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Emrab wrote:GW really just needs to get a massive team working togeather and just write all of the codex's at the same time. Yes it would take longer but there would be much less confusion and make things somewhat uniform between the armies.

GW likes to only release a new codex with new models. They are of the mistaken belief that you can't make a profit on books. I'm not sure why, as Dark Heresy sold out its first print run. I'm sure there is greater synergy with a codex and model release, but i bet they would see an increased sales of older models if a new codex was released. It would just be harder to add any new units. (some sort of fast attack option for GK, for example) And yes people can convert, make their own, but then they don't get the sales. I can see where they are at though, its would be hard to write a half-assed update codex without adding new models.

JohnDD: Ok, i think i see where you are at, and i agree, 1 HQ and 1 Elite probably won't throw things off too much and i suppose one could always disallow it for tournies if it ever got bad.

ferrous wrote:JohnDD: Ok, i think i see where you are at, and i agree, 1 HQ and 1 Elite probably won't throw things off too much and i suppose one could always disallow it for tournies if it ever got bad.

Yeah, GW already disallows Allies in most of their Tournies.

But what's interesting is that most friendlies don't care about Allies, esp. with Apoc being so popular now.

Ferrous the sales thing makes sense. However if they do an over haul about every 10 years would it be so hard to just wait and relase everything at once. I realize this should just be another thread.

Daft thing, I play aginst GK fairly regularly and noone's actually dealt with their main problem where's the anti-tank? The basic GK ain't bad it's the LR or the Dread they can't kill which gives them problems. Also one of the 40K things I like is killing large monsters and characters with AT weapons.

Well I almost always have a LR in my Army unless points wont allow it and then I just rely on a a psycannon or a vindicare assassian.

Relic blades for the basic troopers is a terrible idea, because if you want a guy with a str 6 powerweapon you're going to end up paying for it. And come the time you actually run into some deamons that abilty to ignore armour saves that you've paid for is going to be worth precisely nothing at all.

Deamonhunters aren't actually broke, so very little is needed to fix stuff. You keep seeing people say they should have a psycannon option to kill tanks but again, thats rubbish... its not a GK's job to kill tanks, thats what you pay johnny PDF to sit in a shrub with a lascannon to do for you.

The biggest mistake is to genuninely believe that a pure GK army should be tournament viable when thats not the case. If an eldar player limits himself to using nothing but aspect warrior infantry on foot how much time of day would you give him if he complains his army is underpowered? None at all. And rightly so.

The updates that are actually needed is to lose true grit and give them an extra base attack each (thus deleting a pointless special rule).

Offer the Justicar a deamonhammer, mostly for fluff plus he can batter big things with it.

A little bit of sprucing and updating for the special rules, re-define what a deamon is so that morons don't go claiming that Codex Deamons has no deamons in it, that sort of thing. Being outdated wargear into line like stormshields and assault cannons, access to Redeemers, that sort of thing.

More importantly PAGK as troops should be allowed to teleport (all justicars get teleport homers).

And the heavy support squad loses the Justicar and instead becomes a unit of 3 to 5 guys ALL with psycannons or incinerators.. same theory as ork Lootas or Dark Reapers. That way the cost per model goes down since they'll be much less multi-role and you don't have to pay for a pointless justicar.

Pretty much thats it for GK fixing.

Seeing as GW are moving away from multi-list buisness, IG allies could be folded into a sort of militia/PDF entry of 5 to 15 guardsmen with either lasguns, pistol/combat weapon or shotguns. A heavy weapon option at ten models, mildly compent unit leaders, a special weapon or two perhaps and a choice of rhino or chimera to ride in.

Class Assassins as 'disposable' so they aren't worth kill points. And let the poor vindicare have as many intresting bullets as he likes, not just three (Get him a stylish manbag to carry them all in or something... he can charge it to the Inquistion's expense account, its fine).

Hymirl wrote:Relic blades for the basic troopers is a terrible idea,

Deamonhunters aren't actually broke,
The biggest mistake is to genuninely believe that a pure GK army should be tournament viable

The updates that are actually needed is to lose true grit and give them an extra base attack each

Offer the Justicar a deamonhammer,

re-define what a deamon is

Being outdated wargear into line like stormshields and assault cannons, access to Redeemers, that sort of thing.

More importantly PAGK as troops should be allowed to teleport (all justicars get teleport homers).

