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This is, roughly, what I'd like to see out of the Grey Knights:

Grey Knights: 120 points

WS__BS__S__T__A__I__W__Ld__Sv
__4___4__4__4__1__4__1___8__3+ Grey Knight
__4___4__4__4__2__4__1___9__3+ Justicar

Composition: Justicar + 4 Grey Knights

Equipment: Nemesis Force Weapon, Storm Bolter, Frag Grenades

Nemesis Force Weapon: This is a Two Handed close combat weapon that grants the wielder +2 Strength on his attacks in Assault. The wielder automatically hits on a 3+ when attacking a unit containing one or more models with an Invulnerable Save and / or a Psykic Power in the Assault Phase.

True Grit: A Grey Knight equipped with a Storm Bolter has +1 Attack in any turn of Assault where he does not receive a bonus attack for Charging or wielding multiple close combat weapons.

Aegis: Any enemy Psyker attempting to use a power that includes a Grey Knight within its area of effect has -3 Ld for any tests related to that power.

Shrouding: Grey Knights receive a +1 bonus to all cover saves. This even confers a 6+ cover save against shooting when Grey Knights have no cover.

Unshakable: Grey Knights are Fearless and can not be Pinned by the enemy.

Deep Strike

Character: The Justicar counts as a Psyker and in his hands a Nemesis Force Weapon does not allow an armor save.

Additional Troops:
May buy up to 5 additional Grey Knights at 20pts each

For every 5 models in the unit, one Grey Knight may exchange his Nemesis Force Weapon and Storm Bolter for:
- Incinerator (free)
- Psycannon (+10 pts)

The Justicar may exchange his Storm Bolter for:
- Combi-Melta (+5pts)
- Combi-Plasma (+5pts)
- Combi-Incinerator (+5pts)
- Storm Shield (+10pts)

The Justicar may exchange his Nemesis Force Weapon for:
- Lightning Claw (free)
- Power Fist (+10pts)
- Thunder Hammer (+15pts)

The Justicar may take any of the Following:
- Melta Bombs (+5pts)
- Teleporter Homer (+10pts)
- Holocaust Psychic Power (+10pts)

That actually sounds really good except i wouldnt make the incinorator free.

Emrab wrote:That actually sounds really good except i wouldnt make the incinorator free.

I couldn't find a rational basis to assign an additional point cost to the Incinerator. I had an initial impulse to automatically assign any change in gear a point cost, but I confronted that impulse as irrational. The fact that you have to turn in your Storm Bolter and Nemesis Force Weapon to get an Incinerator is already a steep cost. The Storm Bolter alone is points-comparable to a Flamer, and the Nemesis Force Weapon certainly makes up for the added feature of ignoring Invulnerable Saves.

Am I remembering correctly that the Incinerator is based off the Flamer weapon profile rather than the Heavy Flamer profile?

- Marty Lund

I would keep them at WS5, make the justicar ldr 9, and give the options for psybolts.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Then in that case, they don't need a Codex. They can be two Inquisition list entries and an Apocalypse Datasheet.

I agree completely. The Inquisition should be rolled into one codex.

lifeafter wrote:I would keep them at WS5, make the justicar ldr 9, and give the options for psybolts.

Yeah, the Ld8 was a copy-and-paste error. Psy-bolts wouldn't be a bad addition.

I don't see much point in the WS5, though. S6 and True Grit is already plenty of extra power in Assault. Hitting Sorcerers, Daemons, and Boss-Monsters on 3+ lets the Grey Knights continue to excel in their specialized role. Tossing on any more Assault Enhancements leads to over-inflating the points costs on base troops, IMO.

- Marty Lund

mlund that does make sense about the incinotator being free and Im also with lifeafter and think the WS should still be 5.

Oh a quick add on. I beilve that some armies have some vechile upgrades that allow their vechiles to become obscured or make the shooter reroll (correct me if I am wrong please). I think something like that would work well as a shrouding for vechiles.

