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Oshova:

It's easy, don't hit the "Quote" button. Just hit the "Reply" button and address whoever you're replying to, and write your piece.

Forum Rules wrote:5. Please be intelligible. We strongly encourage proper punctuation, spelling, grammar and composition, but if we can't understand you, we'll ignore you. Before you post, hit the Preview button and double-check what you've written before posting it, and remember that you can always go back and edit your posts to fix any problems. I usually don't catch my mistakes until after I've posted, so you'll see a lot of "This post was edited 2 times" in small letters at the bottom of my posts.

Ah that is a good idea =] Thanks, I will keep that in mind next time I go off on one =]

Alternatively, just delete the part of the post you don't want to quote, and leave the two "quote" tags around the part you want to keep.

I like this Oshova and his good points.

YAY! *head swells like a hot air balloon*

It's nice to be appreciated, to be honest most of the regulars in my store enjoy a nice conversation about how I like the new awesome thingy or whatsit. It's the diversity of views on things that allow for great nerdy conversations, and other such great moments that make me feel elitist and special =p but yeah it's nice to be able to discuss views on new and upcoming products =]

Love GW models/terrain and games. Hate the company.

Being a GW gamer is like purposely hanging out with a bully who likes to torment you. You give him your lunch money and then he kicks you in the nads...

Except that instead of sore nuts, you have the models, terrain, and games that you claim to enjoy...

GW made a lot of nice product that I bought, but their new stuff is too overpriced. Maybe if their prices get back to reality, I'll reconsider them.

I feel as if GW change their rulebooks/codex's to gain money, not to fix broken rules. I still buy the new stuff though....

Nurglitch wrote:Except that instead of sore nuts, you have the models, terrain, and games that you claim to enjoy...

...At the cost of your lunch money... And, this bully still manages to find a way to kick you in the nuts so you're a soprano for a week AND you're out lunch money AND you get the models, terrain and games. You do the math.

Rico.

@JohnHwanggDD

I understand the reasoning that goes into the pricing of the products, and only 1/3 of the price of the products is profit for GW, which is actually very reasonable when you think of it that way . . .

@Ieatsquigs

The rules are redone every so often to keep the game new and fresh, to increase the back story, and to fix broken rules. Without updates the rules would become old and out of date, new and interesting rules (such as the reintroduction of true LoS) keep people interested in the hobby, and ensure that GW stays in business to give you the cool miniatures =]

Oshova wrote:@JohnHwanggDD

I understand the reasoning that goes into the pricing of the products, and only 1/3 of the price of the products is profit for GW, which is actually very reasonable when you think of it that way . . .

@Ieatsquigs

The rules are redone every so often to keep the game new and fresh, to increase the back story, and to fix broken rules. Without updates the rules would become old and out of date, new and interesting rules (such as the reintroduction of true LoS) keep people interested in the hobby, and ensure that GW stays in business to give you the cool miniatures =]

little toy men at the dollar store cost 1$ for about 100. Yes I know you must be thinking that there's a difference in detail but that actually just saves them plastic by trimming eye's, elbows, joints etc. and also how much more do you think it costs them to add the detail?

Rico:

We're talking about a commercial transaction with a merchant, right? Because unless Jervis Johnson kicks down your down and holds a gun to your head until you give him the money that would have otherwise fed your family, your analogy sucks. I mean seriously, how do you compare someone selling a relatively cheap luxury good to violent theft? I'd recommend toning down on the hyperbole.

JohnHwangDD:

I agree. I like GW, but I won't pay full price for their products so long as I can get a hefty discount elsewhere. I can't blame the company for selling above what I'm willing to pay for their product, since it's not a necessity. I already own several armies, and there are discounters to provide the product that I want. Heck, given that I don't pay full price when I actually buy something, and I've gotten so much from them for free (Specialist Games) I'm actually pretty happy with GW. That they survive without my regular monetary support is icing on the cake. Maybe it's because I've had the opportunity to sit down and sink a pint with Jervis Johnson, but I like the guy, like his design philosophy, enjoy his work, and hope the best for him. Maybe GW will give him the opportunity to produce a game I'll pay retail for someday.

