Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With their pages of (mostly useless) special rules the Grey Knights are certainly in for a large revision in the next codex (if it ever comes out).

What might they look like?

My guesses

Marine stats but WS5, Ld9
Relic Weapon (2 handed +2 str power weapon)
Storm bolter (build into guantlet so they can use it with the relic weapon)
Option to replace bolter with storm shield
Artificer or Terminator armor
5+ invulnerable
Daemons must make a leadership check to charge them

Cost 35-45 points each

Rationale: The arti armor and 5+ invulerable replace the shrouding, the anti-psy wards and other specialized kit and also increases survivability. right now the bane of the GKs is the cost a fortune but die as easily as 15pt marines.
The arti armor and 2 handed weapon is also more WYSIWYG for the models.
The storm shield idea is just because it would look SO DAMN COOL. No other reason.
Other than the Daemon charge thing there's not much specialized anti-demon stuff in there but that's because the whole design philosophy of the GKs is they should be able to take all comers, not just daemons.


Any thoughts?

Agreed, mostly, though some special rules like they currently have when facing a demonic army would be interesting. I haven't looked at my copy in FOREVER because I decided that they were too expensive (points and money) and not very useful. Haven't seen many people field them outside of friendly battles anyhow...

Something like always wounding on 3+ against demons, or additional strength, always attacking first in close combat, ect... A huge stack of benefits, but then the demon troops choices should be given "Without Number" or some such and arriving units are allowed to Deepstrike. Something equally offensive, giving the demons a chance to win by volume without having to trek across the table in the last couple of rounds.

A GK S6 PW "Relic Blade" is roughly as effective as paired LCs, so I'd start with basic Termie points cost of 40 pts, knowing that is a tad overpriced.

Rules-wise, change Shrouding to standard Night Fight all the time, and pull the anti-Daemon rules entirely to keep things simple and consistent.

Instead, have the GK Nemesis Force Weapon negate either Armour Saves *or* Invulnerable Saves (but not both) at the GK player's choice. This makes a Nemesis Force Weapon slightly better than a Relic Blade, and consistently better against Daemons without needing opponent-specific special rules.

Add WS5 Ld10 Fearless and those stupid wrist-mounted Storm Bolters, and a GK is "worth" 45 pts on average, assuming no extra charge for the +1A Sergeant.

you suck dd.

Don't make me reach through the Internet and spank you...

you would be arrested for child abuse.

I would be celebrated as a good parent!

go to the coluom with your name on it.

anyway, back on topic.

Overall I like everything you got there kid, although I would make sure to keep in the psycannon option (or at least some sort of weapon that ignores INV saves) to gear them a little more towards daemons as they are, in fact, daemon hunters.

oh shut up.

baga97 wrote:oh shut up.

Back on topic again.

I don't know about daemons needing a leadership check to charge the GKs. I'd like it a little better if invulnerable saves couldn't be made against some of their weapons. Which weapons I'm not sure, psycannon is awesome so far I'd say keep it. The reason I warn against daemons needing a leadership to charge them is that without assault daemons might be completely gimped against them causing a rock, paper, scissors game environment which I think is something we need to be moving away from.

Axyl wrote:aI would make sure to keep in the psycannon option (or at least some sort of weapon that ignores INV saves) to gear them a little more towards daemons as they are, in fact, daemon hunters.

That is why I suggested that the GK player can choose to have NFW negate invulnerable saves instead of armour saves. That gives the GK useful anti-Daemon HtH in addition to useful shooting.
____

Typeline wrote:I'd like it a little better if invulnerable saves couldn't be made against some of their weapons. Which weapons I'm not sure, psycannon is awesome so far I'd say keep it.

Psycannon is a no-brainer to keep, as it's the anti-Daemon gun.

Then all you need is a HtH weapon to complement.

Typeline wrote:
I don't know about daemons needing a leadership check to charge the GKs. I'd like it a little better if invulnerable saves couldn't be made against some of their weapons. Which weapons I'm not sure, psycannon is awesome so far I'd say keep it. The reason I warn against daemons needing a leadership to charge them is that without assault daemons might be completely gimped against them causing a rock, paper, scissors game environment which I think is something we need to be moving away from.