WS 5 is there to combat daemons, who all have insanely high weapon skills. This allows them to hit Bloodthirsters and avatars on a 4+ still instead of a 5+, changing it to preferred enemy invulnerable is interesting, worth testing. I kind of like having a WS, as then units that do things that effect weapons will still work against the GKs. (i can only think of the banshee scream, but there might be others, or more in the future.)

Why bother making the NFW two handed? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'm fine with getting a crop of unique powers as well just for DH, though i drool a bit over some of the nice SM ones.

I don't like your version of the Shroud it promotes having GKs sit in cover, and is almost completely useless otherwise, the distance version of the shroud helps combat numerical advantages, where if you attack one flank, the long range snipers on the other flank will not be able to bring their weapons to bear.

And oh yeah, to Asmodeus: its pretty easy to come up with reasons for GKs fighting other races. Training, defense of a monastery or relic, etc. Hell even space marines is easy, they witnessed a greater warp rift in a previous battle, time to cleanse! Its no worse than other races and the semi ludicrious reasons why they fight each other. It wouldn't take much to evolve them into a more playable codex of their own instead of squishing WH and DH into one inquisition dex where they'd end up losing their uniqueness. They already do fairly well vs. daemons even though more then half of their anti daemon gak doesn't apply anymore (Aegis, Psychic powers, anti-instability)

I also think from a balance standpoint that allowing cross codex allying is a nightmare, and should be phased out.

I also argue making the swap to Thunder hammer should be free. The other thing about Ordo Malleus is supposed to be cheaper hammers, and if you think about it, 3 attacks at str 6 power weapon at init or 2 attacks at str8 at I1 are fairly equal and interesting trades.

How is Unshakable any different from fearless? Are you just trying to get around the fearless causing unsaved wounds?

Ferrous I think he was calling it something fluffy and then describing the USR. Just like how Chapter tactics for SM grant certain USRs

mlund wrote:.

Unshakable: Grey Knights are Fearless and can not be Pinned by the enemy.

He does make them fearless and just gives it a fluffy name.

Sorry for the 2 boxes some how messed it up and didnt feel like messing it up more.

I am along the lines of 1 Inquizition dex (bascially combind both dex's same units just fix points a bit - SoB cheaper & Faith - GK more expensive, different options, etc..) that takes a bit more tweaking on my part but I see great potential in that (if only they were plastic....)

However since thats not the point of the thread, back on topic.

GK - shrouding should be = to night fight rules, Deads and vehicles get an obscured 4+, @ over 18 included into the cost (so not an upgrade).

As to the GK bonus's vs deamons I still think Furious Charge + Prefered Enemy @ no points but only verse deamons. That way they get an advantage agaist deamons but not everthing else (still WS 5, Str 6 in CC), perhaps a slight points deduction?

Back to the combined Inquizition dex it would have to be worked so you could run either full SoB, full GK or a combination without any hastle..

Asmodeus wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Then in that case, they don't need a Codex. They can be two Inquisition list entries and an Apocalypse Datasheet.

I agree completely. The Inquisition should be rolled into one codex.

Aside from Sisters, which a viable army on their own.

Casper wrote:
As to the GK bonus's vs deamons I still think Furious Charge + Prefered Enemy @ no points but only verse deamons. That way they get an advantage agaist deamons but not everthing else (still WS 5, Str 6 in CC), perhaps a slight points deduction?

What will daemons get then?

mlund wrote:This is, roughly, what I'd like to see out of the Grey Knights:

Grey Knights: 120 points

WS__BS__S__T__A__I__W__Ld__Sv
__4___4__4__4__1__4__1___8__3+ Grey Knight
__4___4__4__4__2__4__1___9__3+ Justicar

Composition: Justicar + 4 Grey Knights

Equipment: Nemesis Force Weapon, Storm Bolter, Frag Grenades

Nemesis Force Weapon: This is a Two Handed close combat weapon that grants the wielder +2 Strength on his attacks in Assault. The wielder automatically hits on a 3+ when attacking a unit containing one or more models with an Invulnerable Save and / or a Psykic Power in the Assault Phase.

True Grit: A Grey Knight equipped with a Storm Bolter has +1 Attack in any turn of Assault where he does not receive a bonus attack for Charging or wielding multiple close combat weapons.

