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BrookM wrote:The love is gone, I still like them, but I'd rather go to FLGS these days, whom offer discounts, a friendly discussion platform and more honesty when it comes to things. I'm not talking about the blastscape.

I used to love them to death though, but the staff mostly killed that off for me. Especially when the UK staff was transferred out and more Dutch brown nosers were brought in. I remember buying over €300 worth of metal Guard for my first army and I remember Swan throwing in a few BL books and a Macharius blister for free. Or that crazy Scotsman Andrew, who forgot to ring up my mailorder and when I told him he just laughed madly and waved it off, throwing in a blister for my honesty.

As for Forge World, I love their stuff and I will continue buying from them as they've got quite a hoard of exclusives but 'em for their poor quality, customer services and everything.

Well everyones two favoutire people at my LGS got fired They fired him because he wasn't making enough sales but we all know the true reason is because he didn't advertise for the academy as much as they wanted him to 0_o Lastely they put all their sales tactics into academy and AOBR....



EDIT- So basically they care more for new gamers spending big $$ than old gamers spending an average amount of 50's and 100's....




-Orkishly

I miss the articles they used to have online where they didn't try and sell you something every 20 seconds, but where they showed you how to make terrain and bunkers etc McGyver style from half a tea bag and a dead goat.

Now all they seem to have is product placement. I was just looking for articles on planet strike, and how best to play attack/defence roles, and all they have are 2 short pages with a few pictures of (essentially) a model from each army with "these units are good for attack, these units are good for defence - here is a link to the shop, now go buy them... oh, by the way, they are all the really expensive and new models in the army".

The only other articles they seem to have are "how to build the really expensive kit you just bought from us".

*shakes fist*

I like GW, but I don't love them. I love my Wife and Indian food so that is that.

I think that they have made some poor decisions (mainly how they have handled Specialist Games and the WD), but as a company they have greatly improved the quality of their products and have worked towards setting the bar higher. I've always felt that as a hobby company they have worked towards getting better and sometimes that means taking risks. I've enjoyed how they have worked out of weird phases (like the "red" phase and the green base phase). They are working towards creating a more "realistic/grimdark" product that I like.

Any beefs I have with the company are generally forgotten when I remember that they are still creating something for my hobby. My hobby should be at the end of my priority list (as well as the bottom of my worry list).

GW frustrates me to no end.

On one hand, they have a great IP, but these days they spend more effort protecting it rather than utilizing it.

They charge premium prices for mediocre product. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that GW produces premium product... their plastic kits are terribly engineered (and relatively primitive from a model kit standpoint), from non-inclusion of pegs and sockets to aid construction, to poorly realized instructions. The modern metal range relies too much on adding bling to add character.

The ruleset while streamlined, suffers from a lack of depth to gameplay.

GW has been alienating its veteran base for years - and is now trying to be everything to all its customers and ends up coming short in all aspects. The times have changed, but GW stays the same.

In my ideal world, V6 will include:

1. Starter Kit with "core rules" - aimed at kids and high speed games.
1a. Core Rulebook with Black Tome (a-la Ravening Hordes): (Core rules, movement, shooting, assault, terrain, basic vehicle rules and KP missions. Reformats basic stats for all units to keep in line with the new core rules)
1b. Advanced Rulebook with additional rules and missions - aimed at veterans and tactical games. To include objective missions, optional deployment rules, varying movement rules, advanced vehicle rules etc. Optional large scale rules, skirmish scale rules and campaign rules etc.)
1c. Codecies to include fluff, relisting of the basic stats, inclusion of additional stats to play with the Advanced Rules. Hobby sections of codecies need to be improved to contain army showcases and advanced modelling techniques. Playtest PDFs should be made available on the website for armies without a codex to provide base statistics (such as movement rates or weapon statistics) needed in addition to core stats from the Black Tome.

2. Consolidation of the entire line. All add on squad boxes should be axed and reformatted into conversion packs and the basic kits. Conversion kits should not be limited to plastic and should also include metal, resin parts and possibly photo-etch. Universal things to add would be head packs, and wepaon packs. If you are going to charge a premium price, the products had better be premium.

This will never happen of course...

It always hurts more when somebody screws up something you love.

I dislike their inconsistency with codex upgrades, some models, their pricing, some codex discrepancies, and their immense greed. So I said BURN GW. I was only being slightly facetious, too. GW is the reason I tend to buy models secondhand whenever I can, and not from GW itself.

