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You need to declare that you are making a tank shock after moving at combat speed. Deploying from reserves does not count as moving at combat speed, neither am I conviced you can declare a tank shock with a unit not on the table yet, since units not on the table can only deploy, and can use none of their abilities, until on the table.

This is all conjecture at best, and a serious oversight in the rules which can lead to increadbible arguments. That aside, the biggest issue Dashofpepper brought up that can not be ignored is DEATH OR GLORY!

Even if you get overruled that tank shocking is allowed from reserves, declare death or glory and you deny your opponent any room to rest on the board. There is no arguing against this since there is no possible way to get the vehicle on the table legally.

But that is only if the vehichle is sucessfully stopped by Death or Glory isn't it?

Anyway, ya kind of deserve it for handing your opponent your deployment zone.

So basically if I get my army to block my opponents table edge before he brings in reserves, I would auto win?? That doesn't sound fun =P

Dashofpepper wrote:
4. When you tank shock a unit, you stop at the edge of the unit. From there, that unit may choose to death or glory, or they may choose to take a leadership test and get out of the way. If you were to tank shock into a unit at the edge of the board....your tank stops at the edge of my unit. Which *still* leaves you off the board. Units on the table cannot be affected by units off the table. You don't get to fire plasma guns from vehicles in reserve, nor extend a leadership bubble from off the table...stuff off the table has no effect on the game. There isn't an invisible continuing board edge that extends past the boundaries of the table where you may play from. There just isn't.

QFT

There's no way of getting around this one, regardless of the other points made about movement.

I realise that many people, playing nicely, would see no problem with this, and would allow their opponents to tank shock from off the table.

However, RAW, you cannot get around this rule.

1. In order to tank shock, you MUST stop the model touching the enemy unit. You MUST. It's in the rules.
2. You cannot do this, as the tank would be off the table.
3. The enemy cannot death or glory, as they cannot shoot at a unit that's off the table.
4. You cannot place units halfway on the table, if they cannot completely fit on the table they cannot arrive.

How would you end up in this situation?
I don't see any possibilty of your opponent covering your whole board by turn one. (or even turn 2...or 3). And you should have SOME guys on the field at that point no?

Emperors Faithful wrote:How would you end up in this situation?
I don't see any possibilty of your opponent covering your whole board by turn one. (or even turn 2...or 3). And you should have SOME guys on the field at that point no?

There's a lot of ways infiltrators, bikes with scouts using turbo-booster, ect.

Also I've had games where my army hadn't turned up till turn 4. Since I was playing mech Eldar we would have just jump over the blocking units which is why he didn't bother to try it.

But covering the whole 6 feet of the battlefield?!?

Emperors Faithful wrote:But covering the whole 6 feet of the battlefield?!?

6 foot = 72inches
-1" each side = 70"
models must be within 2" of one another and are on a 1" base. So roughly... Total Number of models = (70/3)+1+(Number of units-1) =

1 unit of 24
2 units of 12.5 (total 25 models)
3 units 8.6 (total 26 models)

ArbitorIan wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
4. When you tank shock a unit, you stop at the edge of the unit. From there, that unit may choose to death or glory, or they may choose to take a leadership test and get out of the way. If you were to tank shock into a unit at the edge of the board....your tank stops at the edge of my unit. Which *still* leaves you off the board. Units on the table cannot be affected by units off the table. You don't get to fire plasma guns from vehicles in reserve, nor extend a leadership bubble from off the table...stuff off the table has no effect on the game. There isn't an invisible continuing board edge that extends past the boundaries of the table where you may play from. There just isn't.

QFT

There's no way of getting around this one, regardless of the other points made about movement.

I realise that many people, playing nicely, would see no problem with this, and would allow their opponents to tank shock from off the table.

However, RAW, you cannot get around this rule.

1. In order to tank shock, you MUST stop the model touching the enemy unit. You MUST. It's in the rules.
2. You cannot do this, as the tank would be off the table.
3. The enemy cannot death or glory, as they cannot shoot at a unit that's off the table.
4. You cannot place units halfway on the table, if they cannot completely fit on the table they cannot arrive.

