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Now, I know there's no precedent (that I'm aware of), but what about grey knight cavalry for a fast attack?

It struck me while reading Daemon World by Ben Counter (who conveniently also wrote Grey Knights). In that novel, he describes some desert nomads (worshippers of Chaos) who have magically enhanced horses (they show the ability to run on water/blood and up vertical surfaces.)
While the specific abilities don't strike me as GK, the idea of Grey Knight on some sort of steed seems apropos.

Hell, they could just be grey knights on bikes built to resemble horses.

In either case, I think we'd have to stick with the current system of a relatively strong close combat weapon, something like:

Nemesis Lance (2h)
This functions as a standard nemesis force weapon for the model wielding it, but also confers the Furious charge special rule

So a unit of Grey knight cavalry would have the following stats:

40 ppm, Justicar 60 point
Grey Crusader WS:5 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:8 Sv:3+
Crusader Justicar WS:5 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:2 Ld: 8
Sv:3+

Unit Type: Cavalry

Squad/Number: 4-9 crusaders and 1 justicar

Wargear: Nemesis Lance and Bolt Pistol.
The justicar may take Wargear from the DH armory as noted.

Special Rules: Grey Knight, Fearless



As a preliminary write-up, I've put almost no thought into balancing this unit.

However, for a bit of mathhammer, the strength of this unit comes from charging. On the charge, a full unit of Crusaders (cost: 420 points) will have 21 S7 I5 attacks, 3 of them power. Against a squad of MEQs
18 attacks, 12 hit, 10 wound, 3.33 kill
(power) 3 attacks, 2 hit, 1.66 wound
total of 4.99 MEQ kills on the charge.

Now, if charged, the total is
9 attacks (they can't gain the benefit of a pistol w/ a 2h weapon.), 6 hit, 5 wound, 1.66 kills
(power) 2 attacks, 1.33 hit, 1.11 wound
for 2.77 kills.

(Sorry for going so long, the idea caught me and I went with it.)

The only thing is every GK model has a gauntlet storm bolter. So in saying that I would seem to benifit them to have a gun attached to their hand instead of having to whield one while trying to stear a horse. Also I think the cavilry should stay with the IG however it could make an interesting Storm Trooper fast attack choice. A good idea would be give the lance to the bikers imho.

I'm not convinced. Grey Knight bikers/cavalry doesn't match the feel of the army. They tend to fight by precision not by roaring down the road.
While the GK are mean and deadly they're also highly ritualised, specificly sticking to equipment defined as 'the best' with no consideration for cost or efficiency.

Fluffwise remember that the advantage of such units is normally using them for long range patrols and scouting missions. Neither of which is a job given to a Grey Knight.

Stormtrooper bikes I like the theory of, they could even be used to represent Arbites/Enforcer highway patrol units. Conceivably they could be kitbashed out of scout bikers and the rumoured plastic stormtroopers fairly easily as well.

I would also like to see the abilty to infiltrate or deep strike stormies too. In 4th edition I would have advocated doing so by paying some extra points and upgrading them to elites choices but giving up scoring is a really big disadvantage in itself nowdays.

So stormtrooper bikes I like, however their save of a 4+ I think would hinder them greatly and be easy kill points. Thus maybe the buggie for stormtroopers? I don't mean to sound like I am all about the buggie but at the moment it has been my favorite fast attack idea.

Having read this thread through I see some great ideas, but personally I feel that a lot of this discussion is heading in the wrong direction. I'd like to bring the GKs back to their core tennants:

1. Faith in the emperor.
2. Every man a psycher.

There are currently some great rules that would represent this in a characterful manner- SoB faith. I would propose that almost all grey knights lose some of their elite abilities, but that it could be regained momentarily through a faith like system. In this case the NFWs represent a psychic/faith focal point that has to be utilised rather than always being on. On top of this a crapton more psychic/anti psychic abilities would be the way forward.

With this in mind I would be an advocate of a combined SoB/GK/Inquisition codex as fairly similar special rules could represent SoB and GK in a characterful manner. This could of course follow the current trend of HQ choice defining the army (so a canoness makes SoBs troops, an Inquisitor makes storm troopers/guardsmen troops etc).

I freely admit it's not a hugely fleshed out idea, but I feel it's a more characterful direction to take GKs than st6 power weapons across the board.

Good Idea but I have no idea how the SoB faith works because I have only ever played them once in a 1000 points game a long time ago. Seems promising however I wouldnt mess with the NFW. There has been an ease on that since we all have now seemingly agreed that if it isnt broke not to fix it.