Rico.

SilverMK2 wrote:I miss the articles they used to have online where they didn't try and sell you something every 20 seconds, but where they showed you how to make terrain and bunkers etc McGyver style from half a tea bag and a dead goat.

WIN!
It is so unfortunate, they really can't meet anyone's wishes. The day they start charging membership to their website is the day I quit 40k. I have a sad feeling it is coming up soon, by 2010 at the latest. Not that their site has anything worthwwhile on it anyway.

I voted OK. While I despise them for what they have done to 40k, they still put out a decent product more often than not.

Ask me this 10 years ago, and I would have been singing their praises.

Nightwatch wrote:Not that their site has anything worthwwhile on it anyway.

QFT.

I miss the old site that had all the modelling tips and such, like greenstuff tutorials and a host of other useful things. GW is sort of like Jagex - sorry for the RuneScape reference - in that they took something quite successful (and dare I say profitable) and took it in a downward spiral. I watched Jagex disregard the veterans who have been with the game for quite some time and focus on making the newer players happy - thus shafting said veterans (who, it must be said, paid money for an extended period of time). That's why I quit RS (thank goodness) and I moved on to games that were better in all respects.

GW is the same, perhaps on a smaller scale, or perhaps GW is earlier in the process of screwing over their product line. Except I don't know if I will move on to another tabletop game if GW crosses the proverbial line. I like the models, and keep buying the models (albeit from different sources), yet have feelings of bitterness toward GW. Weird, eh?

The whole situation is disappointing and degrading, to say the least.

Rico.

Remember Black Goblin?

No, I don't. Should I? I'm probably too young. My apologies. Backing out of the thread, as of now.

It was a site Feature on GW's website for a year or two. Basically it was a weekly web-zine that had army features, conversion tips, etc... You could also call it a mini-WD. I read it the first several months that they published it and I was pretty happy with it. I think they stopped doing it when they reorganized the website.

I mention it because I felt it was the last time between the WD and GWs site that they made a motion to give it back to the players and give them some "outside the box" gaming ideas.

But then again maybe they saw that it was an uphill battle and gave up. I can get more info in one hour on Dakka than I could from a monthly WD purchase, or waiting for extra info in the Black Goblin.

Love/hate for me.

Love the fact that I can get a pick up game nearly any store that I drop into with a GW army. Love the corporate support for the gaming scene.

Hate the business practices, particularly the wallet rape "because we can" mentality. It can't last forever and eventually they will price themselves right out of business.

Here's what I think:

Games Workshop is a business that provides me entertainment. Entertainment I still enjoy, even after 13+ years. I used to work for GW for 3 years, and left in good faith. GW provided me the best job I've had, and I was nothing but respected, and valued as the part-time redshirt I was. If it weren't for GW I'd have half the friends I do today. They're also a business that doesn't eat children, beat their employees, or steal from their customers. We all choose to play their games, and spend the money we do on them as well. The notion that they're cheating us out of money is crazy. I don't know about you, but GW never came to my door and shook me down for cash, and only left me an Ironclad dreadnought, I exchanged my cash for it because I derive an equal amount of satisfaction for what I pay.

That being said, they're not above criticism, and no one (not the guv'ment, not your parents, not your dog) are above reasonable criticism. I just find that most of what people have to say ill about Games Workshop is whining and whinging that I really can't be bothered with, and am just glad GW doesn't survive on lack of crying.

Hi all.
GW PLC sell product for as much as they can get away with, by primarily targeting customers that are vunerable to low level marketing.
'Selling toy soldiers to kiddies.'

It is possible to get alternative products to GWs , at a fraction of the cost or with much better quality as reguards to rules and gameplay.
Rather than try to compete by offering better value for money, GW just get as much money as they can before thier target demoghrapic wise up and leave.

Not a buisness model that promotes long term growth or good will.

TTFN
Lanrak.

I change mine to hatred right now. I just went and bought black reach again, and it cost me 101$. I think it only cost me 85 last time, and it took like half an hour for them to accept my debit card. Grrr... for more info on what I'm gonna do with black reach... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249119.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yes, it took me FOREVER to get the damn thing, plus the redshirt ignored me for like 20 minutes as I'm trying to let him know I'd like to buy something (and contribute to HIS comission for the day) and then he tries to sell me plastic glue too.
GAHH!

Like em, love all the new kits this year, generally happy with 5th ed codices.

Not love because there are always glaring issues,

but nobody's perfect right?