And the heavy support squad loses the Justicar and instead becomes a unit of 3 to 5 guys ALL with psycannons or incinerators..

Seeing as GW are moving away from multi-list buisness, IG allies could be folded into a sort of militia/PDF entry

Class Assassins as 'disposable' so they aren't worth kill points.

And let the poor vindicare have as many intresting bullets as he likes,

In general, I'm good with all of this.

If you don't give them Relic Blades, what are they armed with? They've *ALL* got huge power-ish weapons that look essentially similar and need to modify or negate saves in some way. If they don't auto-negate armor saves, then how about this:
Nemesis Force Weapon
- +2S and opponents re-roll all successful saves;
- on a 6 to-wound, neither armor nor invulnerable saves may be taken.
This basically cuts most saves in half. It's good against everything, but not awesome against anything in particular, though it's proportionally somewhat more effective against weaker saves (i.e. 6+).

I completely agree that Inquisition is a viable army, and that a narrow GK-only army would necessarily have problems due to their fairly high level of specialization.

Losing True Grit for an extra attack works just fine.

Justicar with a Daemonhammer is a reasonable option.

Defining Daemon isn't necessary or desirable from a rules-standpoint, as they're too rare and narrow to tailor rules against. Just as Poison now affects Daemons and Wraithguard, Chaos lost Sacred Numbers and Ancient Enemies, and DA lost their special rivalry with Space Wolves, so too would GK be more generalized.

I think it's obvious that GK should have the full range of LR variants to call their own. I wouldn't be adverse to adding Helios and Prometheus as Inquisitional / GK LR options.

PAGK should definitely gain Deep Strike - that's how the GK roll.

Structurally, I agree that a specialist Dark Reaper / Obliterator / Long-Fang concept is good starting place. I like the idea of 1 Justicar and 4 Heavies, and generally see the Psycannon and Incinerator as "free" swaps for the NFWs that they squaddies would normally carry. The Justicar is there to drive the point that GK are led by dudes with NFWs.

As above, I agree that a militia / PDF / Guard entry is desirable, though I'm not sure squads of 11-15 are desirable. I think 5-10 works fine as cheap gun teams.

I don't think Assassins should be disposable, as they're pretty expensive. But I think they should have their costs revisited in light of being restricted and non-Scoring Independent.

And yes, the Vindicare should just pick his round out of an unlimited supply. Even so, he's overcosted.

I have never played Grey Knights, or even seen them on the table, but is there any reason to change the way Force Nemesis Weapons work? They seem fine as they are. As I see it, the basic PAGK does not need to be more powerful, rather the unit needs to be a little cheaper over-all. A new heavy weapon option (a blast template of some description, I believe) would be a nice addition too. As I see it, the major difficulties with Grey Knights are their ridiculously low numbers and their complete lack of options. These are what need to be addressed, not new special rules or more powerful equipment. This is fifth edition: special rules are being reduced or completely eliminated, fluffy extras (eg anti-Daemon specialisation) are being thrown out the door and everything is being further streamlined. Throw away all their special rules, perhaps leaving The Shrouding (as a cover save, more than likely) and replace True Grit with +1A and we have a perfectly streamlined army. Rebalance costs, add new unit types and insert toys here, here and here.

JohnHwangDD wrote:But I think they should have their costs revisited in light of being restricted and non-Scoring Independent.

They were always restricted and non-scoring. They definitely need a price-drop, but for reasons other than those.

EDIT: corrected tags.

Hymirl and JohnDD those last two posts have seemed to make the most sense out of all the previous posts. It seems that this would work really well. Except the whol NFW is comming up again as an issue that I know everyone will never agree on but the ideas are becomming better. Again great ideas guys.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you don't give them Relic Blades, what are they armed with? They've *ALL* got huge power-ish weapons that look essentially similar and need to modify or negate saves in some way.

They're armed with Nemsis Force Weapons.

Besides tell me WHY they need to beat armour saves?
To kill marines? No, they're not marine killers and thats not there job.
Because it looks big and sharp? No, you're already getting a bonus to beat armour saves from that, its called the strength bonus that means you deal almost twice the number of wounds to things making them roll twice as many armour saves and lose twice as many guys.

You don't have a single good reason for this.

