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S&M Space Elves vs Large Hairy Men... I think I stumbled upon that convention once after choosing the wrong hotel to spend the night at...

I will agree that DE probably need new rules the most, just about as much as SW need a stand alone codex. I just find I can't care a lot since I don't care for space elves, spikey or other wise, and Space Wolves are sort of meh to me.
IG though, they are pretty cool. Traitor IG are even super cooler.

JohnHwangDD wrote:- Inquisition (needs to merge WH & DH, remove C: SM and C: IG references in favor of Greater and Lesser Conscripts)

I don't see why Inquisition needs inducted troops at all. They should get stormtroopers. That's it. If they want SM or IG units they should have to use Apocalypse just like everybody else.

dienekes96 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:None of the developers or sculptors care about DE, so they're just going to languish, regardless of the Internet whining.

Well, except for that Jes Goodwin guy. But who listens to him at GW??? He's just heads of plastics.

From the modeling that comes out, it would appear that Jes' loves are Craftworld Eldar and Space Marines. If Jes actually liked DE, the Warriors would be better and he would have sculpted the metals, rather than shuffling them of onto Morley as a rushed hack job.

I predict we'll get Hrud and Pan Fo before we get a new DE book.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
DE should be dead last (or else Squatted) unless their sales pick up. Personally, my money is on DE being Squatted in 6th or 7th Edition. None of the developers or sculptors care about DE, so they're just going to languish, regardless of the Internet whining.

That's slowed. Are you all bitter that DE haven't gotten "Squatted" in v5 because they're in the Rulebook?

In terms of "waiting for a codex" DE need it, and now with the V5 changes that the game is about to undergo, they need an update very badly. Under V4, their codex was very competitive when used right, under V5 their power level and build types are going to have to change dramatically in order to stay "competitive" and there's no indication that they will be nearly as good as they were before.

Perhaps *you're* slowed... I'm not bitter, because I'm confident that, in the end, DE will not be part of the 40k universe. I'm patient that way.

The very idea that DE are going to get a book to address power issues is nonsense. DE just don't sell well enough to get powered up. SM & Eldar, no-brainer, they'll get more power. IG and Orks are selling now, so they'll keep pace. But DE? Don't be ridiculous.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
From a "rules needs" standpoint the order should be like this:
- Space Wolves (requires Codex: SM)
- Necrons (needs 5th Ed. USRs)
- Inquisition (needs to merge WH & DH, remove C: SM and C: IG references in favor of Greater and Lesser Conscripts)
- Imperial Guard (needs major rebalancing and reconcepting for mobility)
- Dark Eldar (needs minor rules tweaks)

DE are the most impacted by far. Space Wolves probably get more competitive in v5 compared to where their rules are. So what if they need the new SM Dex, anything like that can be addressed via FAQ.

Necrons need it, but again not as badly as the DE do.

The Inquisition need consolidation and re-pointing/adjusting but nothing that is absolutely critical.

IG get much better in v5 and can afford to wait a tick, in terms of an army that needs rules updates, DE are it.

It appears you don't understand what I meant when I referenced rules. Rules means that the army is playable with a single Codex book, referencing the (soon-to-be) current Rulebook without any FAQs.

The DE aren't impacted at all from a rules perspective. Rules-wise, DE are fully playable with their current Codex because they date back to before Codices got amped up with lots of options and special rules. They're simple and uniform, like the new CSM. Actually, they're simpler than the new CSM...

From a power perspective, perhaps DE will suck, but that isn't important because GW is slowly strangling that army to death. Only an idiot would expect GW to revive DE with a new, high-powered tournament-competitive rulebook.

Now Space Wolves, rules-wise, they *are* a problem because they still require another Codex. They're the only Codex like this. The others (e.g. LATD, USF, ASL, SFreeks) have either been absorbed into the base Codex or killed outright. Because SW are mostly SM, they get a reprieve, and a DA-style Codex with their new upgrade sprue finally being released (what? you don't think GW isn't sitting on this ready to go?).

