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If the table edge for arriving units (say, in dawn of war) is completely blocked, can a vehicle tank shock onto the board?

I don't see why not. You're suppose to turn your vehicle in the direction you're tank shocking, but this can just as easily be done off the board as i see it. Everything else from there is regular movement.

Yes. Thats the problem with trying to block off the board. You just tank shock through and everyone follows the tank. Ridcully is right.

No.

If your opponent blocks a table edge you automatically score a moral victory and can walk away from the table without having to do any such tank shock move.

And why is that?

... your army can only follow the tank if the unit tank shocked fails it moral test. If they pass the test the tank simply moves through them

They still have to get out of the way of the tank, leaving a nice gap to walk through.

Mekboy wrote:And why is that?

Because you have the gratification of knowing that your opponent doesn't think he can win in a straight up fight. If your opponent has resorted to trying to stop you from placing a model on the table to win he's basically admitting that he is a massive tool. Instant moral victory (and make sure you tell him that )

Mekboy wrote:They still have to get out of the way of the tank, leaving a nice gap to walk through.

the only part under tank shock about moving other models is if the tank would end up in the same space as enemy models, so if your declared speed takes you completely beyond the enemy unit, they don't move.

Correct, they only have to get out of the way of the tank if they're literally going to be underneath it when it finishes its movement. A unit that passes it's morale test just stands there while the tank continues 'through' the unit.

This means, assuming the enemy unit doesn't fall back, there's only going to be an inch of space around the vehicle if it stops on top of the unit. As models have to remain more than an inch away from enemies, this would be no help unless your tank stops an inch from the edge and your unit is small enough to fit back there without being near enemies on either side. The alternative, again assuming the unit passed it's morale test, is that the tank passes straight through and there's no space made.

Just because an opinion is popular does not make it right. No...you cannot tank shock onto the table.

Tank shocking is a specific category of "movement" that happens during the movement phase, and prescribes a set of directions for doing so.

1. Declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally. That "moving normally" is VERY important.

2. Turn the vehicle on the spot in the direction you intend to move it and declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move.

3. The vehicle must move at least at combat speed.

4. Move the vehicle straight forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared.

5. Resolve tank shock with leadership tests (and/or death or glory).
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Important note: Units NOT ON THE TABLE are reserves. Whether mission reserves or true reserves, they are still in reserve.
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To bring a unit from reserve into play, you do a few things:

1. At the start of each movement phase except the first, BEFORE MOVING ANY UNIT, the player must roll a dice for each of his units in reserve.

2. Once all units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and DEPLOYS it., moving it onto the table as described later.

**Under the next section "Arriving from Reserves"

3. When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (unless its deep striking or outflanking)
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Problems with tank-shocking from reserve:

1. a tank shock is elected instead of moving normally. However, reserve deployment happens BEFORE normal moves. Bringing a tank onto the board isn't a normal move that can be exchanged for a tank shock...deployment happens first.

2. The MANDATORY conditions of a tank-shock cannot be met by a unit off the table. To execute a tank shock, the first thing you do is turn the vehicle on the spot....you cannot turn a vehicle that has not deployed into the battle.

3. Another mandatory condition of a tank-shock: The vehicle must move at least at combat speed: Units not on the table aren't moving at any speed. They are moving at no speed, and then deploy onto the table. Deploying units can NEVER deploy within 1" of an enemy model.

4. When you tank shock a unit, you stop at the edge of the unit. From there, that unit may choose to death or glory, or they may choose to take a leadership test and get out of the way. If you were to tank shock into a unit at the edge of the board....your tank stops at the edge of my unit. Which *still* leaves you off the board. Units on the table cannot be affected by units off the table. You don't get to fire plasma guns from vehicles in reserve, nor extend a leadership bubble from off the table...stuff off the table has no effect on the game. There isn't an invisible continuing board edge that extends past the boundaries of the table where you may play from. There just isn't.


So no...you can't tank shock onto the table from reserves. Attempting to do so completely ignores all the rules for movement, deploying, and tank shocking.