On thing they do need is the abilty to use the force weapon on a deamon, Grandmasters being able to overide the Eternal Warrior on deamons would work quite well for that. Otherwise once their force weapon ability is brought up to date they would be causing proper instant death, which as we all know is pointless since all deamons just ignore it.

Structurally, I agree that a specialist Dark Reaper / Obliterator / Long-Fang concept is good starting place. I like the idea of 1 Justicar and 4 Heavies, and generally see the Psycannon and Incinerator as "free" swaps for the NFWs that they squaddies would normally carry. The Justicar is there to drive the point that GK are led by dudes with NFWs.

Why on earth do you want a combat tooled squad leader in a ranged unit? It makes about as much sense as having a sarge with a powerfist in devestators.. why can't the justicar have a psycannon so he can do something useful instead of cheerleading while he stands about doing nothing. A GK is supposed to be too valueble to waste doing anything except fighting deamons to best effectiveness.

I don't think Assassins should be disposable, as they're pretty expensive. But I think they should have their costs revisited in light of being restricted and non-Scoring Independent.

Assassins are pretty disposable actually Cult Assassins are pretty much random losers, eversors are rigged to explode when they die (and thats WHEN, not IF), deamonhosts are sort of difficult to make much not much of a tactical loss if killed.
Basically something to change that all these one model units give away an easy killpoint when killed, a factor that seriously disadvanatages them in army selection. In 4th edition, an eversor and 6 deathcult assassins was pretty horrible as an attack force normally killing more than their VPs and being a worthwhile suicide attack group. Nowdays its "have 7 killpoints, I lose, well done you!"

@Hymril: NFWs are unique to the GK, so definitionally, the can be whatever we like. In my case, I want all NFWs to have the same effect, so there's no question as to what it does. As for "why", I think it's sufficient to say "because that's how I see GK on the battlefield." If you have a different vision, that's fine, just different.

+2S is nice, but not so impressive when the opponent simply saves and ignores it.

I will say that having special rules in one Codex to override other special rules in another Codex is probably a bad thing. The Necron list has proven that time and again.


The Justicar is like that in the ranged unit specifically to dilute its effectiveness and increase flexibility. It's the same with Long Fangs, current SM, and how Dark Reapers used to be with Web of Skulls. SM-based Dev-type units have up to 4 "regular" guys carrying Heavy Weapons, but the unit leader never has a heavy weapon.


In my last Apoc game, I fielded nearly 600 pts worth of Assassins. Because I could. 40k doesn't revolve around KPs, so meh, don't care.

In replay to the heavy squads for the GK. It really comes down to the justicare being 25 more points. Yes he can get wargear and he can get a psycannon from that but thats making him 80 points and thats almost as much as the regular squad. So it really just comes down to making the justicar less points. Also the new Dark Reapers their squad leader can get a bigger better gun then the rest of the squad.

Yeah I just don't see the point of having him, wheras moving away from the Devestators but with Grey Knights and having them totally equiped like Lootas or Burna boys gives the GK a little more seperation from the normal marines, which I think is good. After all the reason the sarge in an ultramarine dev squad doesn't have a missile launcher is because the Codex says so, the GK don't follow the codex so... stuff it.

In my case, I want all NFWs to have the same effect, so there's no question as to what it does.

As much as I respect your quest for simplicity, I always really liked how GK unlocked more abilties of their NFW as they progress though the ranks, showing the psychic mastery to good effect in my book.

Also its a good point on why rules in one codex shouldn't interfere with other codexes, but I can't think of any other way to make force weapons work on big deamon creatures without making it wildly better than all force weapons with permission to over-ride Eternal Warrior in everything it hits (not that I mind since I think Force Weapons should be able to instant kill things other than orgyns but that does rather make all the other force weapons rather poor).

This thread has gone slowed.

Asmodeus wrote:This thread has gone slowed.

This is helpful or on topic, how?

Please do not try to derail the conversation.

Hymirl wrote:

In my case, I want all NFWs to have the same effect, so there's no question as to what it does.

I always really liked how GK unlocked more abilties of their NFW as they progress though the ranks

I think Force Weapons should be able to instant kill things other than orgyns

I completely understand why you like the unlocking mechanic, but I just think it's unwieldy. I mean, imagine if Bolters did something different depending on whether it was held by a Scout, Tactical, Devastator, or Character.