Inquisition is a rules mess. The Allies rules and restrictions are a disaster: can't take GK and SM; can't take SoB and SM; can't take SM and IG. And the questions are similarly messy: can Inducted Guard use Doctrines? Allied SM use Traits? Deathwatch? What a mess. An you potentially need to have C: DH, C: WH (they can ally with each other), along with C: SM or C:IG, *and* the WD for Deathwatch. That's way too many books. The Inquisition needs to be totally re-concepted, which is a *lot* of work. Plus, this is nearly all low-margin metal, so there's no desire to see this become a best-seller compared to an high-margin all-plastic range. So the low-hanging fruit (SW) goes first.

IG are easier to fix than Inquistition, and have the benefit of lots of Apocalypse sales seeding things, along with requiring vast amounts of highly-profitable plastic models to make an army. IG will definitely hit before Inquisition.

dienekes96 wrote:And they are working DE, but as they need a full redo, it's taking longer.

I keep hearing this for years, but I never see anything on this. You got a link to something concrete from GW? Like pictures of new models (not the Juan Diaz test pieces)? Or a playtest PDF floating the web? Or better yet, a statement from Jervis?

I keep hearing this for years, but I never see anything on this. You got a link to something concrete from GW? Like pictures of new models (not the Juan Diaz test pieces)? Or a playtest PDF floating the web? Or better yet, a statement from Jervis?

http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/01/news-comments-from-jervis.html

There's also rumors of a warrior test scuplt by Jes. Not the Juan Daiz stuff from the Spanish GD, there's been no actual pic (so yeah, just a minor rumor).

DE won't get squatted. Squat's went away because GW didn't like the overall feel and fluff and didn't know how to fix em. With the inclusion of DE in the 5ed rulebook, it is clear they have a vision for them.

Why then has it taken so long? Just look at Wood Elves, who languished in direct sales as GW was doing a full remake of their line. DE are bound to get the same treatment (and Brimstone at warseer has hinted as much in the Spain GD thread).

I predict we'll get Hrud and Pan Fo before we get a new DE book.

I predict your response when DE are released during 5ed is sig worthy.

I've been playing GW games for a long time now and I see a lot of parallels between the Dark Eldar and the Wood Elves. Both are wierd, non-standard armies. Wood Elves were the last to get a new AB, after Ogre Kingdoms no less. However, GW saw a place for them and after a bit of a re-envisioning, the Wood Elves not only have a fantastic line of new models, they also have skyrocketed to become one of the more popular armies (at least round these parts). Just proves that with GOOD models and GOOD rules, even an unpopular army will sell.

So please John, stop with the DE getting squatted, we all know it won't happen and frankly it's gotten stale.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Wasn't there also a policy that no codexes will get completely removed?

Yes, DE sales are flat. There are a lot of reasons, but IG were extremely scarce before the last codex and cadian range (not that they are common now). Orks showed that with a good book you can revitalize a nearly dead fanbase, and DA showed that even with a low power codex, some people will try to make pretty models work.

There isn't a ton of interest because everybody that wants the army has one, and there are enough in circulation that resales drive most demand. The army list has been figured out so there isn't a lot of tech advances. Finally, i think 4th edition hurt DE for a lot of reasons. More than any other army, they depended on LOS blocking terrain on turn 1. One bad table draw and losing first turn meant virtually instant lose. And, as has been widely reported, the models range from "ok" to "awful".

I see the new DE codex being a twisted reflection of the Ork one. Orks are an assaulty army with enough shooting to keep everybody honest. DE will be a shooting army with enough assault to finish the job.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The Inquisition needs to be totally re-concepted, which is a *lot* of work. Plus, this is nearly all low-margin metal, so there's no desire to see this become a best-seller compared to an high-margin all-plastic range.

This is probably the smartest thing I've ever seen you post JohnHwangDD. Space marines have the most plastics and thus the highest margins. If GW could get away with only selling space marines they would. The only reason other armies even exist is because space marine players need squishy opponents to squish. This is why 40K will always be dominated by marine players. GW would rather everyone play space marines and be done with it.