If you're playing against a speed-freak ork army, or raider spam dark eldar, or maybe even eldar....anything that can get to your table edge and cover the WHOLE thing....and you choose to keep your whole army in reserve....you deserve what you get. That's just poor generalship. =p

Dashofpepper wrote:
If you're playing against a speed-freak ork army, or raider spam dark eldar, or maybe even eldar....anything that can get to your table edge and cover the WHOLE thing....and you choose to keep your whole army in reserve....you deserve what you get. That's just poor generalship. =p

Sorry but if i'm playing mech Tau, Eldar or Dark Elder we just come in off the board edge and laugh that you thought you could stop skimmers that way.

Dashofpepper wrote:Just because an opinion is popular does not make it right.

and neither does your opinion on it no matter how well written, its still an opinion.

this has been brought up several times and general consensus including answers from GW customer service are yes, you can tank shock from reserve. In fact they were the ones who pointed out using this to beat the reserve blocking conga line when that whole annoying ta tactic got brought up.

If you can show me documentation (FAQ or errata) from GW supporting that you can tank shock from reserves, so be it. A random person on the internet saying, "GW said...." is meaningless in any discussion.

Short of that, what I wrote is not an opinion. I quotes the rules for you, then pointed out conflicts in attempting certain actions and where they cannot be resolved together. You're welcome to play HOWEVER you like; its your hobby. However, if you ever play against me, and this situation arises, you can expect me to hold you to following the rules.

Quoting the rules, and applying them correctly, are not the same thing.

You seem to be confusing the term 'deploy' in the rules. When you deploy from reserves, you do it *by* moving onto the board. You do not place the model, and then move; you simply move onto the board.

Dashofpepper wrote:If you can show me documentation (FAQ or errata) from GW supporting that you can tank shock from reserves, so be it. A random person on the internet saying, "GW said...." is meaningless in any discussion.

Short of that, what I wrote is not an opinion. I quotes the rules for you, then pointed out conflicts in attempting certain actions and where they cannot be resolved together. You're welcome to play HOWEVER you like; its your hobby. However, if you ever play against me, and this situation arises, you can expect me to hold you to following the rules.

Except for the fact the only time you actually 'deploy' from reserves is when you deep strike.

All other times, you move from the table edge.

I can't believe that if I moved a skimmer 24" from a table edge that it would count as 'deployment' and not grant me a cover save.

Yeah, despite the impressive wall o text, dash is completely in the wrong on this one. Tank Shocking from off the table is a completely legal move.

#3 is where his argument totally falls to pieces.

As I mentioned earlier, deployment (aka...moving onto the table) happens before the normal movement. Thus, you can't substitute a tank shock for a normal movement because its a deployment movement.

And you can't get past the fact that the board has an edge. Things off the board don't affect things on the board. You can roll up to troops on the edge of the board and declare a tank shock all day; I'm going to ignore it because your tank isn't actually on the board. IE, it isn't in play. You can't shoot me from off the board, you can't assault me from off the board, you can't cause leadership checks and potential death in my unit from OFF THE BOARD.

There's a 48" x 72" table; anything on there is kosher for tank shocks. The rest of the room away from the table is not our playing surface.

So feel free to look at the quotes rules and apply then correctly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bookwrack wrote:Yeah, despite the impressive wall o text, dash is completely in the wrong on this one. Tank Shocking from off the table is a completely legal move.

#3 is where his argument totally falls to pieces.

My "argument" wasn't an "argument." They were several mutually exclusive issues that don't rely on each other to abide by the rules. If you have an objection to #1 through #3 because you choose to interpret the rules differently than they are written, that's fine by you; but you can't get around #4.

Dashofpepper wrote:If you can show me documentation (FAQ or errata) from GW supporting that you can tank shock from reserves, so be it. A random person on the internet saying, "GW said...." is meaningless in any discussion.

Short of that, what I wrote is not an opinion. I quotes the rules for you, then pointed out conflicts in attempting certain actions and where they cannot be resolved together. You're welcome to play HOWEVER you like; its your hobby. However, if you ever play against me, and this situation arises, you can expect me to hold you to following the rules.

play it how you see it. if you and whoever you game with read it this way then fine, more power to you even if you are playing wrong.
just so long as your playing on a level playing field it doesnt really matter.

quoting text is fine and dandy but the way it is interpreted is a different matter entirely.

