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Emperors Faithful wrote:Where does it say you can tank shock from reserve? Please, I'm dying to hear this...(No, seriously this thread has been going on for nearly 5...6 pages now)

For the last time then:

Page 94 on the "Arriving for reserve" section says to treat the unit as "if they where positioned just off the board edge and moved as normal" (actual quote from the BRB).

Page 68 on "Tank Shock" says that when moving a tank you can declare a tank shock instead of moving normally. All the conditions for performing a tank shock are thus fullfilled (sp?).

Nowhere on the BRB does it say that a unit partially on the table does not count as beeing on the table EXCEPT in the specific instances of Deep Striking and Falling Back.

Unless you can show me a rule that disproves any of the premisses pointed above then you have to agree that by RAW you can Tank shock from reserves...

"Instead of moving normally"? It says that you must arrive from reserve by moving normally. Tank Shock REPLACES moving normally (Hint: The "Instead of"). RAW defeats you.

You move on "normally"

You then move by Tank shock.

Reserves does not say you can ONLY move normally, it says this is hw you move on but gives you no further restrictions.

To answer your fall-back etc fallacies: IF A implies B B cannot be said to imply A without further information. Reciprocity is NOT a part of the rules -if it were then you could not assault tanks as tanks cannot assault. As this is patently false you have a problem....

Emperors Faithful wrote:"Instead of moving normally"? It says that you must arrive from reserve by moving normally. Tank Shock REPLACES moving normally (Hint: The "Instead of"). RAW defeats you.

Except GW has ruled that turbo-boosting during a scout move is "moving normal." Surely this is applicable.

Where does it say you can tank shock from reserve? Please, I'm dying to hear this...(No, seriously this thread has been going on for nearly 5...6 pages now)

Right here, from page 2:

P.94:
When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the
table from the controlling player’s own table edge
(unless it’s deep striking or outflanking). Each model’s
move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if
they had been positioned just off the board in the
previous turn and moved as normal.

Your argument seems to be that a Tank Shock move is not normal, which is your own interpretation of the rules since GW never defines what is and is not considered "normal" movement. They make this mistake several times throughout the rulebook.

Precedent would suggest that GW's conception of "normal" is extremely broad, even so much as to include variations in the BRB explicitly marked as "special". For instance, there has historically been much debate over whether or not the Scout rule permits usage of the Turbo-Boosters special rule:

P.76
Scouts are used to reconnoitre ahead and are always in
the vanguard of the army. To represent this, after both
sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before
the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may
make a normal move.

Many argued, as you do here analogously, that the Turbo-Boosters would not be permitted during a Scout move because it is not "normal" movement as required by the rule. However, GW clarified in the BRB FAQ that Turbo-Boosters ARE allowed during this move (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2030054_40k_Rulebook_March_2009.pdf).

While it has no direct bearing on RAW, arguing what the GW developers meant by "normal" movement doesn't either.


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"Instead of moving normally"? It says that you must arrive from reserve by moving normally. Tank Shock REPLACES moving normally (Hint: The "Instead of"). RAW defeats you.

One can also argue that it is normal for a Tank to move via Tank Shock, just as it is apparently still normal for bikes to use a SPECIAL rule in place of their typical movement. Again, no definition of normal movement leaves your argument without a leg to stand on (as it does with any counter-argument).

In the end, without an official clarification you'll have to convince either opponent or TO of your position, and I think you'll find people unwilling to allow a Tank Shock from reserve in a very small minority.

d

@Emperor's Faithful: There's a reason why Dashofpepper has stopped posting in the thread. All of his assertions have been shown to be extremely shaky or wrong... and you're simply repeating them.

Emperors Faithful wrote:"Instead of moving normally"? It says that you must arrive from reserve by moving normally. Tank Shock REPLACES moving normally (Hint: The "Instead of"). RAW defeats you.

There you go again. It doesn't say anything of the kind, it says that it is considered a normal move not that you must arrive by normal move, that normal move can, like every other normal move, be replaced with a tank shock.

Stop trying to add things that are nowhere in the rules.


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willydstyle wrote:@Emperor's Faithful: There's a reason why Dashofpepper has stopped posting in the thread. All of his assertions have been shown to be extremely shaky or wrong... and you're simply repeating them.