Considering this, I don't really see why they would want to invest a whole bunch of resources to create a new non-marine model range from scratch. And that's basically what would have to happen in order to redo DE. All the DE have to build on from previous editions is a proven track record of poor sales. I don't see how they would ever be able to get this one past the bean counters. GW might as well do Pan Fo - at least the Pan Fo have never failed.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

dienekes96 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:None of the developers or sculptors care about DE, so they're just going to languish, regardless of the Internet whining.

Well, except for that Jes Goodwin guy. But who listens to him at GW??? He's just heads of plastics.

From the modeling that comes out, it would appear that Jes' loves are Craftworld Eldar and Space Marines. If Jes actually liked DE, the Warriors would be better and he would have sculpted the metals, rather than shuffling them of onto Morley as a rushed hack job.

I predict we'll get Hrud and Pan Fo before we get a new DE book.

The last Marine Jes sculpted was 6 years ago.

Would you like to bet on the DE? The Goodwin thing is fact. Sorry. He's been working on their redesign for quite some time. And he was busy doing the Tac Sprue that laid the groundwork for the entire Marine range when Morley was working on the DE plastics eleven years. Please catch up to 2008 if we are going to discuss this.

I guess I'm not sure about this, but weren't DE sales pretty good for a number of years? I got into 40k in 2003, and DE were a legitimate army, more popular around here than Orks or IG. De also don't need a total redo, the raider kit only needs an accessory sprue, the reavers are fine, and the warriors, well, they need a completel redo. Add in a new plastic kit for wyches and you've got a good plastic range in the most popular units.

If there were no real plans for DE, they wouldn't be one of the armies featured in the 5th edition rulebook. I'm quite confident they wouldn't waste the effort if the army was going to remain mail-order only or move on to oblivion. The release of 5th would be the perfect time to kill them off if they were about to do it.

Orks weren't exactly posting record sales before their shiny new rules and models, either.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
From the modeling that comes out, it would appear that Jes' loves are Craftworld Eldar and Space Marines. If Jes actually liked DE, the Warriors would be better and he would have sculpted the metals, rather than shuffling them of onto Morley as a rushed hack job.

I predict we'll get Hrud and Pan Fo before we get a new DE book.

Can you say for sure what he likes/dislikes? Like Dienekes said, he was involved in a number of projects while the DE were being developed.

It's a vicious cycle. They are unwilling to invest in DE because it failed to pick up. Then again, I gather there wasn't that much of an investment, with 4 or so plastic kits and the rest being metal ones. It still has a loyal customer base, and probably people are fairly interested in them, but without new miniatures I can't see this happening.

Let's look at it this way, no army would sell if it had fugly miniatures. And 90% of the DE range is just that. Then again, how can we consider it a failure as an army, given that the investment was probably minimal? Space Marines keep selling because they keep getting investment.

And I've heard from lots of reliable people that DE are in the hands of Jes Goodwin. As for why no pics are available, I could see Jes' dislike of "ruined surprises" (remember the Death Jester?) as a contributing factor to this.

I see them as far from dead, they are covered in the new 40k book, with a revamped warrior (that may be a sign of things to come) and apparently some Comorragh drawings too. If it's dead, and is reviled by everyone, why would they commission Dave Gallagher to draw the warrior? And these pictures are generally based on something real, like the Kayvaan Shrike, Kharn, etc.

The logic goes like this:

No-one is buying DE.

We make new models and good rules.

Loads of people buy DE and we make money.

Sorted.

I really don't think it matters if an army "needs" a new codex or not. They'll release armies based on what they can sell, and then tailor the rules to sell more of what's new. Of course everyone wants to see new stuff for their favorite army.

I think DE will eventually get Wood-Elf-Ified, but not anytime soon.

New edition means new space marine codex. So they put out some shiney new marines and right when Xmas is about to strike.. "oh no! Another marine codex with even shineyer stuff! MOM! Buy it or I'll never take my ritalin again!!"