Aegis: Any enemy Psyker attempting to use a power that includes a Grey Knight within its area of effect has -3 Ld for any tests related to that power.

Shrouding: Grey Knights receive a +1 bonus to all cover saves. This even confers a 6+ cover save against shooting when Grey Knights have no cover.

Unshakable: Grey Knights are Fearless and can not be Pinned by the enemy.

Deep Strike

Character: The Justicar counts as a Psyker and in his hands a Nemesis Force Weapon does not allow an armor save.

Additional Troops:
May buy up to 5 additional Grey Knights at 20pts each

For every 5 models in the unit, one Grey Knight may exchange his Nemesis Force Weapon and Storm Bolter for:
- Incinerator (free)
- Psycannon (+10 pts)

The Justicar may exchange his Storm Bolter for:
- Combi-Melta (+5pts)
- Combi-Plasma (+5pts)
- Combi-Incinerator (+5pts)
- Storm Shield (+10pts)

The Justicar may exchange his Nemesis Force Weapon for:
- Lightning Claw (free)
- Power Fist (+10pts)
- Thunder Hammer (+15pts)

The Justicar may take any of the Following:
- Melta Bombs (+5pts)
- Teleporter Homer (+10pts)
- Holocaust Psychic Power (+10pts)

I'm sorry but your Grey Knight squad is totally broken and more powerful than any MEQ in the game at it's point cost. You should not be cheaper than Chaos Cult troops. Period.

What, at 24 points each you mean?

This is just a standard marine only:
Str 6
Storm bolter
Fearless
Bonus against psykers
Good cover
Losing lots of weapon options

So no, it isn't really.

Nemesis Force Weapon: This is a Two Handed close combat weapon that grants the wielder +2 Strength on his attacks in Assault. The wielder automatically hits on a 3+ when attacking a unit containing one or more models with an Invulnerable Save and / or a Psykic Power in the Assault Phase.

Why is this here?
Does it not mean that my Cybork Nobz are gonna get pasted?

NeoMaul wrote:

Casper wrote:
As to the GK bonus's vs deamons I still think Furious Charge + Prefered Enemy @ no points but only verse deamons. That way they get an advantage agaist deamons but not everthing else (still WS 5, Str 6 in CC), perhaps a slight points deduction?

What will daemons get then?

Hmm, not quite sure exactly...probably nothing but I haven't gotten that far (besides look at what they get now against them...). My idea ignored the NFW ignoring invounerable or armor save debate (imo NFW should only be power wep for justicar and up, Force Wep that ignore eternal warrior for Grand Master). To me thats not overpowering GK expecially if it is only against deamons (their deamonhunters for a reason).

Edit: btw any ideas what deamons should get in return, its an interesting question...

I think there are a few issues i have with mlund's idea

1) These aren't SM...and never should be
2) Imo the psycher stuff isn't necessary and well is rather cheap...which army really relies/uses often psychers - Eldar, Lash Chaos, SM
3) The any Invounerable save stuff also op - a nice idea but really unessary (imo for countering Nobz, all Deamons, IC's etc..)
4) Shrouding was a way to cope with the small numbers, just make it equal to night fighting (like Quins) and give their vehicles some upgrade to get obscured and thats it

If PAGK got mlund's full list they would need to be more expensive than they are (as it seems to be geared to killing anything and making GK a top teir army)

I don't think that's very broken at all; there are Chaos legions with special rules which are WAY more broken.

(Example: Thousand Sons. 3+ armor, 4+ invulnerable, Relentless and AP3 rapid fire bolters).

One thing that might be a balancing factor compared to the Chaos Cult troops is that on his list you have 5 models. Period.

Not 5 and here's some more models if you want them.

Not 5 and you should take four more, you Tzeentchy sob.

Just 5. 5 wounds for your troop choice, 3+ armor save, no feel no pain, no invulnerable save.

Cripe. Thousand Sons would have a field day with this army.

