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Alright... Let's see if I can do this without swearing and flaming...

The Swedes have populated the entire area of Sweden since the bloody viking age, we've got settlements up there that are from the 11th century. The Lapis (Yes in swedish they're called 'Samer' but I won't use that word for the same reason I don't call eskimoes for inuites) came to Sweden much, much later, and yes some parts in the uttermost north weren't populated simply because the conditions were too harsh at the time. Jokkmokk is up there, but the Lapis' territory streatches down to Dalälven, they've got 30-40% of the Swedish land for themselves by law, and they are an immigrant minority, and a very whiny such.

Now I do not want to listen to some german 'I-know-it-all-I've-been-abused' trying to make an argument about a subject in which he clearly has no ****ing knowledge of whatsoever, get back on the bloody topic!

Discussion about Sweden is off-topic and probably is not going to end up good. My own personal experience is much different from Riffzor's; In our USA, we can barely stand tax increases in anything, as any tax increases are "On the road to Communism". In my home state of Colorado, our schools are barely funded, simply because no one is willing to pay taxes for something that doesn't benefit them immediately (And even then, I keep spotting potholes). But does that mean our system doesn't have advantages? No. It's an issue with more than one side, and one suited to a topic where both sides can be explained fully.

Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.

Kinda like a milder version of the Eversor Assassins, except without the ridiculously awesome skull heads.

4M2A wrote:I don't know if it's because people relate to humans but compared to the imperium Tau are saints. How can you see tham as equally evil to a group that want to exterminate everything else.

Just like the Tau, the Imperium is not a standardized thing. Look at "For the Emperor;" Ciaphas Cain, Kirsten, and Inquisitor Veil were all willing to fraternize with xenos if it meant a better result for everyone. The Tau showed characteristics just like the humans; they were intolerant, overreacted, blamed everything on the other side, etc. Hell, at one point, they turned an internal issue involving an insurgency into a fullscale war.

The Tau are not saintly, they are not demonic. They're just... Different, I guess. Their system has both benefits and problems, just like the Imperium's (Exterminatus, religious fanaticism, the sacrifice of bajillions of guardsmen, etc.). in the case of the Tau, the problems are a lack of power, a general ignorance about the warp's dangers, species based caste systems, and mind control.

Melissia wrote:

Wyvern wrote:Again, good point. But the 4 main casts are seen as equal, I believe.

Yes they are all equal.

They are all slaves to the Ethereal Caste

Not so much slaves to the Ehtereal Caste as to doctrine with a bit of egging on by phermones. You've read "For the Emperor," yes? The Tau in that book are devoted even when there is no mention of an Ethereal, and the humans (Who have problably never even met an Ethereal) share similar fanaticism.

Also, for comparison: If you are a human and not a member of the Imperium, you join them or die. If you are a human and not a member of the Tau? You join them or die.

Kroothawk wrote:Before the ethereals arrived, the Tau races were busy in a free and happy bloodshed among themselves. The ethereals stopped this constitutional right to mass murder your fellow citizens and brought peace. How utterly cruel! How Hitleresque! How oppressive! Who will free the Tau races to have a happy massacre again?

That's incredibly douchey of you.

If you're trying to say Tau are bloodthirsty bastards content with killing themselves and everyone else, unless they are being mind-controlled by pheremones, that doesn't exactly shed a good light on them. Mind you, I Think they still are, they just kill or enslave other people now instead, so eh.

Melissia wrote:That's incredibly douchey of you.

If you're trying to say Tau are bloodthirsty bastards content with killing themselves and everyone else, unless they are being mind-controlled by pheremones, that doesn't exactly shed a good light on them. Mind you, I Think they still are, they just kill or enslave other people now instead, so eh.

Er, have you read Tau fluff? They typically try to use diplomacy and economic connections first before going to full out war, as such things are easier. That's why they have the Water caste. That's not saying that the Tau won't kill or enslave, but they certainly don't do it anymore to outsiders than the Imperium of Man does.

