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In all UK stores you can use the instore computer to order anythng that isn't in stock, it gets shipped to the store for no extra cost, and is payed for just like buying it off the shelf. Sadly due to lack of demand special characters such as Creed are no longer restocked in stores, I had the same problem when I wanted to buy Azrael . . . but through the use of the intrawebz you can easily buy whatever you want, at no extra cost, and with just a bit of a wait =]

But that was his whole point though, what's the point in an actual brick and mortar store if you have to go online to get what you want anyway? What good is a store that doesn't actually stock most of their product?

I don't really care if the guys in the GW store can go online for me, if I have to wait either way then I might as well go back home and place the order at Maelstrom.

Yes, that's Maelstrom Games. www.maelstromgames.co.uk

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well, that settles it. Thanks to that poll I'm setting up a shrine to Jervis tomorrow, cancelling my order with Maelstrom and buying full-price retail from now on.

Or, y'know, not.

Aside from that there's no point in dignifying the post above mine. It's almost as if anyone who isn't suckling at the breast of GW lapping up everything they do and taking everything they say as gospel is somehow a 'hater'. Wake up and stop being so damned blind.Criticism has its place.

Thanks so much for "dignifying" my post even though you made the point with such tremendous disdain. You're correct, however, about criticism having its place: within well-reasoned discussion that isn't threatened by being confronted with counterarguments. Or is that "suckling at the breast of GW lapping up everything they do and taking everything they say as gospel"? I guess I should "wake up and stop being so blind."

But enjoy your shrine to Jervis, which will be built with proceeds GW has earned from you through Maelstrom--you rebel, you.

Also, people who hate are haters. If you hate GW, you're a hater. If you don't hate GW, and are therefore not a hater, then I wasn't talking to you.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:If you are a consumer, you are entitled to criticise your product of choice, or reframe from purchasing based on your dislike of certain aspects of the product. This does not make you a 'hater', this isn't a religion, this is an overpriced box of toy soldiers.

HBMC is the only one talking about religion. And again, you are a 'hater' if you hate GW. Completely agree that you're allowed to criticize a product. I'm not sure why this, such an obvious point, keeps coming up. No one says that you aren't allowed to criticize.

CT GAMER wrote:
That linky only begs more questions:

1. Are many Gw fanboys willing to stomach just about anything GW feeds to them rather then admit the object of their desire blows?

2. Are many Dakka members really young and have only played 5th edition?

3. Are some people so overwhelmed by the grief of how much money and times they have spent on the game that they refuse to accept defeat?

(1) This is a hard one because you're asking whether people secretly hate the thing they claim to like. My inclination is to say "no" but I can only guess at the real motives of another individual much less two hundred some.
(2) Even if many Dakka members are young and have only played 5th, this is good evidence that GW is a solid company: after all, they've managed to attract a large number of the current generation who like and enjoy their rules without relying on the feelings of irrational nostalgia you suggest in question one.
(3) This looks like question one reworded so I'll direct your to answer one until you can elaborate further.

CT GAMER wrote:1. Are many Gw fanboys willing to stomach just about anything GW feeds to them rather then admit the object of their desire blows?

2. Are many Dakka members really young and have only played 5th edition?

3. Are some people so overwhelmed by the grief of how much money and times they have spent on the game that they refuse to accept defeat?

1. Nah, some of us have cut GW spend dramatically and only get awesome new stuff like Superheavies or Valks on deep discount.

2. I'm pretty old, started playing 40k back in 2nd, and I wouldn't go back except to play spoiler armies that illustrate the sheer stupidity of that ruleset. Massed Warp Spiders. Massed persistent Templates. Wraithguard. Vortex Grenades. Setting stuff on fire. Destroying terrain. 5th plays so much better than anything before, especially for big, sweeping games.

3. This is somewhat possible, but then I've got other games and hobbies, too. I suspect that GW is slowly becoming my biggest time/money investment, as things like D&D and M:tG fade into memory or gather dust.

So perhaps:

4. Is 5th really the smoothest-playing and least rules-encumbered version of 40k to date?

JohnHwangDD wrote:I suspect that GW is slowly becoming my biggest time/money investment, as things like D&D and M:tG fade into memory or gather dust.