OK where to start . . . different molds are used, different plastics, different grades of those plastics, different levels of quality, different overheads . . .

Basically GW supplies you with high quality plastic miniatures that require more expensive molds than the afore mentioned Dollar Store soldiers. GW has higher overheads as they have to pay for the staff, the rent, the utility bills etc, whereas the Dollar Store soldiers will be made on the cheap in some sweat shop where the workers are payed $1 a week to work there. GW offers you support on how to improve your little plastic soldier or alien through the use of modeling and painting. Once you have bought the Dollar Store soldiers that's it, the company has your money and doesn't care about you any more. GW gives you rules to play with your little toy soldiers and aliens now painted and modeled to look just how you want it. Again the Dollar Store soldiers are still green, still look static, and get kinda boring after a few days . . . So I ask you, which is better?

@Nurglitch

Nice points there, and I support your views . . . but obviously I also believe that GW offers their products at a reasonable price for the situation in which they are sold, and the after sale support given.

The cost of the company stores is a pretty significant overhead cost for GW, if you read their financial statements, significantly moreso than what they put into that part of their marketing department they call the Studio, or even their manufacturing overheads.

OK where to start . . . different molds are used, different plastics, different grades of those plastics, different levels of quality, different overheads . . .

Basically GW supplies you with high quality plastic miniatures that require more expensive molds than the afore mentioned Dollar Store soldiers. GW has higher overheads as they have to pay for the staff, the rent, the utility bills etc, whereas the Dollar Store soldiers will be made on the cheap in some sweat shop where the workers are payed $1 a week to work there. GW offers you support on how to improve your little plastic soldier or alien through the use of modeling and painting. Once you have bought the Dollar Store soldiers that's it, the company has your money and doesn't care about you any more. GW gives you rules to play with your little toy soldiers and aliens now painted and modeled to look just how you want it. Again the Dollar Store soldiers are still green, still look static, and get kinda boring after a few days . . . So I ask you, which is better?






I'm not saying they cost anywhere near the same but do you REALLY think that it costs them 2/3's the price of a pack of terminators to make,package, sell etc them? Tonning the price down by a bit wouldn't hurt them compared to how many people would buy more things if they cost a bit less.



EDIT- I missread the quoted statement sorry.


-Orkishly

I voted 'like' and 'they're okay' i have a problem with the price of their minis, and their lack of coordination. they're horrible about keeping codex's up to date, horrible about releasing physical manifestations of wargear, and VERY bad about keeping their prized posessions, the space marines, on the top of their priorities, next is the imperium. I WANT MORE XENOS!!! (ironically, i don't play xenos, i just don't want to play anymore damn space marines, they've got no personality!!) I like their minis, especially forgeworlds, and i like the game. balance can be off, but that's always going to be a problem when you have this many races. there needs to be more supplemental codecies, and all of them need to be in PDF format. make ones for the eldar, tau, and CSM.

Lastly, better management. i think we'd find they would find much in common before the duke nukem team (thank god that died)

They are made out of plastic, and you only need to invest so much to start any product line. After everything is set up and rolling it essentially pays for itself.

Perhaps I am naive, I really don't care, GW's stuff is heading in a direction that I simply won't buy. Pretty nice minis, and not so great prices.

Well around 1/3 of the price includes the molding cost, the price of plastic etc, the next 1/3 is to cover overheads costs, and the final 1/3 is profit. When you think about how much injection moulds cost etc it does actually make sense.

It costs them something like 1/2 the price of a pack of Terminators to maintain the network of company owned stores. Don't take my word for it though, as you can check their financial statements for yourself on their corporate website.

I don't think toning down their prices will encourage people to buy more. The product has too many of its own caps (points, game-size, patience in painting, etc), and people that will buy more than three Dreadnoughts, for example, will do so regardless of whether they're $40.00 or $50.00. Products like Apocalypse and Planet Strike are about stoking demand, giving people incentive to buy more, rather than taking the risk that a people will plow their savings back into more GW products.