OddJob. wrote:I'd like to bring the GKs back to their core tennants:
1. Faith in the emperor.
2. Every man a psycher.

I guess if we want GK armies to be based on 33+pt PA with 66+pt Sergeants & Termies, that would work, but aren't GK small enough already?

Also, what about the old RT-era Fluff in which the GK were mostly non-Psykers? Some of us take that as canon.

Agreed. If Gk get any more expensive I will stop playing them all togeather as will many more people.

Fair enough- I didn't make myself too clear there:

Example- currently all grey knights have +2 strength cc weapons...but it just so happens that this is an act of faith/psychic might as well (i'm not advocating that every model has a specific psychic power). Instead of having it in their profile, the additional strength would be something the squad would have to envoke.

It wouldn't be too hard to come up with a characterful list of 'GK acts of faith', for example the forcing re-rolls on invunerable saves previously discussed or the SoB spirit of the martyr gaining a 3+ inv save.

To carry this further, a justicar could be better than the mooks by having an act of faith always 'on', terminators become better again by having more than one always 'on' and the GM becomes daddy awesome by having loads always on.

---edit--- @ JohnW
I know nothing of the RT fluff. My knowledge starts with 2nd edition which had all grey knights in terminator armour and psychers (5 GKTs were an army that didn't loose too often). Much more cool in my opinion. I even put my money where my mouth is- my GK army is based around 18GKTs with storm troopers for troops.

See I wouldn't mess with the NFW that would just complicate things to much.

Let me first say one thing. I would not be surprised if we see a codex inquisition instead of Daemonhunters. I.E. It will incorporate all the inquisitional forces, Daemons, Witches and Xenos (such as deathwatch kill teams). It will also streamline things like inquisitors assassins and henchmen. I think this has actually been hinted at but, I say 2011 at the earliest. That aside specific grey knights changes that I can think of are.

Also I've always thought of GK as a shooty army that can assault if it gets really bad.

1) Pyscannons should be be assault cannons that ignore invul saves like they used to be before the new assault cannon came out. 4 shots rending
2) GK landraider crusaders/redemers should have twinlinked pyscannons instead of old school assault cannon
3) Who ever said shrouding should function like night fighting I concur!!
4) I like the stormshield idea, but I think BT have the monopoly on that already.
5) General cost reduction in model cost. Maybe to 20 - 22 points for a standard GK and an addition 10 -15 for a Sergent.
6) Teleporting GK can still claim objectives I.E. they are troops
7) Some interesting fast attack unit

JohnHwangDD
I am not sure about shrouding giving +1 cover save. Since this warhammer 40k coversave edition I think its a little to unfair to have your entire army able to get a 3+ cover save just by standing behind 4 point imperial guardsmen.
GK Characters having true force weapons may be a little to powerful but we can hope.

@dumplingman: Shrouding giving Stealth is simple and extremely clean, rules-wise. And, while they could get 3+ cover saves from 6+ pt Guardsmen, it means they're on foot instead of in Land Raiders. It also means that anything they shoot at also gets a 4+ cover save.

I think GK NFWs shouldn't be "true force weapons", but rather weapons that cause the opponent to re-roll all passed armor or invulnerable saves.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think GK NFWs shouldn't be "true force weapons", but rather weapons that cause the opponent to re-roll all passed armor or invulnerable saves.

Or ignore both saves, that would help get force weapons back to actually being useful agaisnt demons, their presumptive foes.

I also don't think it would be remiss to see Grey Knights given access to a few bits of more normal marine kit, and it would go a long way towards making them more useful against a wider array of opponenets. I'm thinking Predators, Rhinos and Whirlwinds for the most part, all three dating back to well before the chapter was founded fluffwise.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think GK NFWs shouldn't be "true force weapons", but rather weapons that cause the opponent to re-roll all passed armor or invulnerable saves.

Or ignore both saves, that would help get force weapons back to actually being useful agaisnt demons, their presumptive foes.

I also don't think it would be remiss to see Grey Knights given access to a few bits of more normal marine kit, and it would go a long way towards making them more useful against a wider array of opponenets. I'm thinking Predators, Rhinos and Whirlwinds for the most part, all three dating back to well before the chapter was founded fluffwise.

Jack

@Jack: The issue here is that we fundamentally disagree on what GK should be. I think GK are a small strike force that doesn't have the kinds of things that tie to digging in for a protracted siege (WWs) or standing battle (Preds) - GK teleport in and cut off the head of the snake.

