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Another good example of how a unit that is in reserves may affect the table, Nosferatu.

Dash you need to make up your mind. Are you going with the RAW or RAI?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Dash you need to make up your mind. Are you going with the RAW or RAI?

I think several posters don't even think that Dash's opinion is based on a correct interpretation of RAW.

Thanks for your answer, Dashofpepper. I see your point and if a situation like this would ever occur in a game I play (and I guess I would be the tank guy not the block guy most probably), I guess I'd suggest to roll a 4+ and see what happens, because you have some arguments, the other side has some arguments and as far as I see it the rules are simply not detailed and/or clear enough. However, you have to admit that your answer on the monolith/BB question is a little bit RAI tainted.

As far as RAI goes, a little thought about something mentioned earlier in this thread, where someone said that there is no logical way a fragile line of infantry could stop a tank from rolling into a section of a battlefield; in 40k, many rules are rather symbolical (offensive grenades have a rather symbolical than direct impact, for example). One could RAI-wise argue that a general who managed to deploy a solid line of infantry across an edge of the battlefield was able to disrupt the enemies reinforcements in some kind of off-board battle/mission. There are units that do this (Master of the Fleet) and there are special occasions where this is a possibility (grave deep-strike mishap). I could live with that explanation on why tank-shocking does not work. Although, I see the RAW rather in favour of tank-shocking.

I feel like switzerland.

During my movement phase Im going to move my guys halfway off the table is that legal? If it is than you can tank shock, if its not legal then you cannot tank shock since youre off the table at the time of impact. Where is Gwar when you need him?

Boss_SneakyDakka wrote:During my movement phase Im going to move my guys halfway off the table is that legal? If it is than you can tank shock, if its not legal then you cannot tank shock since youre off the table at the time of impact. Where is Gwar when you need him?

There is a specific rule saying you cannot move of the table edge, there is no specific rule saying you must move entirely on the table.

However, I think there is a strong case for the idea that there is no requirement to actually be on the table to tank shock.

While it has been stated many times in this thread that models off the table cannot effect models on the table, however this is not a rule, either explicitly, or by precedent. In fact, the precedent seems to point to models off the table being able to effect models on the table, when given permission to by the rules.

The rules say that a unit moving on the table from reserves move "just as if they had been placed at the table edge the turn before and moved normally." To me this means that the move onto the table is a "normal move" and so a tank shock move may replace that normal move.

Most chapter tactics do not require the models on the table. In fact, they would act very strangely if they did.

Actually, most (all I have found so far) of the models that require being on the table to have effect actually state as much.

The rules seem to allow tank shock from off table.

Not that it helps my Tyranids - although I would very much love to walk spore mines onto the table and then detonate them into such a line.

Boss_SneakyDakka wrote:During my movement phase Im going to move my guys halfway off the table is that legal? If it is than you can tank shock, if its not legal then you cannot tank shock since youre off the table at the time of impact. Where is Gwar when you need him?

Please read the thread before posting - that was covered, explaiined and refuted much earlier.

Also you may not be off the table at the time of impact. If 0.1mm of you is on the table (such as the corner of a tank) then you are on the table. If you don't think that this can be done then please explain how a line of circular bases can completely cover a single straight line (board edge) - I mean you can't actually do so, but if you want to try nooone will stop you.

This whole thing has been over analyzed to death. Dash basically wants a way to table his opponent without rolling a single dice. Is that how the game should be played? If you have to think about it that is just really very sad.

I'm glad I left this thread alone now...

I think a comprimise is in order.

I say, only if you have no units on the board, then yeah fine, because not doing so inncurrs a stale mat unless the opponent moves significantly out of the way.

However, if this situation occurs, I hearby give you permission to pick up as many of their figures and throw them at them, giving yourself enough space to place you units.

Just don't come looking for me later.

Im not arguing for the sake of arguing, or a means to table my opponent. As a mech ork player, this is an important issue. The rules dont favor either argument strongly enough. So in short this is my final analysis:

Tank shocking should be allowed as a way of moving onto the table. In the spirit of the game. I was presenting tank shocking from the table as a no-no to hopefully provide a deeper discussion in the hopes of finding an answer. Unfortunatetly GW has left us with no clear answer. Its up to as player to be civil and have fun. So Im for Tank Shocking onto the table, I just feel that the rules dont support it clearly enough.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Autarchs modify the reserve roll when off the table. That is most definitely affecting the game....