Hell, the Imperium of Man has used sterilization on a planet-wide scale and exterminatus is not exactly unheard of. That doesn't mean the Imperium of Man is inherently worse than the Tau.

.. which was sort of my point, yes? That they do slaughter and kill en masse. Everyone in 40k does.

For that matter, with your argument... the Tau tend to be more subversive than the Imperium, which from many standpoints is actually WORSE. After all, they're not looking to destroy your lives, but your culture, your identity, and so on... certainly that's the Imperial viewpoint on such tactics, and not one unheard of in even the modern world (read any anti-globalization rant).

Melissia wrote:.. which was sort of my point, yes?

The Tau tend to be more subversive than the Imperium, which from many standpoints is actually WORSE. After all, they're not looking to destroy your lives, but your culture, your identity, and so on...

So they're like the industrialized world of today? EDIT: Whoops, typed this before you edited your post. Yeah, you could say the Tau are the ultimate globalizing force in the 40k universe. Odd how aliens are more human in that way than us humans are.

And yeah, Tau are more subversive than the Imperium, but they also have a far lower body count for their size. Apples and oranges. Well, rotten apples and oranges.

Man I stop reading after someone said the Tau were neo nazis. Isn't that a rule of the internet, if you compare anything to Nazis or Hitler you auto lose?

Necroman wrote:Er, have you read Tau fluff? They typically try to use diplomacy and economic connections first before going to full out war, as such things are easier. That's why they have the Water caste. That's not saying that the Tau won't kill or enslave, but they certainly don't do it anymore to outsiders than the Imperium of Man does.

Well, she doesn't know what the Mont'au was.
BTW, please give me at least one example of Tau enslaving others and sterializing others in official background texts.
I only know that the designers say that they don't. But that doesn't seem to count.

Kroothawk wrote:BTW, please give me at least one example of Tau enslaving others and sterializing others in official background texts.
I only know that the designers say that they don't. But that doesn't seem to count.

Enslavement: They gave the Vespid the helms that are probably mind control devices of a sort; that's mental enslavement. The Ethereals have some sort of mind control through phermones, although it is dubious that the phermones are the main cause of Tau devotion; instead, it seems to be an almost religious doctrine.

Sterilization: I got nothin'.

Kroothawk wrote:Are you talking about the 100.000s of prisoners of war, that were forced to slave labour in Germany?
Are you talking about the jews in the concentration camps that were forced to dig the graves for their fellow prisoners?
Are you deliberately being offensive or are you just uninformed?

1)Maybe I was talking about the Black Germans and other germans of non-aryan(Dark Hair & Dark Eyes) ancestry that happily contributed to an empire whose end goal was to breed out their genetic traits. Maybe I was Talking about the Vichy french who cooperated with a conqueror far more than what was expected or proper. The Vichy weren't Slaves.
2)No, you seem to be doing enough talking about them for the whole thread. We were having an adult conversation about touchy concepts set in the abstract as a means to increase understandting, without flaming the thread or drawing political trolls. Good work Geppetto, nice way to bring emotion in.
3)Are you deliberately trying to be offended and self-superior? Emotion clouds the issue and prevents understanding. The current PC knee jerk over-reaction over anything to do with the Nazi's and Hitler along with revisionist rewriting history is preventing people from being taught the leqitimate warning signs of when this type of system is gaining support. Why aren't you offended by that?

Kroothawk wrote:Have you ever thought about the fact that there were no communist states in 1840?
Have you ever thought that there were no fascist states in 1921?
Have you ever thought that the existence of states run by that ideology might be a good reason to update these definitions?