Nightwatch wrote:I change mine to hatred right now. I just went and bought black reach again, and it cost me 101$. I think it only cost me 85 last time, and it took like half an hour for them to accept my debit card. Grrr... for more info on what I'm gonna do with black reach... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249119.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yes, it took me FOREVER to get the damn thing, plus the redshirt ignored me for like 20 minutes as I'm trying to let him know I'd like to buy something (and contribute to HIS comission for the day) and then he tries to sell me plastic glue too.
GAHH!

GW staff don't work on commission...

Don't like 'em. Why?... Rip off pricing for medium quality items. Sure this has all been said above but I'd like to add my two-penneth worth!

Years ago WD used to have interesting articles... no wait that's been said as well. Just put me down as "miffed with the price"

yeah, they are OK. the washes are nice.

I once worked for a small manufacturing company in southern California that made candles. They had a nice website, a couple boutiques in the LA area, and the company was owned by a former model and TV actress. They employed 75-100 people, and as far as I could tell, the company did pretty well. One day, the owner rolls up in a brand new Mercedes Benz. I figure, "hey, good for her." A week later, she calls a meeting and announes that she's sold her little company to a much larger company: one that has dozens of mall stores and all sorts of other foo-foo products that they manufacture and sell. She goes on to tell us how this will be great for us. We'll have plenty of opportunities for promotion in the new, larger company, and she's going to stay on as a "creative advisor" and get back to doing what she really loves, designing candles. Within the first few weeks of the formal takeover, the GM and several other managers were sacked and a high-priced management consultant is brought in to run the day-to-day. This guy used to work for Starbuck's and was being flown in from his home in Vancouver every Monday and Friday. Within six months, the plant is closed. They never wanted another candle plant, they wanted the product name and nothing else. I never found out what happened to the former owner turned "creative advisor," as I left before the plant shutdown. I'm sure she still makes candles and is very thankful for the millions she probably made on the sale.

As with most companies that go public, GW has slowly lost it's heart and soul over the years. I've never understood what makes someone want to take their dream--whether it's making candles or making cool miniatures games--and turn it from a passion into a product.

It's sort of amusing that 60% of the people polled here are falling into the GW is so-so,to burn them to the ground category,yet it's business as usual for GW...I wonder if anyone on GWs board of directors ever browses sites like this one,I doubt it would change much if they did.
Anyway,OT,I voted they suck,my reasons have already been voiced by others here many times.
I'm actually atempting to build my Traitor Guard through E-bay and swaps here as well as purchases from Pig Iron,with as few GW purchases as possiable,and once I'm satisfied with them,I plan to drasticly limit any/all GW purchases.

FITZZ wrote:I wonder if anyone on GWs board of directors ever browses sites like this one

Of course not. They, like most of the people in the world, have worked out that the internet is nothing but a fad inhabited by fringe groups like Tournament and Veteran Gamers. Kids will give up the internet soon enough just like they gave up Tamagotchis and the Spice Girls.

Tamagotchis

Must kill...

keezus wrote:GW frustrates me to no end.

On one hand, they have a great IP, but these days they spend more effort protecting it rather than utilizing it.

They charge premium prices for mediocre product. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that GW produces premium product... their plastic kits are terribly engineered (and relatively primitive from a model kit standpoint), from non-inclusion of pegs and sockets to aid construction, to poorly realized instructions. The modern metal range relies too much on adding bling to add character.

The ruleset while streamlined, suffers from a lack of depth to gameplay.

GW has been alienating its veteran base for years - and is now trying to be everything to all its customers and ends up coming short in all aspects. The times have changed, but GW stays the same.

In my ideal world, V6 will include:

1. Starter Kit with "core rules" - aimed at kids and high speed games.
1a. Core Rulebook with Black Tome (a-la Ravening Hordes): (Core rules, movement, shooting, assault, terrain, basic vehicle rules and KP missions. Reformats basic stats for all units to keep in line with the new core rules)
1b. Advanced Rulebook with additional rules and missions - aimed at veterans and tactical games. To include objective missions, optional deployment rules, varying movement rules, advanced vehicle rules etc. Optional large scale rules, skirmish scale rules and campaign rules etc.)
1c. Codecies to include fluff, relisting of the basic stats, inclusion of additional stats to play with the Advanced Rules. Hobby sections of codecies need to be improved to contain army showcases and advanced modelling techniques. Playtest PDFs should be made available on the website for armies without a codex to provide base statistics (such as movement rates or weapon statistics) needed in addition to core stats from the Black Tome.