Autarchs modify the reserve rolls....so do lictors. They affect the game by simply being in your army list, and I encourage you to read my apples and watermelons analogy above, since it directly applies to the horrible example you're trying to give to justify breaking the rules to cheat.

Autarchs are NOT allowed to sit off the edge of the table and snipe at units on the table. You treat models off the table in reserve as sitting on the edge for the purpose of determining how to move them on, as explained in the rules.

Simply ridiculous. If you can treat a tank off the table as "in play" and tank shock it onto the table, then there's also no rule holding you back from leaving it there, and shooting it as well. Nor is there any rule keeping models on the table from assaulting your imaginary unit off the table. In fact....here's a great compromise (I'm serious)

If you can tank shock onto the table because your tank is treated as being at the edge of the table, then to make it fair....if you keep your whole army in reserve, and I can get to your table edge on turn 2 before you roll to come out of reserves, then I should be able to assault your army sitting on the board edge. I move to the edge of the table, and you're treated as sitting at the edge of the table. That puts us in base to base contact, and I can shoot you, then assault you while you sit in reserves off the table.

You guys ok with that? While you're attempting to cheat, we might as well go at it full blown.

Witzkatz wrote:@Dashofpepper and Trasvi: So, you say moving a Baneblade/Monolith in from reserve and not being able to get 100% of the model on the table is different from getting only 0,1% of a model onto the table. Alright. Trasvi said there needs to be an exception for large models. Alright.

So, don't get me wrong: From a RAI point of view and for the sake of a nice game, I would totally agree with you! But especially Dashofpepper, you were arguing pure RAW the whole thread and now, when this question comes up, this situation is all of a sudden totally different? You offer no rules statement or even real argument for this. You just say "Well, 90% of a model is different from 1%", if I understood you right. Again, from a RAI point of view I totally agree on that, but if you want to argue RAW, and that's what you're doing, you need to show me and the guys a rule where it says "90% are ok, 1% is not."
If you can't come up with a rule like that, there is no RAW difference between these two cases and you'd either have to disallow big units to come in from reserve...OR allow tank shocking when a vehicle can fit 1% on the table with being 1" away from enemy troops.

Again, I'd agree that if NO part of the model, not even the smallest, can get onto the table without fulfilling the 1" criterium, that tank shocking would most probably be not in order.

(So in the end, we're talking about a situation as probable as...as...an asteroid hitting the 18th hole in a golf tournament at the exact same time as the player's golf ball (which is, of course, instantly evaporated...would it score, though? ))

I think there needs to be a friendly exception for large models such as the Baneblade or Monolith, because their inability to come in from reserves is purely due to the model design and rules design teams not communicating (see Valkyrie). There is not a rule saying this, and indeed RAW you probably can't bring your baneblade on.
I still have never seen any people attempting to get more board space by leaving some parts of their models off the board. Everyone knows the board is floating in the warp surrounded by a wall of fire. I believe the rules for fleeing models are perhaps the best example of that in the rules.

If this becomes a RAI argument ... it wasn't intended for people to block off an entire table edge .

Dashofpepper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Autarchs modify the reserve roll when off the table. That is most definitely affecting the game....

Autarchs modify the reserve rolls....so do lictors. They affect the game by simply being in your army list, and I encourage you to read my apples and watermelons analogy above, since it directly applies to the horrible example you're trying to give to justify breaking the rules to cheat.

Autarchs are NOT allowed to sit off the edge of the table and snipe at units on the table. You treat models off the table in reserve as sitting on the edge for the purpose of determining how to move them on, as explained in the rules.

Simply ridiculous. If you can treat a tank off the table as "in play" and tank shock it onto the table, then there's also no rule holding you back from leaving it there, and shooting it as well. Nor is there any rule keeping models on the table from assaulting your imaginary unit off the table. In fact....here's a great compromise (I'm serious)

If you can tank shock onto the table because your tank is treated as being at the edge of the table, then to make it fair....if you keep your whole army in reserve, and I can get to your table edge on turn 2 before you roll to come out of reserves, then I should be able to assault your army sitting on the board edge. I move to the edge of the table, and you're treated as sitting at the edge of the table. That puts us in base to base contact, and I can shoot you, then assault you while you sit in reserves off the table.