So, at the scale at which 40k plays, I prefer to flatten the effect, so that the little dudes do more, and the big guy does less. On net, the version I proposed is almost (-35%) as good as a Relic Blade in normal 40k (because Armor saves are common and important), but better (+35%) against Daemons (which the GK are supposed to be better against).

Note that I wouldn't have the "Force Weapon" rule as part of my NFWs - it's uncommon, so undesirable on a basic model. For me, the "Force" portion is how they negate all saves on a 6 to wound and force re-rolls normally.

In a way you do get different bolters, Sternguard for example... and while its sightly different Dire Avengers and Guardians are similar with different kinds of catapults.

At the end of the day its only three different flavours of NFW, I appriciate what you're saying but I don't see it as a problem that needs fixing. GK are already pretty handy in combat.

I'd be talking about sensibly priced special weapons long before wanting to change the NFW, and giving them frag grenades, its a crying shame to see the finest of the emperors finest being outdone by a low wall!

I could see the incinorator being a free exchange and then the psycannon for 5 or 10 points and then it would be good imo.

Long time lurker, 1st time poster...

Reading the entire thread, there seem to be a couple common themes, so let me weigh in a little. I have a few GKs that I like to bust out now and then, but they're just not balanced enough for my taste. Too expensive and focused

The GKs (and Daemonhunters), if balanced properly, could be used as allies or as their own list. But the only way that balance is going to happen is with playtesting, not theorycrafting. So I think we'd be better off coming up with theorycraft numbers, then testing those numbers. Otherwise the thread is going to continually go in circles, and I'd really love to see something productive come out of this thread.

Here's a little thought on how to make GKs more effective against daemons, but not against overcosted against other armies: Give the units options (wargear, bonuses, etc) that can be bought for additional points. For example:

- GKs are especially adept at fighting daemons, and over the centuries, some have mastered techniques for beating daemons at their own game. Any GK may purchase the PE: Daemons skill for 2(?) points per model. (Must be bought for every member of a squad, etc).

- A GK Justicar may purchase Psycannon bolts for 10 points, and/or replace their Nemesis Power Weapon with a Daemonhammer for X points

Of course you have to define what a daemon is, but that's not a big deal, since you have to do it for every other type of enemy.

I also like this idea, so I'm going to continue using it

ferrous wrote:
NW = +2 str
NPW = +2 str power weapon
NFW = +2 str force weapon

But, let me do a quick mathhammer...

Regular GK (assume current stat line, storm bolter and nemesis weapon)
Start with a Basic Marine
Lose ATSKNF and Combat Tactics, Gain Fearless. Seems like a wash to me, maybe refund a point
Lose the bolter, gain a storm bolter (+2 points)
Looking at the SM Captain Relic weapon vs power weapon, let's call it ~5 points for the NW
the +6 str weapon easily counts a krak grenades
I would say increase the attacks on the models by 1 (and drop True Grit alltogether)
Looking at the Honor Squad from the codex, +15 points for the Justicar seems right

If you change the wording on shrouding so that it counts as frag grenades and Night Fighting, then 25 points for a GK seems about right. Doing another quick mathhammer against a 10-man tac squad with BP+CCW sarge & ML, the cost is actually a bit high (but playtesting might reveal otherwise). Khorne Berserkers also come in around this point cost (actually, just under the GKs), but have FC & BP+CCW, so it seems to balance out.

keeping with the current theme in marine armies, you could say that if a GK squad has a full 10 models, you can combat squad them, and give them an incinerator and psycannon for free. At 265 points for a full 10, I don't think a couple free weapons imbalance anything.

For fast attack slots, you could continue with the current theme of allowing GKs to Deep Strike via teleportation. But add a drop pod and the heroic intervention for 35 points.

For heavy support, a random thought I had was to give the GK Purgation Squad a "Heavy Psycannon". it counts as a Psycannon, but rolls 2d6 for armor penetration. The other thought was to count the psycannon as rending (e.g. Assault Cannon). For 25 points, you'd get either an 18" assault 3 rending or 36" heavy 3 rending weapon. That would take care of the armor problem (except a Monolith), and make up for a lack of missile launchers, lascannons and multi-meltas.

Once you add in Razorbacks (twin linked psycannons ), Rhinos and Drop Pods, you have an expensive, but pretty brutal army. Its fast with good firepower (storm bolters and psycannons are assault weapons with range) and tough (Power armor and Shrouding), but its weakness is low model count. It doesn't have a lot of CC attacks, but WS5 and +2 str weapons means the ones they have will hurt.