Actually Dashofpepper stoped posting because his posting rights were suspended by a moderator...

willydstyle wrote:@Emperor's Faithful: There's a reason why Dashofpepper has stopped posting in the thread. All of his assertions have been shown to be extremely shaky or wrong... and you're simply repeating them.

No i think has more to do with

Frazzled wrote:Dash will not be replying for a few days. Lets ixnay on calling people who disagree with your cheaters.

dated 2009/07/23 13:47:56

Haha, good point Tri... I missed that. Anyways... I still think that his assertions have mostly been debunked.

I wouldn't say debunked, I'd just say that they are nowhere near as concrete as he wanted them to be. The only rules that talk about units going off the table involve falling back and deep-striking, and so aren't applicable here. Some models literally cannot move on the table without a portion hanging off. There's no definitive argument that this can't be done, and since tankshocking this way can be carried out in accordance to the rulebook, it's allowable.

Well... considering that the "models off the table cannot effect models that are on the table" argument is not grounded in the rules, I don't know why so many have spent so much time on it.

Okay 'ere we go.

Pg.68 "When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehichle is going to attempt a tank shock attack INSTEAD of moving normally."

Pg. 94 "Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the boardn the previous turn and MOVED AS NORMAL."

It is clear that you must move on the table NORMALY, and it is also clear that Tank Shocking is NOT a normal move.

Therefore, you cannot Tank Shock onto the field.

Dashofpepper wrote:You can settle this quite easily....

Call GW and ask them if deploying 6" tank model .01mm on the table with the rest of the vehicle off the table is legal. If they go for it, I'm game; short of that....sounds pretty clearly like drivel and a blatant attempt to cheat.

How about no you two faced hypocrit.

Earlier you said, and I'll quote:

"If you can show me documentation (FAQ or errata) from GW supporting that you can tank shock from reserves, so be it. A random person on the internet saying, "GW said...." is meaningless in any discussion. "


But now that someone has pointed out .01" is on the table, its ok to call GW and then come back as a random person on the internet saying "GW siad...." its ok?

Talk about talking out both sides of your mouth....

Emperors Faithful wrote:
It is clear that you must move on the table NORMALY, and it is also clear that Tank Shocking is NOT a normal move.

Therefore, you cannot Tank Shock onto the field.

Except, as you just quoted, tank shocking is done instead of normal movement. That means, anything that allows normal movement, allows tank shock.

It's really that cut and dry.

I have no idea how you keep mis-reading this.

The rules are permissive. Unless it expressly says that you can tank shock instead of moving normally YOU CAN'T.

@carmachu: phew, for a second I thought you were talking to me! (P.S. Be carefull, you might get pulled off for a while like Dash)

I agree with Emperors Faithful, Carmachu, play nice.

As for the actual topic of discussion, I don't really think this is going to resolve. Instead, either everyone'll give up on trying to convince the others, or this topic'll reach 9485903873745908390683904860935860975903750 pages of the same arguements over and over reworded differently.

GW CHANGE THE RULES!!!!

In the stirctest sense, by RAW, i am correct. However I'll be the first to admit that this is YMTC, not RAW. So mabye RAI COULD let you tank shock. But I don't think it was EVER intended for people to have thier whole army in reserve anyway.


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(For so long at least)

I propose a new Ork rule "DYNAMIC ENTRY!!!"

I thought that was tau?

now assuming you CAN tank shock otho the field AND your oponent must move models aside, but cannot then i'd assume he is and his units in the path (or under) of the tank are destroyed? or would i be mistaken?

Emperors Faithful wrote:I thought that was tau?

It's a rule?


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I thought Ork cause it being something an Ork would do. Flashy entrance, like the naruto reference.


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Flashy entrance that involves fighting.

No, it's about this conversion about a tau battlesuit deepstiking right on top of a space marinz face. It was titled, DYNAMIC ENTRY: Who sucks in close combat now? Orks and rules were not involved.

I saw that, but the connection didn't click.

I was just thinking that making it a rule, but for something that would need it in the right condition would probibly resolve this discussion.

here's the picture for reference

Emperors Faithful wrote:Okay 'ere we go.