You guys ok with that? While you're attempting to cheat, we might as well go at it full blown.

Except for the fact that a unit must be able to draw LOS to be able to shoot something, and the rule for arriving from reserves simply tells you to treat the unit as though it were at the table edge for movement purposes. Nobody is saying that you can always effect things from off the table all the time, but just that this is one of the instances where you are told how to effect things, for the purpose of moving on the table only.

+1 from above.

Dash: I notice you still ignore that you can indeed be ON the table at the time of the tank shock. Afraid of RAW now that it undermines your argument?

Dash will not be replying for a few days. Lets ixnay on calling people who disagree with your cheaters.

Actually, where is Gwar! ?
Not like him not to get involved in ANY 5-page thread, nevermind a rules one...

Anyway, you can't trace LOS from off-table, so you can't shoot.

Makes it a pointless analogy.

Don't say the daemon's name.

I think Gwar was suspended as well...? Remember reading him say something about that.

Anyways, yes, you can tank shock onto the table, for all the reasons already given. There's a whole slew of guys that don't have to be on the table to create in-game effect. If moving onto the table is indeed movement, as covered by the rulebook, then tank shock is allowed.

Clams has it right.

Moving on to the table from reserves is movement, and tank shock is allowed.

However, it is risky to attempt with transports, because if a unit passes it's Morale check, DoGs, and destroys your transport at the table edge w/o any room to disembark, you lose the guys inside.

Yes its risky but it is a lot better than the alternative.

First post here (signed up to contribute), and I'd have to say that, Rules as WRITTEN, you CAN NOT Tank Shock. I believe Dash is correct, but his arguments have sort of dissolved.

Going entirely off RAW, You CAN NOT bring in a Monolith from reserves, assuming it's bigger than 6". The same goes for the Baneblade if it's width is 6"+. The regular definitions for on/off the table here are irrelevant. GW has already set the precedent with 'on the table'. If even 1% of a model's base is off the board edge during a fallback move, they retreat off the board. If even 1% of a model's base is off the board edge during a deepstrike, you roll for a mishap. So why is it that this stops applying for having models on/off the board? If you have even 1% of your vehicle off the board, then it's off the board. The same applies if you have 99% off the board. So, RAW, your vehicle ends up 99% off the board and thus is off the board, by 5th edition's rules.

This was not how rules were intended, but that is irrelevant here. Rules as written, GW counts 1% off the board as off the board (and you have proof via other rules saying so), and in this situation your vehicle will end up more than 1% off the board.

As far as the whole reserves/dow/declaring tank shock go, that is also irrelevant. Maybe you can, maybe you can't. But even if you can declare the tank shock, you can't fulfill it because your models ends up, by GW's written definition, off the board.

If you're wondering how this could ever happen, I can think of a way to do this easily. You have to go first. Take 2x warbosses (on bikes if you want), 2x10 nob bikers. Standard build, right? Give them various stuff for wound allocation. Now you can deploy your 1x HQ and 2x Troops regularly. Deploy all of the bikes 2" apart from each other and at the very edge of your deployment zone. Move flat-out. You can get to the board edge with that. Turn your models sideways. Doing this, you can cover a standard board lenght with about 17 sideways bike models. You'll have three-four extra models, that can take wounds before your blocking models do. When your opponent's turn rolls around, he won't be able to move anything in, short of jump/skimmers. He can try to work on killing your nobz to bring in his stuff later, but with wound allocation and 10x nobs per unit, plus a potential Warboss to soak wounds, he'll have to put in a lot of effort to manage it. You'll even get a 3+ cover save for the first turn from your flatout move. Use the rest of your points for anti-infantry and monstrous creature, to deal with HQ/troops. This list becomes more effective as you get into 2000-2500 points, where you can afford to purchase the bikers and still have enough left to purchase enough to kill his hq/troops without moving the bikers from the edge.

In reality this list will only work if you know what your opponent is fielding AND you get first turn AND you're playing Dawn of War. It requires you to highly specialize, and if they have any skimmers, jump troops, outflankers, or deepstrikers, it seriously hurts your efforts.