Thoughts?

One thought I'm having is get rid of the ability to farm out mystics, and squads, to every IG unit out there. GK are supposed to be rare, and it seems lately that just the mystics have forgotten that. Half of the Imperial forces I've been facing of late seem to have mystics in them, and a squad including a psycannon are becoming more popular as well. (Granted, I've terrorized the heck out of them with fateweaver...)

Having read the whole thread, I want to say that I would just cut out all the fancy extra rules fighting daemons. Those rules will just make the daemon hunters unbalanced and in my opinion, a codex which is unbalanced from a design standpoint is not worth it (then you can house rule stuff and play apocalypse) and only a few people would buy the army.

Making the shrounding not like ordinary night fighting would make sense just because you had to make exceptions for things like search lights etc: not a good idea! Keep it simple.
3d6 x2 for everyone in the army, either you cannot shoot at them at all or you get a cover save/ or are obscured. simple as that.

Same with all the talk about ignoring eternal warrior... the blessed hull update for the black templars was a step to far. Don'T make exceptions for exceptions please! Cut it all out. They get force weapons or higher S (Maybe S8 for the grand master?), but follow the rules.

Up the attacks of the Grey knights to 2 or 3 (Hey, why not?). Seems slowed that they only have 1 attack each, drop all that true grit stuff,

NFW: difficult topic. All pw would make GK too expensive against orks, make them two handed, +2 S, useable with storm bolters.

Long range shooting: Strangely not a hot topic here. I think it's necessary to reduce the amount of land raider in the army. It's not codex:Land Raider after all.
So a max of 3. Giving the dreads options for a shooty kit would balance it already, especially with the change of the shrouding.

Anti-Daemon: As said, nothing fancy. What is strong against daemons, what's weak? I would keep the psychic powers geared against invulnerable saves for example, but not more.

Radical Inquisitors: There needs to be something done with them. The only thing I can imagine is taking units rom the Witchunter codex (you know, the crazy stuff).

That's it for now...

Greets
Schepp himself

Schepp are you saying that the GK can either have a Storm Bolter or a NFW and not both or are you saing that the only thing GK's use in CC are the NFW?

Just some thoughts as I've been playing GK for several years for fun off and on and like Deadshane recently decided to ramp them up for tourney play.

1) NFW are fine. They don't need an upgrade or a downgrade. If your really worried about confusion then rename the levels of weapons but don't mess with something that isn't broken.

2) Personally if we drop true grit for an extra attack I'd be ecstatic. That would mean 3 Attacks on the charge and 2 if charged which is a slight upgrade but reasonable.

3) With the above change and slight change to shrouding the points cost of the GK's is perfect. I agree that heavy weapons are overpriced based on what your giving up.

4) Drop all the anti-demon stuff. Leave the univeral stuff that will generally make you better against demons but not extreme.

5) The idea of a heavier psycannon is great. Either rending or 2d6 for pen would work. The idea to for the upgrade to the heavy squads is great.

6) Move the Dreadnoughts into Elite Slots and you'll solve most of the Anti-tank problems as people will now be able to take 2 LR's and 2 Dreads if they choose.

6b) On the same subject i'd like to see the dreads have the armor of an Ironclad. This combined w/a shrouding effect will greatly increase it's survivability. Don't give it the option for 2 DCCW's though. They'd start about 140-145 due to higher WS but w/Multi-Melta

7) Make the HQ BC have 2 wounds. Drop the price of the GK since he's not worth his points and/or upgrade his Inv to 4+

8) Add some kind of fast attack

9) For the love of god add drop pods. I'd like to see all PAGK's have the transport option of DP's. Now this would be the only Transport option for troops and HS PAGK's. This would enable you to field an all DP army the way that GK's sometimes like to deploy.

10) Drop the taking allies from other books. Keep the ST's (reduced price) and possibly add a guard platoon type but no more taking from other codexes and no more Inducted SM's.

11) Simplify the retinue process, dropping the options no one takes and making them only usable in a this codex. And take away the LR transport option for the Inquisitors.

12) Keep assasins naturally as the Malleaus would use them most. Also take some of the units from C:WH which should just be C:Sisters of Battle again.