This is exactly my experience--well, encompassing the larger world of 40k. I'm painting and playing but also reading more and more BL books and Dark Heresy has supplanted my D&D lately.

Cheese Elemental wrote:And yet we still continue to play their games. If you dislike the company and whine about the game, why do you still play it?

That's not an argument, it's just some food for thought.

Because there's no point spending £££'s on a collection that no one else plays. I would play Skaven, but only 2 out of 18 people at my club play WHFB, one of which has a large beard.

My experiences with GW have been both positive and negative. The positive aspects are the many friends and acquaintances I have made over the years. It is always great to see a friendly, or at least familiar face, at a tourney somewhere. The fact that I can go pretty much anywhere there is a GW in the world and get a game of hammer in is fantastic. In that respect it's like a Masonic Lodge for Nerds. The stores have changed a lot over the last 20 years, as the product has too. I'm sure there are people on this board who have fond memories of the Storm of Chaos or when LOTR was relevant. I don't, because I was gaming with my own pack of nerd friends.

Negative aspects are definitely real. The staff is like a real-live telemarketer who wants to tell you about how awesome Furies are or something. 90% of the staff are cool guys who are just doing their job, so I don't mean to hate on anyone personally. But that in your face "Buy this Codex that'll be out of date next Thursday" hard sell is total BS. On the weekends, the stores generally smell like a dirty gym locker (reekend gaming). Generally, there is no fun in schooling some 13 year-old who believes using "Forked lightning" during the magic phase is going to win him the game.

But there is a difference between the company and the retail shops. The company does make some awesome minis and a lot of cool stuff. I'm addicted, aren't you? They could do better to support the lines they have, or maybe give gamers a bit more leeway with alternate lists or something. A better White Dwarf that wasn't just a monthly new release catalouge would be lush. And a price freeze would be great too.

In the end, it's the people you play with, those relationships which make WFB or 40K so much fun. blah blah blah

I think us veteran gamers are in danger of bringing the rose-tinted glasses to this discussion. Of course when I was in my early teens and the sun shone every day and school holidays stretched for eternity, it seemed like GW was the most down to earth, caring / sharing business going. In reality, they were just as money grabbing then as they are now. Miniatures have always cost a bomb, and nowadays is no exception. That doesnt mean I agree with it; just stating the facts here.

GW are in the relatively comfortable position if having almost a complete monopoly - and they milk it as much as humanly possible. At the end of the day they are in it to win it, so to speak. Yes they screw up, yes they charge too much but they have consistently produced games that keep drawing us in for decades now and that's quite an achievement. Personally, I'm quite ambivalent about GW; I loathe their pricing policy and lack of support for specialist games but there isnt much I can do about that in reality.

filbert wrote:I think us veteran gamers are in danger of bringing the rose-tinted glasses to this discussion. Of course when I was in my early teens and the sun shone every day and school holidays stretched for eternity, it seemed like GW was the most down to earth, caring / sharing business going. In reality, they were just as money grabbing then as they are now. Miniatures have always cost a bomb, and nowadays is no exception. That doesnt mean I agree with it; just stating the facts here.

That's not correct, the figures were really not so relatively expensive when I started collecting the figures at the age of 11 in 1987. The company was run by people with love of the hobby, people who also sat down and played games their own company didn't own.

The change occured when the company became a PLC, answerable to shareholders with no interest in the hobby and managed at senior level by people who thought people who play with toy soldiers are weird. The hardcore change, when I left the GW fold myself and stopped collecting, was the so-called red age in the later 90s, when at about 21 years old my patience with GW (who had taken to painting everything red to appeal to children) started to actively discourage older players, treating us rudely in the shops (I remember being booted off a table to make way for a demo game for little Timmy and his mum) and drove all their efforts into recruiting the pokemon generation.

It is the cynical and all consuming greed that the company demonstrates so openly these days that angers and alienates me. Take a look at the financial report and the statement at the beginning of that, heralding a price hike for plastic miniatures since they are 'of the same high standard as the metals', the metal figures were hiked in price amidst hokum about 'very expensive tin' and now the plastics will be raise to match them. The company moving it's target demographic to a much younger consumer has paid off, they are far less likely to question or doubt the company.