Edit: Missed the "can add five more at 20 pts." Still, some of the chaos factions get some crazier rules.

bryantsbears wrote:I don't think that's very broken at all; there are Chaos legions with special rules which are WAY more broken.

(Example: Thousand Sons. 3+ armor, 4+ invulnerable, Relentless and AP3 rapid fire bolters).

One thing that might be a balancing factor compared to the Chaos Cult troops is that on his list you have 5 models. Period.

Not 5 and here's some more models if you want them.

Not 5 and you should take four more, you Tzeentchy sob.

Just 5. 5 wounds for your troop choice, 3+ armor save, no feel no pain, no invulnerable save.

Cripe. Thousand Sons would have a field day with this army.

Um... no... You can buy another five for a total of ten for 220pts. That's cheaper than any ten man Chaos squad.

Casper wrote:Edit: btw any ideas what deamons should get in return, its an interesting question...

Daemons get Without Number. Just like they always have.

Yeah Without numbers should stay and I would say that the points should stay as is 25 for a guy and 50 for a justicar if they went any higher then you might as well get rid of them and just take the terminators as troops at 46 points each.

Casper wrote:1) These aren't SM...and never should be

Correct.

For all intents and purposes, GK are Chaos Cult Marines. So they should be compared with things like CSM Possessed, CSM Plague Marines, CSM Noise Marines, CSM kSons, and perhaps BA Death Company or SM LotD.

Of course, as Marty shows, it's pretty easy to get carried away and throw the kitchen sink at them, making them so powerful, that any fair costing makes them unplayable.

That means that PA GK should start with a Veteran statline (18-19 pts) and cost something like 25 pts to 30 pts base:

Grey Knight WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+
- Fearless (replaces ATSKNF & SM Combat Tactics)
- Aegis = 5+ Invulnerable against any Psychic power
- Teleporters = Deep Strike
- Rites = if not Shooting, may Assault after Deep Striking (i.e. like a CSM Lesser Daemon)
- Shrouding = Assault & Defensive Grenades

- Storm Bolter
- Nemesis Force Weapon = Relic Blade (+2S Power Weapon)

- Squad = 5 models.

Something like this is about as streamlined as one can make things, and even then, 30-pts is on the low side for what they'd have to cost.

bryantsbears wrote:(Example: Thousand Sons. 3+ armor, 4+ invulnerable, Relentless and AP3 rapid fire bolters).

You realise that kSons are probably the worst Cult Marines one could take, right?

AP3 and 4++ are pretty much worthless when 4++ cover saves are the norm.

And his version is *far* superior to that. It's kind of like Honor Guard with Relic Blades.

That said, fixed 5 model unit is probably a good restriction.

To asmodeus complaints about the pt cost: You do realize that currently 5 PAGKs are 150, so its really only a 30 pt savings. And most of that is from the very overpriced justicar (he's more expensive than a GKT right now!)

To making the Shroud == night fighting, its overpowered IMHO.

to JohnDD's version: Giving them all power weapons and assault after DS is what is making your version expensive. You're beefing up their powers and then complaining that they are too expensive =)

And for everyone trying to bring back sustained attack: The reason why it shouldn't come back is because normal daemon troops (which is who it used to effect) have been beefed up tremendously. Before Eternal Warrior on every damned model, nurglings would disappear like butter to even normal GKs, but now they will tarpit just about anything. And the rest of the troops still all DS now and are pretty decent at doing the killy.

First off, 4 flavors of NFW, depending on who's holding it, are just stupid. NFW becomes a Relic Blade, which is easy and well-understood. The problem is that it's expensive.

Assault after DS could go away, but it's not so broken - they would need to DS within 6", so any bad scatter and the GK are screwed.

Sustained Attack is horrible, because it's not part of the 5E rules and screws up scoring.

I've never understood why the Justicar is 50 pts? shouldn't he be cheaper than a GKT? Or start with artificer armor standard?


I'm also against losing the NFW, as its kind of the iconic grey knight weapon, even if slightly confusing, they could just change the weapon names slightly per PAGK GKT usage.

NW = +2 str
NPW = +2 str power weapon
NFW = +2 str force weapon