Besides, Allied SM can provide some Rhinos and such, if needed.

Re-rolling invulnerables is great against Daemons, better on average than against MEQs. Ordinary Force Weapons and Relic Blades don't do anything against invulnerables, so they aren't what we really want here. Besides, they become way too expensive with uber Force Weapons.

I've changed my thinking on Shrouding. I think it should simply be a 5+ cover save like the Ork Biker cover saves. That way they have it at range but when you get into combat it doesn't work. that will allow the point cost to stay lower than if you gave them all 5+ inv.'s.

Again i'd say don't mess w/the NFW. Only down side is that all Greater Demons have Eternal Warrior. So i'm a little torn on how the GK Grandmaster's NFW should work.

I would love to see them all combined into a Codex inquisition. It would streme line things imo. Also the fact that the psycannon can be heavy or an assult wep is a nice touch imo. If they reduced it to just assult then they would also just give it an 18 inch range which would hinder the wepon greatly. Also the tele. GK being able to capture would be a great add since they are not a true fast attack choice.

As for How the new NFW could work i had an idea. The C'tan are immune to Instant death and anything that would causes it to take a wound with no saves even the invul. The NFW i think could do this only to all things that would normally be immune to Instant Death (Nids in Synapse, Eternal Warrior, ect.) Just a though. This would also make them cheep pt. cost too, and a bonus over normal Force weapons.

Quite simply, the C'Tan just don't belong in 40k - they're a rules and balance nightmare. I wouldn't base any design or balance decisions around them at all.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
@Jack: The issue here is that we fundamentally disagree on what GK should be. I think GK are a small strike force that doesn't have the kinds of things that tie to digging in for a protracted siege (WWs) or standing battle (Preds) - GK teleport in and cut off the head of the snake.

I don't disagree as such, but in that case we ought to go back to them being strictly a teleporting terminator strike force, rather then trying to include regular power armoured troops as well.

My suggestion is more along the lines of trying to make them more playable rather then anything else.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Re-rolling invulnerables is great against Daemons, better on average than against MEQs. Ordinary Force Weapons and Relic Blades don't do anything against invulnerables, so they aren't what we really want here. Besides, they become way too expensive with uber Force Weapons.

I'm mostly grousing about the moderate uselessness of Force Weapons for their theoretical task, the only daemons they're any good against anymore ary the generic greater from C:CSM has he is the only thing that lacks Eternal Warrior.

Jack

@Jack: I don't have any problem with Teleporting GKPA, or even Teleporting GK in Artificer. I just think that *all* GK should Teleport, but I don't see a need to limit them to Terminator armor. Indeed, I think GK should have a superior Teleport that allows them to pinpoint arrival without scatter, or scatter by the lower of the 2d6.

I agree that the GK NFWs should do more against regular Daemons, hence, recommending re-rolls of any saves.

JohnHwangDD wrote: @Jack: I don't have any problem with Teleporting GKPA, or even Teleporting GK in Artificer. I just think that *all* GK should Teleport, but I don't see a need to limit them to Terminator armor. Indeed, I think GK should have a superior Teleport that allows them to pinpoint arrival without scatter, or scatter by the lower of the 2d6.

Ah, that could be fun; combine it with every GK squad having essentially Gate for example, would give the army a very unique playstyle (much as Daemons have a very different army). Now that could be a fun army! Both to play with and against.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I agree that the GK NFWs should do more against regular Daemons, hence, recommending re-rolls of any saves.

My gripe is with Force Weapons in general, rather then the Nemesis Weap[ons in particular, but that would indeed be a nice step forward for them in this Eternal Warrior prevalent environs in either case.

Jack

I would love to see the standard weapon on a GK Terminator to be a Psycannon. That would be awesome, and truly make them terrifying.

Yes that would be great but also WAY overpowered. Hmm..Lets give everthing a gun that shoots 36 inches and ignores inv. saves, plus a +2 strentgh power wep.

Emrab wrote:Yes that would be great but also WAY overpowered. Hmm..Lets give everthing a gun that shoots 36 inches and ignores inv. saves, plus a +2 strentgh power wep.

It only shoots 36 inches if they don't move. The ignoring invulnerable saves isn't much of a big deal except to daemons, which the Grey Knights are supposed to be killing in droves anyway, and every GK has a +2 S CC weapon.

I can alrady have a unit of 3 Terminators with 2 psycannons, why not just let the other guy have one, too?

Adding more then one to a squad could be an understandable update if you payed for them. I have no problem with that. It's just giving it to them as a base wep. that I don't think is a good idea.