Sorry, but both of you are wrong. It can be done.

First, is if the models are not on the very extreme edge of the table, all you need is .001" of space between the model and the edge.
Second, if the models are right on the edge, there is still space between them, so all you need to do is enter the board at a slight angle, and you are not on the board, and effecting other units/models on the board.

Your number 4..... is your conjecture, and has no actual support within the rules. The rule "if they cannot completely fit on the table they cannot arrive." does not exist.

agreed with Coredump: Nowhere in the rules does it require you to place the models FULLY on the table when coming on from reserves.

So simply find a point where the base is not entirely touching the edge (hint: its a circle, so there will be such a place) and come on from there.

Agree with what you like, and CONJECTURE various scenarios all you like, but it doesn't change facts:

If an enemy has lined your deployment zone, with 2" coherency across the entire edge of it, then you're done. When you tank shock, you stop at the edge of the unit you are tank shocking. This would require you to stop at the edge of the table, still not on the board.

Answer me this: Can a unit on the table fire at something not on the table?

I'd encourage you to call GW and ask for a rule call.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

coredump wrote:

Your number 4..... is your conjecture, and has no actual support within the rules. The rule "if they cannot completely fit on the table they cannot arrive." does not exist.

Let me flip that around on you: The rules are permissive. Show me in the rules where it says that models and units not on the table may move, fire, and take actions just like things on the table. Its not a case of "I have to show you where you're not allowed to," its more of a case of, "You have to show me where you are allowed to."

The game table is usually 48" by 72". That's the entire surface of the gaming table. Anything not on that gaming surface is irrelevant to the game, except for the two people moving models around on the table.

Ah, your conjecture continues.

The rules state "you must move onto the table"

They do not say "you must move fully onto the table"

By moving 1mm on, you have complied with the rule - the model is on the table. This is a permisive ruleset, I have shown my permission. Now you must show some actual rules (not your repeated conjecture) to restrict this movement. Which you won't be able to do, given there have been multiple page threads on both here and 'seer that have come to the same RAW conclusion.

So since the rulebook doesn't say "You must move fully onto the table" its ok for a 20 man squad to deploy with 1 model on the table and 19 models off the table?

Go away troll.

Who's trolling now? Stop being intentionally obtuse.

So long as each of those twenty models has part of their base on the table, they've met the deployment requirements.

Bookwrack wrote:Who's trolling now? Stop being intentionally obtuse.

So long as each of those twenty models has part of their base on the table, they've met the deployment requirements.

Can you show me that in the rules? I'm not being intentionally obtuse....I may have been in the dark all this time. Something along the lines of "as long as a model is partly on the table...."

Because if that doesn't exist, you're just blowing smoke. When the rulebook refers to deploying "on" the table, the word "on" has a pretty clear meaning. On is not the same as OFF. On is also not the same as "partially present" On/OFF is a switch. You go from one state to the next.


*EDIT* Or better yet, tell me that you're trying to redefine the english language so that it allows you to cheat at a game that is supposed to be a fun social interaction.

If you are partially on the table, then you are on the table. It is by definition, you are partially *on the table*.

So, if you need to move on the table, you can move partially on the table, or fully on the table; both of those are cases of being on the table.


Lets put this in reverse, the rules say you can't move off of the table. So by your logic, that 'really means' you can't move FULLY off the table. So it is okay to move partially off of the table.

That is, of course, ludicrous. The rule says you can't move off, that means you can't move fully off, and you can't move partially off.
The rule says you must move on, that means you can move full on, or partially on.

When you tank shock, you stop at the edge of the unit you are tank shocking. This would require you to stop at the edge of the table, still not on the board.

Or, more correctly.... You move onto the board until you contact the enemy, which in this case, means you enter the board at a slight angle, move the .1" until hitting the side of the model, and stop to resolve the tank shock.

to cheat at a game that is supposed to be a fun social interaction.

So by arguing that there is no way to move their vehicles onto the table from reserves... that is the 'fun' version of the game? I must have missed that.

coredump wrote:

to cheat at a game that is supposed to be a fun social interaction.