Dash, you are reading in too much.

The reserve units deploy by 'moving onto the board', it *is* their normal movement, it just starts from the board edge because they are entering from reserves.

Despite your claims, there is no rule that says their movement is not their normal movement for the turn. And if you are right, it entirely breaks the game, since we have nothing telling us how far, or even how, they can move.

Dashofpepper wrote:
3. Another mandatory condition of a tank-shock: The vehicle must move at least at combat speed: Units not on the table aren't moving at any speed. They are moving at no speed, and then deploy onto the table. Deploying units can NEVER deploy within 1" of an enemy model.

P. 94, 'Arriving From Reserves' :"When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (unless it's deep striking or outflanking)."

Seeing as how the unit must move (which is a condition for tank shock, btw), it can't not move as dash has claimed.

Bookwrack wrote:
Yeah, despite the impressive wall o text, dash is completely in the wrong on this one. Tank Shocking from off the table is a completely legal move.

#3 is where his argument totally falls to pieces.

QFT

Guys, you have selective reading much? Those four objections are mutually exclusive - addressing one of them in a matter that you feel is satisfactory doesn't annul the rest of them.

Unless we're in agreement?

If you can tank from the edge and are death or gloried what happens to the fellas inside it if it was a transport.

As always, if they can't disembark, they are destroyed

Dashofpepper wrote:As I mentioned earlier, deployment (aka...moving onto the table) happens before the normal movement. Thus, you can't substitute a tank shock for a normal movement because its a deployment movement.

WTF is deployment movement? There is movement. It occurs during the movement phase, shooting phase or assault phase.

It doesn't happen 'before' normal movment. It just happens at the beginning of the movement phase. It's 'normal' movement that just happens to be happening first.

I don't get this 'deployment movement'.

You either deploy or move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

orkcommander wrote:If you can tank from the edge and are death or gloried what happens to the fellas inside it if it was a transport.

If they can't disembark from the transport, they are removed as casualties.

Going to continue quoting myself since everyone seems to be conveniently ignoring the most obvious flaw with the idea of tank shocking from off the table edge...


4. When you tank shock a unit, you stop at the edge of the unit. From there, that unit may choose to death or glory, or they may choose to take a leadership test and get out of the way. If you were to tank shock into a unit at the edge of the board....your tank stops at the edge of my unit. Which *still* leaves you off the board. Units on the table cannot be affected by units off the table. You don't get to fire plasma guns from vehicles in reserve, nor extend a leadership bubble from off the table...stuff off the table has no effect on the game. There isn't an invisible continuing board edge that extends past the boundaries of the table where you may play from. There just isn't.



Yep. If you attempt to tank shock onto the table, regardless of the other points I made....your vehicle is still OFF the table when it "theoretically" would run into a unit on the table. At which point you'd say, "I'm tank shocking you." And your opponent would say, "With what?" And you would say, "This tank that is invisibly sitting at the edge of the table." And your opponent would say, "Stuff that isn't on the table isn't in play. Nope."

If your opponent does not let you tank shock onto your board edge that he blocked himself, he is no gentleman. This is a gentleman's game.

Im not going into a huge arguement here, but Id have to say I see no problem with tank shocking. All the arguements against it are sketchy at best.

Arguments against....

I don't know...like the fact that you're trying to influence the game with stuff that is in reserve? And not on the table?

Well, it no longer is in reserve, its coming onto the table. You assume its making a normal move from the edge of the table. The edge of the table is where the front of the model/base is. It starts there and can do whatever it wants under normal restrictions. There is no deployment move or anything like that, or else youd be able to move when its the movement phase.

I would say can tank-shock onto the field.
But I have to concur with the fact that allowing your whole table to be covered by the enemy is simply bad generalship.

Also, synchronicity is absolutley right. Try to avoid playing with douches. (But never back down from a challenge)