I just put £500 into obtaining the remaining WW game Vampire the Masquerade books (now out of print) from sellers on amazon, that's 2 months hobby budget, I don't spend this on GW products because I cannot bring myself to do it, I won't be taken for a mug by this company. The profit markup on the models is vast and unjustified, they are in trouble because they are slowly strangling themselves with inflated price. If they priced reasonably, I would buy my one army...then expand on it, then begin another army. There are probably 10 armies I could list that I would happily build if the price was right, my ire at their base greed prohibits this and will result in me building my ork army via ebay and online lowest price retailers then calling it quits.

Just look at his his avatar, Meangreenfightingmachine knows the deal, and I concede to his experience alone.

He can do it, so can you!

Whippersnapper... Get off my lawn!

i like GW. I don't love them nor do i wish them a firey end.
GW got me into tabletop gaming, otherwise id still have few friends and still be spending most of my time drooling over the Tamiya and Dragon catolouges (i still do but much more reserved)
They have easy games to get into. many many places to purchase from and over the last few years thier quality has improved.
What i don't like is the very PUSHY sales. Their staff are trained to push and push until you either leave or tell them to wind thier neck in. Now im lucky that ive been a regular at my local GW they dont push me anymore. we have a proper conversation and i enjoy it more now than i did in the past.
When selling to a hobbyist, you cant push a product down their throat. if i want something i will bloody well buy it and not because you told me it has a new box!
I wont call them underhanded. Have you walked into or worked in a computer game store? same damn thing.

I think they have been demonised more because, as the market leader they dont always meet expectations and do things that some arnt happy with. But if they did everything we wanted they would be outta business in a month.

BoW- John

[quote=JohnHwangDD4. Is 5th really the smoothest-playing and least rules-encumbered version of 40k to date?

Most Portuguese general shops are not like that, in fact they most of the times just ignore you ( wonder why they are all closing lol)... but we dont have GW and doubt we ever will, one thing for sure pushy sales in portugal would get them a black eye

So do I like GW? Some of their products yes, goldendeamons also... the company and the persons? cant be arsed to be honest, although I do admire Jes goodwin work.

Hi all.
I often wonder if those customers who love/like GW , have anything to compare them to?

I can find lots of cheaper alternatives , and beter quality free to down load rules on line!

I can understand those that like some of the GW products.

But why do they put up with the GW 'wallet rape' , and GW treating all thier customers like morons ?

WHOOOOOT BUY This NOW with a KEWL NAME !!!!!(and pay more than if you buy the kits seperatley.... )

Pay 2 to 12 times as much for an item because its been re branded to have a GW logo.

As GW is the first exposure alot of young gamers get to TTGs , I often think they give the wider table top wargaming hobby very little credance or undeserved bad rep.
This is a very bad for the wider hobby in general IMO.

So I say GW suck!

TTFN
Lanrak,

@ Lanrak

I play many other game systems, and I still like GW. And since when did buying the battleforce boxes (and similar deals) cost you MORE than the separate ones? I'm pretty sure that every one GW has done has cost you LESS than buying the stuff separately . . . so erm . . . fail?

Also, although some things can seem to be over priced, this is to balance the fact that less will be sold, that's basic economics and business sense.

HI Oshova.
I dont class Battle force or Battalion boxes as 'Kewl' names...
Look at the 'Planet Strike' 'deals' a bit closer...

Can you list 4 different games from 4 seperate NON GW companies that you play on a regular basis?

Because then we can discuss what is so different between GW and other companies...

And as regaurd to you last statment .
If GW sold thier product at similar prices to other companies, they would sell more product and grow thier customer base!

Or are you saying its good to sell product at grossly inflated prices , because at these prices they would sell a lot less but still manage to dupe fewer poor fools into parting with thier cash and keep thier turn over static , like they have for th last 8 years...

Plastic manufacture is geared to maximise economies of scale , the more you make the cheaper the product becomes and the more profit you make!
However the 'estute corperate minds' at GW price product so high they kill demand and can not maximise profits in the way every other plastic manufacturer does.

I like the GW game settings and the SG rules, and the quality of the GW products (apart from WH and 40k rules ) are generaly very good.