13) Make Shrouding just Nightfighting. Based on the points cost of a PAGK that won't have a transport option (except drop pods which while helpful will mean most PAGK's will still be walking) i don't think this is to much. And it'll mean they don't have as many questions as the edition changes since Nightfight rules have been consistant for 3 editions now. For vehicles if they aren't in range then they count as obscured (the sound, heat and such mean they know the vehicles are there, but it's the difference of seeing it and shooting into the dark at the noise). This should come standard on GK armored units (LR's and Dreads) probably for about 5-10pts since it's only 10 for tau to always have obscurement.

14) Termies pointwise are fine though i'd drop the price on the heavy weapon upgrades.

15) Make psychic hoods only usable by inquisitors (GK's are reliant on their aegis suits) and bring it inline w/other hoods.

16) Naturally give GK's the ability to take all the LR options, including adding the Multi-Melta to the standard LR's.

17) Bring the SS inline since no one in their right mind right now trades off a St6 power weapon at initiative for a thunderhammer/ss

Those are it for right now. Feel free to comment and i'll add more later

8) For the fast attack I think they should just add in the regular SM bikes. I dont think that assult GK would go over well at all if they kept their current weps (they would not be worth the points imo). So mabe keep the NFW and then give them a botl pistol instead and leave their points at 25.

I'm against bikes simply from a fluff and archtype basis. Bikes don't strike me as GKish. I'd almost added a landspeeder to the fast attack but i stopped myself short there to because i just don't see GK's spending their time on that stuff. Maybe a servitor based speeder or something of that nature but I can't for the life of me think of a FA GK unit that isn't just GK's w/Herioc Intervention.

I figure in my next game I will try out some bikes.

GK biker: 35 points base. Have the twin linked bolters switched to storm bolters and keep the frag grenades. Two bikers in the squad can get incinerators for 5 points each. Melta bombs still at 2 points.
Attack Bike: 50 points base. Again switch the twin linked bolter for the storm bolter. and an option for a psycannon at +20 points
No scout bikes.
Also rider stats would be the same as GK. Also I was unsure since ther storm bolters are gauntlet mounted weather to give the bikers Storm Bolters or not. I figured if they had them it would make them to points heavy.

A random idea that I had today for a GK fast attack is a IG sentinel on steroids. Make it a fast walker (closed toped) with 11 Armour all around and have the option for a psycannon/incinerator/heavy bolter. Make them a base of 45 points and then say 5 points for the incinerator, 15 for the heavy bolter, and 20 for the psycannon. I envision it as a cross between a sentinel and a dreadnought.

edit: Feel free to critique. I would like to know your opinions.

Emrab wrote: I figure in my next game I will try out some bikes.

GK biker: 35 points base. Have the twin linked bolters switched to storm bolters and keep the frag grenades. Two bikers in the squad can get incinerators for 5 points each. Melta bombs still at 2 points.
Attack Bike: 50 points base. Again switch the twin linked bolter for the storm bolter. and an option for a psycannon at +20 points
No scout bikes.
Also rider stats would be the same as GK. Also I was unsure since ther storm bolters are gauntlet mounted weather to give the bikers Storm Bolters or not. I figured if they had them it would make them to points heavy.

A random idea that I had today for a GK fast attack is a IG sentinel on steroids. Make it a fast walker (closed toped) with 11 Armour all around and have the option for a psycannon/incinerator/heavy bolter. Make them a base of 45 points and then say 5 points for the incinerator, 15 for the heavy bolter, and 20 for the psycannon. I envision it as a cross between a sentinel and a dreadnought.

edit: Feel free to critique. I would like to know your opinions.

Are the stormbolters on the bikes TL? Also do they still get the NFW? Those are my initial questons for the bikes. Also would the sentinel be an Inquizitorial Storm Trooper? I would also base it off of the "new" sentinels the IG get (if they change at all).

I was thinking no NFW and the Storm Bolters would not be twin linked. A regular storm bolter is still better than a twin linked bolter.

Edit: As for the sentinals they were just a random tought and yes I will rework the idea once the new IG codex comes out. Another option would for them to have a 2 man truck attack truck of some sorts. Looks like a landspeder but with wheels.

I'll put some quick sketches of the sentinals and the truck ideas and post them at somepoint today.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Image:gorgon-buggies

That is what gave me the idea except all closed up. Better than I could draw.

Edit: Sorry for not making this all one post.