As for the close-minded people talking about WAAC etc etc, I'm going to be polite. Tournaments exist. I'd never pull this in a friendly game, but provided it were actually viable, I'd easily do it in in a 2000-2500 points tournament.

Except that page 94 allows movement onto the edge to occur "as normal", and tank shocking is an accepted subset of normal movement rules.

Gestapo Anon wrote:
Going entirely off RAW, You CAN NOT bring in a Monolith from reserves, assuming it's bigger than 6". The same goes for the Baneblade if it's width is 6"+. The regular definitions for on/off the table here are irrelevant. GW has already set the precedent with 'on the table'. If even 1% of a model's base is off the board edge during a fallback move, they retreat off the board. If even 1% of a model's base is off the board edge during a deepstrike, you roll for a mishap. So why is it that this stops applying for having models on/off the board? If you have even 1% of your vehicle off the board, then it's off the board. The same applies if you have 99% off the board. So, RAW, your vehicle ends up 99% off the board and thus is off the board, by 5th edition's rules.

Except that those rules are specific for fallback moves and for deepstrike and so have absolutely no relevance to how the models move in to the table from reserves.

But it also says that tank shock is a special attack. You can't attack the enemy if you are even SLIGHTLY off the board. Also, if enemies aren't allowed within one inch of enemy models, does this rule suddenly stop if coming from reserve? I would think not.
I agree with Gestapo anon here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Phantom Viper: How can you say they are not relevant? If the model is even TOUCHING the board, in ANY case, it is considered off. These are just some examples from the BRB to support this.

Emperors Faithful wrote:But it also says that tank shock is a special attack. You can't attack the enemy if you are even SLIGHTLY off the board.

Please show me where it says this in the BRB?

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Also, if enemies aren't allowed within one inch of enemy models, does this rule suddenly stop if coming from reserve? I would think not.
I agree with Gestapo anon here.

The declaration of Tank Shock allows you to approach to BtB.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
@Phantom Viper: How can you say they are not relevant? If the model is even TOUCHING the board, in ANY case, it is considered off. These are just some examples from the BRB to support this.

Again, show me the rule in the rulebook that supports the claims you make on the text I bolded?

The only instances that I can find are for the specific cases of falling back and deep striking.

1) Pg 68 of the BRB. Read it, learn it, love it.
2) That was not related to vehcihles, I was wondering if people believed infantry could come on the same way.
3) Pg 95 for Deep strike and Pg 45 for falling back. It is only reasonable to assume that such a rule applies universally. (otherwise that would mean you could move your guys off the board, which is just ridiculous)

BIG ARGUMENT: Remember, rules are PERMISSIVE. Just becuase it doesn't say you CAN'T doesn't mean you CAN. It must expressly say so.

Emperors Faithful wrote:1) Pg 68 of the BRB. Read it, learn it, love it.

Pg 68 does not say anywhere that you can't perform a Tank Shock if you are only partially on the table.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
2) That was not related to vehcihles, I was wondering if people believed infantry could come on the same way.

No, infantry cannot do that because you come into the table from reserves during the movement fase and it specifically says that during your movement fase you can't approach within 1" of an enemy unit (unless you declare a tank shock).

Emperors Faithful wrote:
3) Pg 95 for Deep strike and Pg 45 for falling back. It is only reasonable to assume that such a rule applies universally. (otherwise that would mean you could move your guys off the board, which is just ridiculous)

There is no such thing as "reasonable" in the rules written by GW!

Rules do not apply universally unless they say that they do. You have several instances of rules in the BRB that would contradict each other if that was the case.

Also, why wouldn't you be able to move your guys off the board during your movement phase?! Of course, they wouldn't be able to get back so they would count as destroyed so I can't see any advantage of actually doing it...

Emperors Faithful wrote:
BIG ARGUMENT: Remember, rules are PERMISSIVE. Just becuase it doesn't say you CAN'T doesn't mean you CAN. It must expressly say so.

Yes, you are absolutely right. Of course the rules in this case expressely say that you can so we are all in agreement in this point.

Where does it say you can tank shock from reserve? Please, I'm dying to hear this...(No, seriously this thread has been going on for nearly 5...6 pages now)