I hear rumors on both sides.

Logic tells me that GW is pretty comfortably resting on the long end of the stick in this situation.

Who's this Logic fella, and how do I subscribe to his newsletter?

Nurglitch wrote:Who's this Logic fella, and how do I subscribe to his newsletter?

Via psychic link... pretty new technology though, the future of the Intrawebz!!!

Logic is for the weak minded =p

Well, it seems like (so far) a bit more than half the people feel neutral about GW but that of the remainder more a pleased with them then not. I think that if we're all honest with ourselves, we'd find that GW obviously isn't so bad. I think it was beef that tried to separate liking GW from liking its products. That may be meaningful in its own way but the truth is that by supporting the products you're supporting the company. And that's true even if you don't buy directly from them.

I'll just reiterate what I said before because I think it still captures the tone of a lot of the complaints here: I'd love GW if they asked me personally what I wanted them to make and then gave me all of that stuff for free. But, again, that would just result in a thread about how much wargamers hate me.

Manchu wrote:Well, it seems like (so far) a bit more than half the people feel neutral about GW but that of the remainder more a pleased with them then not. I think that if we're all honest with ourselves, we'd find that GW obviously isn't so bad. I think it was beef that tried to separate liking GW from liking its products. That may be meaningful in its own way but the truth is that by supporting the products you're supporting the company. And that's true even if you don't buy directly from them.

I'll just reiterate what I said before because I think it still captures the tone of a lot of the complaints here: I'd love GW if they asked me personally what I wanted them to make and then gave me all of that stuff for free. But, again, that would just result in a thread about how much wargamers hate me.

QFT (about the second part mostly)

Games Workshop is a corporation, not a person. I can't think of anything unethical they do, besides maybe some of their shadier legal weight-throwing, so I don't have much of a reason to dislike them on that level.

I like their product; I'll buy it if I think it's worth the price. If I think it's not worth the price, I won't. In that sense, whether or not I "like GW" isn't really the issue, it's whether or not I like the product, and the support and service given to that product.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I like their product; I'll buy it if I think it's worth the price. If I think it's not worth the price, I won't. In that sense, whether or not I "like GW" isn't really the issue, it's whether or not I like the product, and the support and service given to that product.

I think this is what it really comes down to. And, in that same vein, Nurglitch is totally correct to point out the absurdity of the metaphor of GW being a bully stealing your money.

@Manchu
Everyone would love GW to do what they wanted . . . personally I want the new Dark Eldar models and Codex released tomorrow . . . but generally they do things that please the majority and move the hobby and the company in a positive directions.

@Orkeosaurus

I agree that GW can be a bit harsh with the book of law, I know quite a few people who have been stung by that. Also I agree that GW offers a good service to go with it's products, and also the shops offer a nice community for gamers to go and meet new people, and learn new things about the hobby.

Oshova wrote:The rules are redone every so often to keep the game new and fresh, to increase the back story, and to fix broken rules.

Ok stop right there. You've crossed a Dakka-line there with that last part of your statement.

I'm fine with the way that rules are changed to stimulate sales - that's their way of doing business and it's a way of keeping the game fresh, as you say - no issues there. But change them to fix broken rules? Are you mad?

Every rulebook GW puts out is filled with vague ambiguities, broken units (both good and bad), units that suck, units that are too good, things that don't work as intended, things that work despite their intent, and so on. Their rules are not written with the aim of fixing things, if they were, things would be fixed already.

You're a card-carrying GW employee who so far has managed to spout the usual GW-can-do-no-wrong stuff that the people here are sick of hearing. They can do wrong. Every day they make new mistakes (some unavoidable, and they cannot be blamed for those), but please, take off the GW-issued rose-tinted glasses they gave you when you signed up and take a quick look at the reality of the situation. Not all is well with GW, they have major issues with their rules and their business practices - they're not awful of 'mean', and I very much doubt their their actions are fueld or directed by any sort of malice on their part - but don't act like they're blameless and that they're doing everything they can to make things better.

They're not.

They're doing everything they can to make money in the short term.