So them doing a space wolf codex IMO has nothing to do with rules needing an update and everything to do with selling more new marine stuff

Maybe I haven't been looking but I just haven't seen many space wolf rumors other than "they're coming", yet there's tons of posts about new guard stuff all over the web.. so that just lead me to believe guard might really be next. No way to really know for sure till the time comes I guess...

i believe the DE will make a return soon, who really knows(well the ones who do arent talking)..... but i think they do have a little love i mean they put them in the new dawn of war game, which i think was a ploy to judge how the consumer feels about them(love em or hate em)... however i do hope they get a redo because i have a couple years worth of ebay DE picked up real cheap and awaiting a good codex for the work to begin lol

Except that Marines sold and Orks didn't. So Marines got Codices and Orks didn't.

That only goes to show that when companies do things for money it ruins it for everyone else. SW don't need to be redone, they would do better doing a different army. SW need to just be mixed in with regular marines. GW just pushes marines cause its what the kiddies like. LAME

winterman wrote:http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/01/news-comments-from-jervis.html

There's also rumors of a warrior test scuplt by Jes.

DE won't get squatted. Squat's went away because GW didn't like the overall feel and fluff and didn't know how to fix em. With the inclusion of DE in the 5ed rulebook, it is clear they have a vision for them.

The BOLS reference is now 6 months old. If GW were really working on DE, we'd have something by now.

Same with Jes' test sculpt. There should be something.

DE wouldn't need to be squatted if Tau weren't created. But the Tau have taken the slot that the DE were meant to have.

Polonius wrote:Wasn't there also a policy that no codexes will get completely removed?

GW promises much. How long do you think GW will keep this promise?

dienekes96 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I predict we'll get Hrud and Pan Fo before we get a new DE book.

The last Marine Jes sculpted was 6 years ago.

Would you like to bet on the DE? The Goodwin thing is fact. Sorry. He's been working on their redesign for quite some time. And he was busy doing the Tac Sprue that laid the groundwork for the entire Marine range when Morley was working on the DE plastics eleven years. Please catch up to 2008 if we are going to discuss this.

If Jes' working on DE, then there should be something. Because it's been well over 2 years.

Destrado wrote:Can you say for sure what he likes/dislikes? Like Dienekes said, he was involved in a number of projects while the DE were being developed.

And I've heard from lots of reliable people that DE are in the hands of Jes Goodwin. As for why no pics are available, I could see Jes' dislike of "ruined surprises" (remember the Death Jester?) as a contributing factor to this.

I see them as far from dead, they are covered in the new 40k book, with a revamped warrior (that may be a sign of things to come) and apparently some Comorragh drawings too.

Jes has been drawing and sculpting SM and Eldar since Rogue Trader, and it would appear that he likes these two armies. Based on his position, one imagines that Jes has the ability to choose to work on practically whatever current project he wants to. What is GW going to say to their star sculptor and artist, without whom their universe doesn't exist? Tell him to sod off and give the putty to Blanche? If Jes liked DE, one imagines that it would have been his perogative to choose to sculpt them. Instead, he chose to do the Tactical SM.

If Jes is redoing the DE, then the DE should be far enough along in GW's 2-year cycle that we should have seen something. Given that GW was sneak-peaking Daemons and such 3 months prior to release, the idea that DE are still under wraps for December or Spring is silly. OTOH, the IG rumors are a clear hint of what's coming up next.

I think artwork is grossly overrated. When you open the 40k3 Rulebook to p. 116, there are pictures of a Clawed fiend of the Donorian Sector, a Nocturnal Warrior of the Hrud, a Necron, a Kroot, and a jellyfish. Along with an Ambull, Tarellian Dog-soldier and a couple wierd weapons. On p. 117 the Eldar shows a "Savage" (Exodite). So out of these things which were pictured, GW still has quite a ways to go to fulfill their promises dating back to 3rd Edition.

smart_alex wrote:That only goes to show that when companies do things for money it ruins it for everyone else. GW just pushes marines cause its what the kiddies like. LAME

The idea that GW should operate as a charity instead of a profit-making enterprise that gives the customer what they want is an odd one. Also, how do you intend GW to understand the notion that your small number of dollars are somehow more worthy of attention than the much greater number of dollars coming from those "kiddies"? In GW-land, money talks. If you had the most aggregate spend, maybe GW would pay more attention to what you want instead of what they want.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The BOLS reference is now 6 months old. If GW were really working on DE, we'd have something by now.