So by arguing that there is no way to move their vehicles onto the table from reserves... that is the 'fun' version of the game? I must have missed that.

I'd have to say the person throwing around the word "cheat" is likely to be the one pissing in the fun social interaction pool.

That is certainly how it's going in this thread. See also the one vehemently declaring others as 'troll.'

You can settle this quite easily....

Call GW and ask them if deploying 6" tank model .01mm on the table with the rest of the vehicle off the table is legal. If they go for it, I'm game; short of that....sounds pretty clearly like drivel and a blatant attempt to cheat.

After reading this whole thread, it is clear that DashofPepper has an air-tight arguments with the rules quoted for support (assuming he is quoting accurately).

Unless the aforementioned FAQ/Errata stating otherwise can be ascertained, I have to agree with Dash; which does indeed stink for those trying to sneak a tank through a "conga" line.

maybe this needs to be written up as a RAW vs RAI argument.
RAW = no
RAI = yes
unfortunately GW expects people to have fun with the game and this hole asinine edge blocking tactic never even registered to them due to it. hell, i had to explain it to them 3 times before they would finally agree that it was possible to pull off.
BTW... GW customer service feels tanks can shock onto the board and jump troops can jump over blockers. just FYI since i know the consensus on GWCS

i guess there's more fun to be had in trying to figure out the fastest way to screw your opponent through rules loopholes/inadequacies or enforcing RAW in situations that were never intended to happen than playing the damn game.

*shakes his head in disbelief*

On the one side of it, you have rules, quotes from rules, and a crystal clear answer to the question about tank shocking from off the table.

On the other side of it, you have ignoring the rules, no quotes from the rules, and muddy opinions that come down to nonsensical "the rules don't say I can't flip the gaming table over and stomp on my opponent's models to declare a win for myself, so I'm obviously allowed to" arguments.

Thanks for the support; I feel like an isolated nanny surrounded by screaming children in a daycare center.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

usernamesareannoying wrote:maybe this needs to be choked up to a RAW vs RAI argument.
RAW = no
RAI = yes
unfortunately GW expects people to have fun with the game and this hole asinine edge blocking tactic never even registered to them due to it. hell, i had to explain it to them 3 times before they would finally agree that it was possible to pull off.
BTW... GW customer service feels tanks can shock onto the board and jump troops can jump over blockers. just FYI since i know the consensus on GWCS

i guess there's more fun to be had in trying to figure out the fastest way to screw your opponent through rules loopholes/inadequacies or enforcing RAW in situations that were never intended to happen than playing the damn game.

So you had to explain to (John Spencer probably?) a customer service rep who packs and ships boxes and doesn't spend all day poring over the rules what your case was over and over again until he finally agreed with you to get you off the phone? Why are you even bothering? =p The answers you get are varied and inconsistent.

Lemme say it again: Call GW and ask them if deploying .01mm on the board with the other 99.9% of your model off the board is legal. If they say yes; I'm ok with the idea of tank-shocking onto the table. Short of that....you've got no case.

*EDIT* And as for having more fun trying to figure out the fastest way to screw your opponent, we can revisit this argument. If you wind up in a situation where this happens, you deserve to lose the game on the spot. Such tactical incompetence is literally unforgivable. There's about...ONE deployment option where it could happen, requiring a specific type of army list to pull it off, and requires the other player to hold everything in reserve.......yeah. If it happens to you, you deserve to be laughed out of the store.

P.94:
When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the
table from the controlling player’s own table edge
(unless it’s deep striking or outflanking). Each model’s
move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if
they had been positioned just off the board in the
previous turn and moved as normal.

As per GW, the model is to be treated as if it is off the board and then moves normally, onto the table. Coredump is 100% correct in that a model partially on the table is still on the table. You can claim troll all you like, but he's still correct. If you want to refute this point you need to do some quoting of rules yourself, specifically you'll need to locate a passage claiming that only models fully on the table count as being on the table.

Similarly, if you argue that models off the table cannot affect models on the table you will also need to quote some rules supporting this. Also, I find it strange that you believe models on the table can affect models off the table, since you don't believe the opposite to be true.