I agree there, i have a friend that plays GKs, But you also need to keep in mind that now with the new relentless for all Termies, the Heavy Weapons mean far less so the Psycannon is a lot stronger. To fix the melee problem i would say the GK gain the counter attack when assaulted by demons, and furious charge when assaulting them. for give the player the the option to buy such powers/model. This way they could keep the points roughly the same and still have the nice anti-demon melee advantage they would expect.

psf3077 wrote:

Typeline wrote:
I don't know about daemons needing a leadership check to charge the GKs. I'd like it a little better if invulnerable saves couldn't be made against some of their weapons. Which weapons I'm not sure, psycannon is awesome so far I'd say keep it. The reason I warn against daemons needing a leadership to charge them is that without assault daemons might be completely gimped against them causing a rock, paper, scissors game environment which I think is something we need to be moving away from.

I agree there, i have a friend that plays GKs, But you also need to keep in mind that now with the new relentless for all Termies, the Heavy Weapons mean far less so the Psycannon is a lot stronger. To fix the melee problem i would say the GK gain the counter attack when assaulted by demons, and furious charge when assaulting them. for give the player the the option to buy such powers/model. This way they could keep the points roughly the same and still have the nice anti-demon melee advantage they would expect.

I'm just not sure if giving GKs abilities that only function against demons is such a good idea. With that kind of rules set up if you sit down at a table across from a GKs player playing your demons at a tournament you should pretty much scoop your minis because you know this is an almost impossible victory.

I like the idea of abilities that are useful against a number of things but just have an inherent advantage against demons for some reason. Like the ignoring of invulnerable saves. They can ignore anyone's invulnerable save, Necrons/Eldar/MoT CSMs. But ignoring invulnerable saves vs. demons is a lot bigger because they primarily use the invulnerable save as their only save. I don't know how to give them an ability that is in general good but not directly geared toward defeating only demons though, besides the invulnerable save thing.

What about some method of ignoring Eternal Warrior?

I never liked the ignore Inv save rule since it breaks a fundamental game mechanic.

For the Psy cannon I was thinking something like

Assault 24", S4, AP2, +2 strength against daemons.

My concept is the psy cannon is a psychic gun that ignores armor and is anathma to demons but does not ignore invulnerable saves.

Having GKs hate demons (always hit on 3+) would give them an anti-demon advantage but not be breaking for demon players esp if demons get sustained assault.

The problem is that "hating Daemons" singles out Daemons excessively, and it really screws up the costs. If you cost the true value against Daemons, then the cost is excessive against non-Daemon lists. If you cost ordinary play, then it's too cheap against Daemons.

Currently, the GK are the worst possible design:
- anti-Daemon rule
- anti-Daemon cost offset by Daemon-specific bonus rules

It'd be better to pull both rules entirely for a generic effect that negates Invulnerables.

And really, what's wrong with a handful of units that negate Invulnerables?

Assuming that this went forward, it'd be limited to:
- GK Psycannon
- GK Nemesis Force Weapons
- Callidus Assassin
- Necron Lord (?)
- Dark Eldar Lord (?)

That isn't a very long list, and not at all unfair.

Orkeosaurus wrote:What about some method of ignoring Eternal Warrior?

I concur with this. All Deamons have it ( plus a number of other models in increasing amounts ) so it would be a good skill for Grey Knights to have.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
And really, what's wrong with a handful of units that negate Invulnerables?

Assuming that this went forward, it'd be limited to:
- GK Psycannon
- GK Nemesis Force Weapons
- Callidus Assassin
- Necron Lord (?)
- Dark Eldar Lord (?)

That isn't a very long list, and not at all unfair.