No we wouldn't.

We didn't even know that GW was working on Marines first for sure until a month or so ago (although an educated guess would say they would be given, how much they love Spase Mareinz).

We don't even know for sure that they're working on Space Wolves or Guard, yet they're supposed to be. Chances are they work on a lot of things simultaneously, but because GW doesn't trust their audience and has to keep everything secret, we don't know anything for sure until someone leaks it at Warseer or BLOS.

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Jes has been drawing and sculpting SM and Eldar since Rogue Trader, and it would appear that he likes these two armies. Based on his position, one imagines that Jes has the ability to choose to work on practically whatever current project he wants to. What is GW going to say to their star sculptor and artist, without whom their universe doesn't exist? Tell him to sod off and give the putty to Blanche? If Jes liked DE, one imagines that it would have been his perogative to choose to sculpt them. Instead, he chose to do the Tactical SM.

If Jes is redoing the DE, then the DE should be far enough along in GW's 2-year cycle that we should have seen something. Given that GW was sneak-peaking Daemons and such 3 months prior to release, the idea that DE are still under wraps for December or Spring is silly. OTOH, the IG rumors are a clear hint of what's coming up next.

I think artwork is grossly overrated. When you open the 40k3 Rulebook to p. 116, there are pictures of a Clawed fiend of the Donorian Sector, a Nocturnal Warrior of the Hrud, a Necron, a Kroot, and a jellyfish. Along with an Ambull, Tarellian Dog-soldier and a couple wierd weapons. On p. 117 the Eldar shows a "Savage" (Exodite). So out of these things which were pictured, GW still has quite a ways to go to fulfill their promises dating back to 3rd Edition.

Yes, because Games Workshop releases the miniatures it's sculptors want to release. Brian Nelson is one of the highly acclaimed sculptors GW has and he doesn't get that liberty. The Perry twins are probably some of the oldest sculptors working there and they don't release what they want.

Maybe Jes has chosen to work on DE. I haven't seen much of his work lately.

Jes might've liked the DE concept, but the SM Tactical (and the Assault, and the Terminator Captain, etc) were much more important to the company thus couldn't be relegated to another sculptor. If Jes didn't like the DE, I wonder why there were sketches of a warrior in the Inquis Exterminatus and probably in the Gothic and the Eldritch, just like there were numerous other things (though not many Marines in Inquis).

The artwork you cited from 3rd edition were black and white, quick drawings that I would sooner call sketches.
Really, you use so much of your brainpower trying to negate the DE out of existence.
On the other hand, the drawing I saw from 5th was by Dave Gallagher, a well-known GW artist. Secondly, it was not based on any warrior, that is to say, it had details that were uncommon for the typical DE warrior, and artwork like this is generally indicative of the work that is being developed.

Finally, I have answered the 6-month window question. The "Death Jester" episode put that window down to something like 3-month because Jes wasn't pleased with the leakage.
And if DE are being worked like the WE, I expect them to keep it very tightly under wraps until they're ready.

Sure, a lot of wishful thinking here But probably someone in GW thinks like you, since DE might've been replaced by Space Wolves.
A shame really, because the SW's only reasons for being first is being SM. And it seems just the way you like it, Marines vs. Marines.

EDIT: Because December/Spring is 3 months away sometimes you make me laugh, John!

EDIT #2: 2 years isn't a lot of time. The Eldar Falcon took nearly that, from the prime concepts to the cutting of the moulds. I imagine it would be faster now, but if it's a whole race then it could be a lot more. And it was kept under wraps. The month after that, the Fire Prism was released.