Lemme say it again: Call GW and ask them if deploying .01mm on the board with the other 99.9% of your model off the board is legal. If they say yes; I'm ok with the idea of tank-shocking onto the table. Short of that....you've got no case.

As always, a phone call to GW doesn't constitute a ruling in any way, shape, or form. Might as well ask the local red shirt for an equally uninformed response.

To quote Danny's quote:

"...as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal."

That clears it up for me.

You pretend the vehicle starts at the board edge, then declare the direction and number of inches you want it to tank shock.

I don't see how that violates any of the rules for moving on the board from reserves, or any of the rules for tank shocking.

willydstyle wrote:To quote Danny's quote:

"...as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal."

That clears it up for me.

QFT. It's just movement as normal... except it starts at the board edge.

Of course if someone on that picket line does a DoG on the vehicle it then gets interesting (and uncharted territory rules-wise)... in that case I'd play it as the embarked squad is lost.

The Green Git wrote:

willydstyle wrote:To quote Danny's quote:

"...as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal."

That clears it up for me.

QFT. It's just movement as normal... except it starts at the board edge.

Of course if someone on that picket line does a DoG on the vehicle it then gets interesting (and uncharted territory rules-wise)... in that case I'd play it as the embarked squad is lost.

But since the model which makes the DoG attempt must be in the path of the vehicle's movement, you should be able to choose not to move through melta gunners etc.

The further rule quotes you're looking for probably involve deployment and/or disembarking, and the fact that you can never deploy or move within 1" of an enemy unit (except to tank shock or to assault). The inability to deploy a unit because of enemy presence leads to that unit being destroyed. Blah blah blah...read page 1 and original rule quotes.

*EDIT* And I have to throw this in here again...the entire concept is completely ridiculous. So you have a tank with the barest hint of its nose on the table. The rest of the tank is off the table. How do you measure to shoot when its weapons are off the table?

There will never be a game when I allow you to (yes, here it comes) CHEAT by using units not on the table to affect the course of the game on the table.

And as for the quote about "starting from the edge of the table"......yes, you start measuring from the edge of the table, not from OFF THE TABLE. Your models need to fit onto the table, your measuring starting from the edge of the table, and not be within 1" of an enemy unit for it to be a legal deployment. You don't get to start measuring from off the table, you start from the table edge. If your vehicle is 6" long, then you start from the edge of the table, measure how far you'd like it to move, then place it accordingly, following the rules for deployment.

If the entire table edge is walled off....then you're not going to get to do it; your tank is going to be unable to come on from reserves.

Dashofpepper wrote:The further rule quotes you're looking for probably involve deployment and/or disembarking, and the fact that you can never deploy or move within 1" of an enemy unit (except to tank shock or to assault). The inability to deploy a unit because of enemy presence leads to that unit being destroyed. Blah blah blah...read page 1 and original rule quotes.

I did. I found your arguments to be ambiguous at best. The quote that Danny provided was very clear.

willydstyle wrote:
The quote that Danny provided was very clear.

Good! Now follow the rule that he quoted. Measure from the edge of the table, place your vehicle down within its prescribed deployment allotment depending on the type of vehicle it is, and follow the rest of the rules for deployment....specifically the one about not being within 1" of an enemy model.

Then you're all set!

Dashofpepper wrote:Arguments against....

I don't know...like the fact that you're trying to influence the game with stuff that is in reserve? And not on the table?

It's almost like...that was the point...

Important note: Units NOT ON THE TABLE are reserves. Whether mission reserves or true reserves, they are still in reserve.

I call BS on that.

Why? Because it's wrong.

Units that do not deploy in DoW are not in reserve, they are 'off table'. NOWHERE in the rules does it say they're in Reserve, so they aren't.

Thinking you can't Tank Shock onto the table is, above all, terrible sportsmanship, and also, wrong.

Rules don't say wholly on the board - and since it's unlikely that models press-ganged into this service will be able to stop the tank via DoG, it'll continue it's distance anyway. I wonder if you'd say a Baneblade can't ever enter play...

EDIT: Where, exactly, in the DEPLOYMENT rules does it say you have to be 1.0000000000000001"+ from enemy models?