If im not mistaken isn't the GK incinerator also ignoring invul? (and cover besause of the template rule)
and also Necron Prahias have a weapon too [not 100% sure on that too]

If im not mistaken isn't the GK incinerator also ignoring invul? (and cover besause of the template rule)
and also Necron Prahias have a weapon too [not 100% sure on that too]

You are correct, Pariah's Warscythes ignore invulnerable saves, and the GK Incinerator ignores both invulnerable and cover saves (def. bonus in 5th ed).

Regardless, it's a fairly limited list of things that negate invulnerable saves compared to things that negate armour saves.

So the issues you really need to translate are:

Nemesis Force Weapon: 3 levels of use
Sergeants w/ Psy Powers
Shrouding
True Grit w/ Storm Bolters

My proposals:

Nemesis Force Weapon: Everyone is already hashing this one out. I think the Nemesis Force Weapon being able to ignore Invulnerable Saves is probably key, and the Instant Death caused by its use by a Psyker should ignore Eternal Warrior.

Sergeants w/ Psy-Powers:

Up to one Grey Knight in a Grey Knight Power Armor Squad may be upgraded to a Justicar for X points (probably 25). A Justicar is a Psycher and may select any of the following - Melta Bombs, Holocaust Psychic Power, Teleporter Homer, whatever else.

True Grit:

All Grey Knights in Power Armor get the Counter Attack USR instead.

Shrouding:

Grey Knights have +1 to their cover saving throws.

- Marty Lund

I think that:
- GK Characters and Termies have "True" Nemesis Force Weapons (S6 PW that negates invulnerable saves).

- PA GK have Relic Blades (S6 PWs).

I'd rather grant the GK Fleet than Counterattack.

I agree that Shrouding should be +1 to cover saves.

The reason I dislike taking away invulnerable saves and eternal warrior is that it creates a new arms race.

Sure GKs should take away Daemon fields, but then someone will say 'Ctan should be immune, they're full on Gawds!' so, OK, Ctan get 'Eternal Invulnerable Saves' and 'Invulnerable Eternal Warrior'.

And the someone gets something that overcomes the double plus invulnerable and eternal.

So I favor leaving them be. Things that have the GKs hitting demons harder or hitting more often offset their invulnerable saves without breaking existing rules.

First off, CTan would already die to Pariahs and Callidus and Necron Lords. The only change is that GK Characters and Termies would also negate the Inv save. I hardly see that as a game-changer.

You think that suddenly, we'll have loads of GK armies laden with non-Scoring 40+pt GK Termie running around?

I just can't see it.

I might be confusing them with another guy but if the callidus guys are the polymorfina and C´tan blade ones the text in the C`Tan says that not only they are inmune to the no inv save effect but that they absorb the weapon too leaving the assassin weaponless, isn´t that cute?

M.

It's why the Necron 'dex has the worst rules.

well as I play grey knights I do like the storm shield idea. However I am big on keeping the ignore invaluable saves b/c that's the plus of their heavy weapons. Also I think that their stats are fine as well as their points. They are costly but I think they just need 1 or two changes to their special rules. Keep in mind that they are just special space marines thus they should die as fast as regular space marines. As to changing what close combat wep and gun they have I would be strongly againts that. Its a very good combo and in my mind works extremely well. JohnHwangDD im even though giving all GK true nemesis force weapons would be nice it would also make them cost even more. I do think they should be granted counterattack because now thanks to 5th everything can run. So counter attck would be much more usefull. I also like your idea of a +1 to cover saves.

Also you can't really say that grey knights cost to much b/c of all of their upgrades. So if you look at it like this a regular space marine costs 15 points. (don't have the new codex so useing the one from 4th) Give him a bolter thats another 5 points so now he's 19 points' (-1 point cause he no longer has a regular bolter) then give him a nemisis force wep lets add on anther 5 points so now he is 24 points dunno the acutal cost of a nemisis force wep but i feel that 5 points is fair. Now that leaves all of the special ablilities he gets are only 1 point. Just think about that.

I can bow to pressure.

OK, so standard GK has a relic blade.
GK captain has a relic blade that also ignores invulnerable saves
GK Master has a relic force blade.