Agreed. They wouldn't be commissioning new artwork if the army was about to get phased out. DE are well, well beyond GW's self-imposed marketing window (rumors consistently say 2009), so why would we have seen something by now?

John, I understand you play devil's advocate a lot here. But I can't fathom why you think Eldar are on the way and DE aren't, when all the circumstantial evidence points to the contrary? You can't *will* codices in and out of existence. Believe me, I've tried.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The BOLS reference is now 6 months old. If GW were really working on DE, we'd have something by now.

Same with Jes' test sculpt. There should be something.

What would we have? Seriously? I've never argued with you on Dakka, but I find your posts willfully obtuse. I am TELLING YOU that Jes is working on them. What that means, I don't know. Sketches, sculpts, etc. I don't know. Much like he wasn't pleased with the Tyranids from 3rd (for which HE redid the Tyrant and Carnifex to unify the range in 4th), he was unhappy with the DE. He is working the range, and yes, has been for quite some time. You can choose to ignore the multiple members who are telling you this and retreat into "they are getting squatted" as much as you like. But they aren't.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If Jes' working on DE, then there should be something. Because it's been well over 2 years.

Why do you think you'd see something. You didn't see ANY Tyranids when he was working on their redesign...not until GW showed you. And do you think he doesn't have a day job (again, head of plastics).

JohnHwangDD wrote:Jes has been drawing and sculpting SM and Eldar since Rogue Trader, and it would appear that he likes these two armies. Based on his position, one imagines that Jes has the ability to choose to work on practically whatever current project he wants to. What is GW going to say to their star sculptor and artist, without whom their universe doesn't exist? Tell him to sod off and give the putty to Blanche? If Jes liked DE, one imagines that it would have been his perogative to choose to sculpt them. Instead, he chose to do the Tactical SM.

So we are using speculation on the mind of Goodwin circa 1997 to claim the DE are getting squatted? Like the Tyranids, Jes was displeased with the DE in 3rd. So NOW he wants to work their range. How is this not getting through? And yes, I believe Jes (like Blanche) has leverage now. A lot more than in 1997, because his plastics basically made the company from 1998 on. But he likely wanted to work on the flagship kit (the Marine Tac Sprue) in 1998, assuming another good sculptor would knock out the DE. That's speculation, and irrelevant. What is relevant (AGAIN) is that he has worked on them in the past two years or so. Why are you so keen to disbelieve that? Because enough disparate and unconnected folks have told you he is.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If Jes is redoing the DE, then the DE should be far enough along in GW's 2-year cycle that we should have seen something. Given that GW was sneak-peaking Daemons and such 3 months prior to release, the idea that DE are still under wraps for December or Spring is silly. OTOH, the IG rumors are a clear hint of what's coming up next.

Are you obtuse about this because you want IG? December is SIX months away, and spring is about TEN months away. And the cycle is different for different races. The DE requires as much work as any army in 4th or 5th. More than the Orks. More than the Eldar. More than ANY other army. The WE analogy has been brought up dozens of times because it's APT.

And most have said the IG are aroung summer. No one has dated the DE with any sort of sticking power, expect to say 2009 is likely. I'm betting on 4th quarter...so it's still a year plus away. But they AREN'T GOING AWAY. Why?

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think artwork is grossly overrated. When you open the 40k3 Rulebook to p. 116, there are pictures of a Clawed fiend of the Donorian Sector, a Nocturnal Warrior of the Hrud, a Necron, a Kroot, and a jellyfish. Along with an Ambull, Tarellian Dog-soldier and a couple wierd weapons. On p. 117 the Eldar shows a "Savage" (Exodite). So out of these things which were pictured, GW still has quite a ways to go to fulfill their promises dating back to 3rd Edition.

You are comparing a throwaway image from the 3rd with a two page color spread and full fluff section in the 5th book? Each of the major armies gets a 6-8 pages spread in the fluff section for the 5th rulebook.