However when corperate managment alienates thier customer base with a combination of arrogance and ignorance is not great buisness practice , is it?

So GW corperate managment and most of thier buisness decisions suck.

Ergo GW PLC as a company sucks, (comparativley,)not the product perse.

Hope that claifies things.
TTFN
Lanrak.

Hell Dorado, Infinity, AT43 (surprisingly), and occasionaly Hordes/Warmachine

I find Hell Dorado well priced, Infinity over priced, AT43 prepainted *evils*, and Privateer Press over priced . . . so yeah . . . see part of the extra expense on GW products is because they have brick and mortar shops, staff to pay etc. but also because they have such a large range of miniatures they don't sell as much of each, and so the large amount of molds increases the price of each.

I agree on the management alienating their customer base, but in my view generally the full and part time staff are good fun to talk to, some can be a bit pushy, but generally they are just great people to have a chat with.

So this partially agrees with your last point I suppose, but I just don't feel it as strong as you =]

I'm not an ALL out and out GW lover lol . . . I notice the fact that they have bad points lol

I play both 40k and fantasy. My opinion is that Dakka has a large contingent of 40k players and that is something that flavors these forums. A lot of discussion here centers around how to win at 40k. That's right but you might want to keep that in mind. GW is producing a lot of nice plastic models and kits now. I think the major overhaul 40k received with the 5th edition ruleset was a major step in the right direction. 4th edition was a conservative step built upon improving 3rd edition and had a set of trial rules to help the transition. If we are not primarily focused on how to squeeze the most out of the rules there are a lot of other factors to consider such as the plastic models and kits. My only wish for improvement is faster release of new codices and more work put into playtesting and their FAQs. I was unhappy with the rules for Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines but it looks like GW has learned from their mistakes and Jervis is no longer writing rules. That said I think Jervis did do a splendid job with the Blood Angels PDF codex. I think the split of daemon and Chaos Space Marine was primarily done to increase the volume of sales. Unfortunately Chaos Space Marines appear to have only one viable list for competitive play and lost most of their fluff while Chaos daemons are the polar opposite. I think it's very important to select a designer that is very excited to write the new rules for a race rather than someone who is simply content to just the final product off their desk and go home. IG has the best codex yet for this army with a lot of new ideas. I think the new Space Marine codex was botched... A lot of nice eye candy but so far nothing besides Vulkan Marines in terms of a competitive army.

If we look at Apocalypse and Planet Strike I think you'll agree that GW has released some great new ways to play large games that are both fun and not geared for tournament play. Tournaments are the red hot snizzle but it is only a portion of the market and not all aspects of the hobby should be centered around this aspect of the game. So that said GW has done a lot to expand the game for the larger market and they should be given credit.

My conclusion is that I like GW but don't love them. I have no desire to start playing Warmachine but I have seen some other game systems such as Starship Troopers that have awesome rules and a nice line of miniatures to supplement their games. I think it's always important to take into consideration what other companies are doing and what impact they have on the tabletop gaming market.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

filbert wrote:I think us veteran gamers are in danger of bringing the rose-tinted glasses to this discussion. Of course when I was in my early teens and the sun shone every day and school holidays stretched for eternity, it seemed like GW was the most down to earth, caring / sharing business going. In reality, they were just as money grabbing then as they are now. Miniatures have always cost a bomb, and nowadays is no exception. That doesnt mean I agree with it; just stating the facts here.

That's not correct, the figures were really not so relatively expensive when I started collecting the figures at the age of 11 in 1987. The company was run by people with love of the hobby, people who also sat down and played games their own company didn't own.

The change occured when the company became a PLC, answerable to shareholders with no interest in the hobby and managed at senior level by people who thought people who play with toy soldiers are weird. The hardcore change, when I left the GW fold myself and stopped collecting, was the so-called red age in the later 90s, when at about 21 years old my patience with GW (who had taken to painting everything red to appeal to children) started to actively discourage older players, treating us rudely in the shops (I remember being booted off a table to make way for a demo game for little Timmy and his mum) and drove all their efforts into recruiting the pokemon generation.