2. Consolidation of the entire line. All add on squad boxes should be axed and reformatted into conversion packs and the basic kits. Conversion kits should not be limited to plastic and should also include metal, resin parts and possibly photo-etch. Universal things to add would be head packs, and wepaon packs. If you are going to charge a premium price, the products had better be premium.

This will never happen of course...

It always hurts more when somebody screws up something you love.

So basically you just want GW to bring out a new rule set that is for small children so that you don't have to worry about said children taking up valuable 40K time . . . Furthermore with the way you set it out if you were to buy the starter set you wouldn't get the full rules, and therefore wouldn't be making as big a saving when buying the starter set. The whole point is that for £20 more than a rulebook you can get 2 armies, templates, dice, scenery (in LOTR). It's the full package for a cheaper price.

Add on boxes . . . now that is a genius idea, but is expensive to do in plastic, meaning you're left with metal (weight added to the model in bad places?), or resin (annoying when the moulds don't work properly . . . as they usually do . . . warping . . .) So yeah a great idea, but only feasbaly possible by FW.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
GW PLC sell product for as much as they can get away with, by primarily targeting customers that are vunerable to low level marketing.
'Selling toy soldiers to kiddies.'

It is possible to get alternative products to GWs , at a fraction of the cost or with much better quality as reguards to rules and gameplay.
Rather than try to compete by offering better value for money, GW just get as much money as they can before thier target demoghrapic wise up and leave.

Not a buisness model that promotes long term growth or good will.

TTFN
Lanrak.

GW does more than just "sell toy soldiers to kiddies" as you put it, they also offer advice and tips on the whole hobby. When you're paying the 'outrageous' prices you're not just paying for the product, you're also paying for the service. The overheads of running an actual store means that the models have to cost more than online stores.

Nightwatch wrote:I change mine to hatred right now. I just went and bought black reach again, and it cost me 101$. I think it only cost me 85 last time, and it took like half an hour for them to accept my debit card. Grrr... for more info on what I'm gonna do with black reach... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249119.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yes, it took me FOREVER to get the damn thing, plus the redshirt ignored me for like 20 minutes as I'm trying to let him know I'd like to buy something (and contribute to HIS comission for the day) and then he tries to sell me plastic glue too.
GAHH!

So yes there has been a price rise since you last bought it . . . shocking! These things happen. Also the card machines aren't exactly the most reliable things in the world, they are quite frustrating sometimes, waiting ages for the machine to verify the pin and process the request. GW staff do not work on commission, they have targets to meet obviously, but this doesn't affect the pay. Finally the glue . . . what's worse than buying some models and getting home to realise you don't have the right stuff to make your models? So the staff are only trying to help you out . . . the amount of people I have asked whether they need anything else, or pointed out that they need super glue for that is a lot . . . But also the amount of people that have been thankful for my help is also a lot.


FINALLY . . . White Dwarf . . . ok yes it does a good job of advertising products, but it also has hobby tips in there, new rules and apocalypse formations. There was the new Blood Angel codex in there . . . And ok so there isn't as many guidance articles on the website anymore . . . but all you need to do is to pop into you local GW store and ask a member of staff for help and they will help you with your request. Part of the job of a member of staff for GW is to help out with hobby requests, give painting lessons, give help with green stuff etc. It's all there, just that most people don;t think to ask for the help, they would much rather have a step-by-step guide on a website . . . in my personal experience it is better to have someone show you how to do something than read how to do it. Then you can ask questions, and they can see you do it and give you further advice. =]

I voted like btw . . . if you hadn't already guessed that I view GW positively =p

WALL O' TEXTAROO!!!

Yeah I kinda put all the posts I would have made had I been here into one MASSIVE post . . . then previewed it and realised how much I had typed . . . I think I have chaff-itis =p

Oshava wins the thread for being the only person in recent history to defend White Dwarf.

Yeah well it's my job to have a positive outlook on all things GW =p

If you let doubt creep into your view of a product then how are you supposed to be able to sell that product to someone else? There is a couple of downsides to this . . . 1- it doesn't make you many friends =p, and 2- it makes you want to buy more =[ lol

Now only if he could have done it without tripling the length of his post with extraneous quotes.

Yeah, sadly I'm new to the forum and haven't worked out the I can delete parts of quotes so that I only get the bit I need =p