Space Marines
IG
Chaos SM
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Chaos Daemons
Tau
Orks
Necrons
Tyranids

Gee, what do all of those have in common? I don't see =][= there at all either. I think they are in the IG section. The 5th rulebook indicates the DE are a major race. It's more than just "artwork."

H.B.M.C. wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The BOLS reference is now 6 months old. If GW were really working on DE, we'd have something by now.

We don't even know for sure that they're working on Space Wolves or Guard, yet they're supposed to be. Chances are they work on a lot of things simultaneously, but because GW doesn't trust their audience and has to keep everything secret, we don't know anything for sure until someone leaks it at Warseer or BOLS.

They don't work in series. They work in parallel. The SM (and probably SW) models are in mass production. The SM Codex is being printed. I'd wager the SW Codex is being finalized. Models are being painted/approved for the post-xmas release, with playtesting being done on the release after that, and sculpting on the release after that, and design on the release after that. Does that make sense? Can you grasp the assembly line-like nature that keeps the painters, sculptors, writers, and testers busy?

JohnHwangDD wrote:The BOLS reference is now 6 months old. If GW were really working on DE, we'd have something by now.

Same with Jes' test sculpt. There should be something.

No, we wouldn't. When I worked for GW, I was at a manager's meeting and we saw the enitre WE release photos at least 8 to 10 months before the public did. At another meeting I saw a fully painted Mumakil for LOTR with the same timeframe bofore it started showing up on message boards, etc. GW lets the public see stuff when they are ready to let the public see stuff.

mattyboy22 wrote:No, we wouldn't. When I worked for GW, I was at a manager's meeting and we saw the enitre WE release photos at least 8 to 10 months before the public did. At another meeting I saw a fully painted Mumakil for LOTR with the same timeframe bofore it started showing up on message boards, etc. GW lets the public see stuff when they are ready to let the public see stuff.

Seconded. Especially now with the "3 month window" on the rumor mill going on. Pretty sure that product that is being released in Spring '09 has already been worked on for a few months now, and stuff that's coming out for the end of the year is about a month or two to printing/manufacturing.

dienekes96 wrote:They don't work in series. They work in parallel. The SM (and probably SW) models are in mass production. The SM Codex is being printed. I'd wager the SW Codex is being finalized. Models are being painted/approved for the post-xmas release, with playtesting being done on the release after that, and sculpting on the release after that, and design on the release after that. Does that make sense? Can you grasp the assembly line-like nature that keeps the painters, sculptors, writers, and testers busy?

Chuck: Breathe.

I actually agree, as I said, 'Chances are they work on a lot of things simultaneously...'. I'm certain that they don't just ignore a Codex until it's time to do it. I'm sure they've all sat down and had meetings about Necrons, Guard, Space Wolves and DE, and have done work on some if not all of them.

BYE

dienekes96 wrote: with playtesting being done on the release after that, ...keeps the ... testers busy?

Yep, gotta keep those testers busy for that whole hour they put into playtesting.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Chuck: Breathe.

I actually agree, as I said, 'Chances are they work on a lot of things simultaneously...'. I'm certain that they don't just ignore a Codex until it's time to do it. I'm sure they've all sat down and had meetings about Necrons, Guard, Space Wolves and DE, and have done work on some if not all of them.

I know YOU know that. Most everyone on this board knows that. I am having trouble seeing the paradigm Hwang is coming from. I don't claim any insider knowledge on their release patterns or concept-->release process, but there is plenty of evidence to drawn some fairly basic conclusions from.

I tend to agree with the thought that doesn't really trust in any release until they've seen a) models (like the SMs and Dark Elves) or b) GW confirmation (like Warriors of Chaos). But I still acknowledge the speculation, and it's VERY rarely incorrect. I want SW more than anything from GW, and I am expecting they'll be released as early as December, and maybe as late as April. But I am not counting on it. Until I see a model, it's not certain. but that's OK. That's the business.

JohnHwangDD wrote:DE should be dead last (or else Squatted) unless their sales pick up. Personally, my money is on DE being Squatted in 6th or 7th Edition. None of the developers or sculptors care about DE, so they're just going to languish, regardless of the Internet whining.