It is the cynical and all consuming greed that the company demonstrates so openly these days that angers and alienates me. Take a look at the financial report and the statement at the beginning of that, heralding a price hike for plastic miniatures since they are 'of the same high standard as the metals', the metal figures were hiked in price amidst hokum about 'very expensive tin' and now the plastics will be raise to match them. The company moving it's target demographic to a much younger consumer has paid off, they are far less likely to question or doubt the company.

I just put £500 into obtaining the remaining WW game Vampire the Masquerade books (now out of print) from sellers on amazon, that's 2 months hobby budget, I don't spend this on GW products because I cannot bring myself to do it, I won't be taken for a mug by this company. The profit markup on the models is vast and unjustified, they are in trouble because they are slowly strangling themselves with inflated price. If they priced reasonably, I would buy my one army...then expand on it, then begin another army. There are probably 10 armies I could list that I would happily build if the price was right, my ire at their base greed prohibits this and will result in me building my ork army via ebay and online lowest price retailers then calling it quits.

Nuff said. Well done that man.

I kind of feel the need to kill every staff member and find a new staff that seems to ENJOY the hobby more than money. Expensive models, bad coordination, horrible standards for time limits, etc, etc, etc. Is this what GW wants one of its newest customers to see? I see some great potential in this game. I see an amazing setting, (I first got interested because of the fluff) some incredibly well made and painted models, and a decent ruleset. Games Workshop seems to be paranoid about every possible violation of their IPs, and it's killing them. It's deterring fans, possible endeavors which could interest hundreds (just look at damnatus,) all of their games need every little piece approved by GW, too. Making Warhammer Online was hellish for the designers because it took forever for GW to approve of every tiny little wire-frame. They are drowning themselves slowly, and their company is going down with it.

That said I think Jervis did do a splendid job with the Blood Angels PDF codex.

...really? I thought it was horrid. I mean according to RAW, BA rhinos don't even have fire points or ways to embark/disembark from them. Seems like a major thing to overlook.]

Also MGS, very well said indeed.

Sidstyler wrote:

That said I think Jervis did do a splendid job with the Blood Angels PDF codex.

...really? I thought it was horrid. I mean according to RAW, BA rhinos don't even have fire points or ways to embark/disembark from them. Seems like a major thing to overlook.]

Also MGS, very well said indeed.

I think it assumes you know the rules a little more than the average joe, and can make some assumptions. It was made a bit lazily, yes, but in practice it does capture the blood angels to an extent.

Things I like about GW:

-Easy access to other people to play pick up games. It's rare that I show up wanting to play something and absolutely no one is there.
-The settings and models for both systems are cool and interesting which is a huge draw.
-Production values are high and everything has a slick and well polished feel to it.


Things I don't like:

-Lately I'm really feeling like they see me as a mark to be exploited. $40 box of Greatswords, price hikes with ridiculous excuses (tin prices went up; oh they went down? well we have to increase again just in case they go back up to what they were before then even higher for no reason! Oh and plastics should match that because we like money). I understand that it's a company and the goal is to make money, but there's a point where I'm being gouged and it makes me feel less like a customer and more like a piece of meat they can trick into buying whatever new thing just came out that I have no interest in. Stuff like the new website taking out most hobby tips and extra stuff in favor of "THIS IS COOL BUY IT NOW!!!!!" and White Dwarf being pages of garbage in between advertisements you have to actually pay for cement this feeling.
-Poorly thought out rules. Overall their stuff isn't bad but most army books include a good deal of errors or stuff they didn't think out. Stupid things like "don't play jerks that will exploit rules" is a terrible solution to rules issues. Rather than fix these they let them sit for years until the next book fixes it which brings me to...
-Four+ years between army books with no real stop gaps other than tiny erratas to explain how obsolete rules work (or don't whichever) in new editions? That's crummy support.
-Their two facedness. They charge $25 for books of poorly tested rules and often price models based on how good they are on the table, but suddenly they're just a miniature company when people point out holes or lackluster support of the ruleset.


So basically at this point I'm buying stuff second hand and not playing in tournaments (where strict rules interpretations matter) and I'm enjoying it. I guess you could say I really like the game in terms of just killing a few hours but not in any type of actual tactical sense and hate the kind of mindset behind the management of the company.