Pg.68 "When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehichle is going to attempt a tank shock attack INSTEAD of moving normally."

Pg. 94 "Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the boardn the previous turn and MOVED AS NORMAL."

It is clear that you must move on the table NORMALY, and it is also clear that Tank Shocking is NOT a normal move.

Therefore, you cannot Tank Shock onto the field.

Take another look at Page 94. That sentence can just as easily (and just as validly) be read not as saying that the vehicle must be moved as normal, but that it is considered to have moved as normal in its previous turn while it was positioned just off the board. Because of the grammatical design of the sentence, you cannot conclude, RAW, that this sentence mandates normal movement, making whether or not Tank Shock is normal irrelevant.

So, RAW yields two equally valid interpretations.

Paintbrushturkey wrote:now assuming you CAN tank shock otho the field AND your oponent must move models aside, but cannot then i'd assume he is and his units in the path (or under) of the tank are destroyed? or would i be mistaken?

Probably not. If they have to fall back but can't they're destroyed. If they pass theird LD check, then tank shocked units move the shortest distance to get them out of the way.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

augustus5 wrote:I don't have anything to add to this that can be put into words better than Dashofpepper already has. But I wanted to throw in my support to him and the other "No Tank Shocking from reserve" crowd.

I think it's absolutly crazy to think that one can tank shock from reserve when the tank shock rules are written the way they are. The biggest thing that kills it is the part where the tank stops before hitting the target unit and waits for them to react. The tank at that time is off the board and in my opinion should not have anything to do with the pieces on the board already.

I think t's important to remember that most of us will never see a situation come up where someone has nowhere to deploy from their table edge.

You missed the point where it is demonstrated that, at the time of the tank shock, the tank CAN be on the table. Which throws your argument out the window.

Dash - is "on the table" in any way qualified? No. Thus putting it 1mm on is fulfilling it. You really, really haven't got an argument against this, despite your attempts at deliberately twisting words.

You are the one adding and changing words, or in other words attempting to deliberately cheat. Well done.

I know this isn't covered in the BGB so from a RAW standpoint you may have a point that being 1mm on the table constitutes being in play. From a RAI standpoint I think it's clear that models partially off of the table edge are removed from play.

My first example is fleeing troops that come into contact with the table edge are removed from play.

My second example is deep striking units that are partially off of the table edge are removed from play.

I really don't see this as me missing the point. I think you've missed the point big time if you think that you can bring on a model partially onto the table from reserve.

Beyond all that the models don't technically "move" onto the table. They are to be placed at the tables edge and treated as if they had moved normally.

Well, if we want to try and divine the intentions of the developers, do you really think they intended for tanks to be destroyed by infantry blocking a board edge when under any other circumstances they could simply run right through them?

augustus5 wrote:
My first example is fleeing troops that come into contact with the table edge are removed from play.

Already covered and debunked: If A implies B you cannot say for certain that B implies A. A rule for moving off the table when you are broken clearly has no relation ot a unit moving on from reserve.

augustus5 wrote:
My second example is deep striking units that are partially off of the table edge are removed from play.

Incorrect. They are not removed, instead they mishap. 5th ed rules. They may die but it is just another mishap.

augustus5 wrote:
I really don't see this as me missing the point. I think you've missed the point big time if you think that you can bring on a model partially onto the table from reserve.

Beyond all that the models don't technically "move" onto the table. They are to be placed at the tables edge and treated as if they had moved normally.

They do indeed move onto the table - they are at the edge with no special rule for how far theve moved (so no chance of claiming cover saves etc, front edge of tank at edge of table) and you then move on. If you really think that Monoliths should be destroyed when moving on to the the table then you have a different idea of intent than me. If they really wanted you to HAVE to bring models fully on, even when they can't, they should have said something about it. IN addition the Valk battle reports have consistently had them move 6" on so they can fire weapons, and the entire model cannot be on if you do that - it's simply too big. I'm just pointing out what is legal and by the rules, but haven't said what I would do in games - I normally play that it must be supported, except in this case of someone being an arse and exploiting the rules. Although I'd never get caught out by it, it's a fairly obvious ploy to defeat....