Well, you are out of luck, as new DE art appeared on the forums lately...

JohnHwangDD wrote:GW promises much. How long do you think GW will keep this promise?

Yes, yes, JohnHwang. Good! Give in to your cynical feelings! Strike down the DE rumors with all of your hatred and your journey to the Dakka Side will be complete!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

smart_alex wrote:That only goes to show that when companies do things for money it ruins it for everyone else. GW just pushes marines cause its what the kiddies like. LAME

The idea that GW should operate as a charity instead of a profit-making enterprise that gives the customer what they want is an odd one. Also, how do you intend GW to understand the notion that your small number of dollars are somehow more worthy of attention than the much greater number of dollars coming from those "kiddies"? In GW-land, money talks. If you had the most aggregate spend, maybe GW would pay more attention to what you want instead of what they want.

So be it. Fanboi.

Fanboi is harsh, but that quotes a keeper.
sigged Abby

Destrado wrote:The artwork you cited from 3rd edition were black and white, quick drawings that I would sooner call sketches.

EDIT #2: 2 years isn't a lot of time.

And yet, those were the sum total of the races in the 40k universe that GW chose to highlight.

2 years is the GW development cycle, from concept to release.

gorgon wrote:John, I understand you play devil's advocate a lot here. But I can't fathom why you think Eldar are on the way and DE aren't,

Eldar sell and show *much* more than DE, so GW likes the Eldar. Therefore, Eldar continue to get the love, and DE die a slow death.

dienekes96 wrote:I am TELLING YOU that Jes is working on them.

What that means, I don't know. Sketches, sculpts, etc. I don't know.

He is working the range, and yes, has been for quite some time. You can choose to ignore the multiple members who are telling you this and retreat into "they are getting squatted" as much as you like. But they aren't.

Because you sat in Jes' office and actually saw him working on them? Or because you desperately want Jes to be working on them.

Based on your follow-up, I'm going to have to guess the latter is the actual case.

If he's been working on DE for quite some time, we'd have a solid release date. Recall that DE were supposed to have been worked on simultaneously with the last Eldar Codex, that there was supposed to be an immediate follow-on release of DE after Eldar. What happened to all those "reliable" sources?

Maybe they were blowing smoke up your skirt, and you were believing because you wanted to believe? After all, when GW pulls an entire race off the shelves in favor of a brand new race (Tau), that should be considered a pretty serious sign. *cough* Chaos Dwarves vs. Ogres *cough*.

dienekes96 wrote:I am having trouble seeing the paradigm Hwang is coming from. I don't claim any insider knowledge on their release patterns or concept-->release process, but there is plenty of evidence to drawn some fairly basic conclusions from.

I tend to agree with the thought that doesn't really trust in any release until they've seen a) models (like the SMs and Dark Elves) or b) GW confirmation (like Warriors of Chaos). But I still acknowledge the speculation, and it's VERY rarely incorrect. I want SW more than anything from GW, and I am expecting they'll be released as early as December, and maybe as late as April. But I am not counting on it. Until I see a model, it's not certain. but that's OK. That's the business.

Whenever you want to guess what GW will do, just try to figure out what will quickly make more money this month, this quarter, and this year - you will rarely go wrong if you use that as your criteria, particularly if you remove any project which would be "difficult" based on product lines that are "slow" and low-margin.

So in my case, I see a line which has been pulled from the shelves and is only mentioned in the rulebook out of tradition.


As for the Welves, recall that they had a Ravening Hordes list, and then a White Dwarf list that was reprinted in Chronicles prior to their new Army Book. If DE really were going to get a new Codex, where's their WD test preview? Oh, wait, there isn't one.


Why is it that a color page in the Rulebook engenders so much speculation and defense of a new DE Codex, when similar new color pages for Eldar, etc. don't? After all, the new rulebook has a brand-new 2-page Eldar picture. Why can't that be the basis for proving conclusively that Eldar will get a Codex *and* Biel-Tan before the DE get another update?