good to introduce new players to 40k. I find after 750 points to be good for casual gaming.
The Forgefathers have a lack of cheap transport, because you need to use 2 heavy dakkars for transport.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/11 16:49:05
There are plenty of companys out there in 6mm,10mm,15mm,20mm who do outstanding work and the thought never crossed their mind ' Can this be used in a GW game?" once.
That´s because most of them are historical companies. Regarding SF/Fantasy there is not much out there besides GW-proxy and D&D
You probably have little knowledge of model ranges available if you think so.
Now I have better things to do than list all miniatures that are not made to be used in GW games or DnD so I just posted those you should know about already.
There are plenty of companys out there in 6mm,10mm,15mm,20mm who do outstanding work and the thought never crossed their mind ' Can this be used in a GW game?" once.
That´s because most of them are historical companies. Regarding SF/Fantasy there is not much out there besides GW-proxy and D&D
You probably have little knowledge of model ranges available if you think so...
Don't mean to jump on the bash-wagon, but there are tons of fantasy and sci-fi makers. The "D&D" statement isn't entirely fair. Most fantasy figs can be used with D&D but that's more about the huge scope of D&D than the interntion of the miniature maker.
Heres a few more makers and lines you should know about.
There are dozens of others and many more fantasy makers. If you get the itch to paint/collect something non-GW you can rejoice that you're smack in the middle of the golden age of miniatures.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/12 01:17:42
Sorry, but they are quite small in comparison to GW, even PP. The only one that comes even close is Battlefront. Most of them are 1-3 men businesses. And quite some rely on their miniatures being used for D&D and GW (Reaper e.g. is staking his whole business on this)
All of the listed companies together don´t even make half of the sales GW does in half a year in one year. And even in comparison to the many small historical businesses their numer is very small. You don´t realize how big historical TT is.
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Sorry, but they are quite small in comparison to GW, even PP. The only one that comes even close is Battlefront. Most of them are 1-3 men businesses. And quite some rely on their miniatures being used for D&D and GW (Reaper e.g. is staking his whole business on this)
[Citation needed]
Since you're so happily making assertions, let's see the numbers.
Arent we getting off topic? If you want to talk about the profits and sizes of other companies then why not make a topic in the general discussion or something. At the end of the day, people buy miniatures and companies make miniatures. Some companies make them more obvious to D&D and GW gamers, some dont, in the end we all have fun!
Oh theres a little video of mantics new office. A bit pointless but for those who like to be in touch with these fellows
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Scipio you seem to want to find fault where there is none....
Unfortunately, your posts generally make me have little interest in your opinions - you're too much of a cheerleader.
squiggy - if they're likely to keep the cheap rulebooks available, then I'd have no objection to the hardback. I like physical books, though I'm not a huge fan of being required to purchase expansive ones. If the 5 quid ones remain available, then I think it's a good compromise/result.
Isn´t it nice how some fall always back to names-calling when they lack arguments.
I actually don´t care what some think of me. I do work in this business, I do know where I stand and it earns me my daily Fish&Chips. Those who really care do know how reliable my numbers are, the rest, well if it strokes their ego being able to look down on others I am at least happy that I can provide them wih some good vibes .
@Kenshin
If you know what to look for the clip is full of interesting details... ... and they seem to have a rat infestation problem....
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/01/13 11:35:24
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
scipio.au wrote:
squiggy - if they're likely to keep the cheap rulebooks available, then I'd have no objection to the hardback. I like physical books, though I'm not a huge fan of being required to purchase expansive ones. If the 5 quid ones remain available, then I think it's a good compromise/result.
I agree, I'm really happy with the current £5 softback and hope it remains!
Duncan_Idaho wrote:If you know what to look for the clip is full of interesting details... ... and they seem to have a rat infestation problem....
Du hast eine rattenplage!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/14 13:35:10
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Sorry, but they are quite small in comparison to GW, even PP. The only one that comes even close is Battlefront. Most of them are 1-3 men businesses. And quite some rely on their miniatures being used for D&D and GW (Reaper e.g. is staking his whole business on this)
All of the listed companies together don´t even make half of the sales GW does in half a year in one year. And even in comparison to the many small historical businesses their numer is very small. You don´t realize how big historical TT is.
Don't sidestep the issue. You didn't start by saying anythign about the size of the companies, sales figures, etc. You said.
Regarding SF/Fantasy there is not much out there besides GW-proxy and D&D
And in response we showed you there is a multitude of products out there that are not GW or D&D proxys.
I'm not asking for some kind of apology. Just rejoice for today your eyes have been opened to the glory of the incredible diversity that is Sci-Fi and Fantasy Miniatures!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/14 01:11:02
Did...did you just write all that in the very same post in which you had to explain a term you had invented whole-cloth? Well done, sir. I bow to your trolling.
frozenwastes wrote:You need to revisit your studies of plastic science...*snip*
I apologise for not correcting this misconception when you raised it previously. Yes, 'resin' is used within the plastics manufacturing industry to refer to polymers before the final forming operation(s), at which point they become 'plastics'. No, this does not invalidate the use outside the industry of 'resin' to refer to thermosetting polymers and thermosets (nor the use within the modelmaking industry of 'plastic' to refer to thermoplastics only, though that is admittedly problematic). It should also be obvious why this cannot be the definition that Mantic is using. Have a cookie for discovering a context in which PVC can be considered a resin, lose a cookie for failing to realise that this would make PS a resin as well. Also lose a cookie for referring to PVC resin as a liquid; though the powder is available as an emulsion you appear to have simply garbled together the two definitions of 'resin'.
Actually there are some PVC resin that are delivered in liquid form as I can witness every time I visit a certain factory where a friend of mine works. There are also ones in powder-form.
Always depends and with new plastics developed virtually evey day no big deal either.
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
(Mantic should be smart there, Dark Horse or Warner Bross could issue them 
Sorry I'm being deliberately difficult there...