1)Have you taken time to think that we were discussing the base philosophies and how they are different from current preceptions? No, you were to busy finding a way to be offended. Marx had proposed his concept by 1840. Also, are you aware that to date there have been no communists states, only socialist ones masquerading as communist states in transition.
2)Did you know that Mussolinni, the founder of Fascism, was elected to prime minister in 1922 and that his concept of Fascism already existed? If we weny by your thought process, Nazi-ism would not have existed untill Hitler was elected Chancellor. Really, think about it.
3)Did you ever think that there is a difference between upating to include new information and rewriting the base definition. By the Current definition and what you propose, there could be a group that upholds every ideal of fascism, but because there was no clear leader they would not be able to be classified as fascists. This should cause you and everyone else whom does not wish to see such arise again grave concern.

Kroothawk wrote:To me (and all victims of said regimes) this form of false historical statements is offensive and no fun.

To me and all of the kids and grandkids of survivors of these regimes that have gotten over it, your assumed indignation gives us a headache. We didn't elect you to speak for us and on our behalf and we wish you would stop trying.

Also, if this discussion is so offensive then why are you partiicipating? Instead, if it is such a problem, hit the mod button and try to get the thread locked, if you are frightened for people to see how many governments show evidence of this type of corruption.

@Focusedfire QFT.

Indeed, Focusedfire.

Now I admit I may have been rough and blunt at the start of the thread, more or less directly comparing the Tau with communists/fascists, but those were the ideologies which I found them to resemble the most.

And because I bring the Tau up doesn't mean I'm unaware of the human Empire, I found that to be too obvious to make a statement about.

I'm an aryan through and through, no Nazi's have ever bothered me or my family. Worldwide people tend to believe that we swedes have been out of trouble all along, and generally the swedes don't even know what our goverment in fact have done/are doing to some of us.

It was 20 years ago the wall of Berlin fell, I have no pity for what happened that long ago to you. And when you bring up the Nazi's and make it sound as if they would have opressed you I just sigh at you, I very much doubt you're that old.. But if you are 65 years or older I'll apologize for that.

Racial/Political/Religious insults are thrown at one another all the time, sometimes in terms of words, sometimes in terms of stones. I get insulted/taunted weekly for either of those three reasons, so stop thinking you're anything special.

And it pretty much seems as if focusedfire brought down your every argument, showing that it's in fact you who would have to read up on the history if you are to engage in such discussions. However, this thread was not created for such discussion, it was to discuss the Tau and their system.

Now I suggest we stick on the topic, because atleast I have enjoyed the discussion about the fluff so far, although it's anoying when people keep poping in to whine.

Karon wrote:Tau are pretty much Nazi's, but so is the Imperium (to a lesser extent)

The Ethereals are the Nazi Socialist party, the Aryans if you will. Each one of them is basically a vision of hitler.

They really do follow the belief of "We are better, we know better, and your not as good as us, join us, or die"

Somewhat (to a relatively small number of similarities) fascist yes, Nazis, no. The Nazis were a fascist political party, Nazi-ism (so to speak) is not an actual government type per say

Karon wrote:
But really, stressing over the contradicting web that is 40k fluff, is the equivalent of yelling at a brick wall to stop being so hard.

And once again its just a fun way to ezpress beliefs. what we think wont change it, its just kinda fun

*grins at SwanCo* Exactly.. Nice to see that atleast someone got the meaning of the entire thread, we now have 6 pages in which most is off-topic. xD

@Riffzor-Did you know that the GW name for Tau is not about the asian concept of balance but instead is the Greek Word/Letter for Life.

This might give a good starting place to examine their Culture. The Tau come closest to being a religious government or theocracy. Think about what greece was like at the Dawn of Rational thought.

A nation ruled by a priest class but with rational thinkers and story tellers that threatened the established system. You could pattern one of your Special Characters off of Plato or Socrates.

If that goes to far back then how about the Holy Roman Empire at the beginning of the renaissance. Maybe getting into a Maccheavelli type individual for the Tau'Aun to condemn for his attempt to pervert the concept of the Greater Good.

What gets this character into trouble is that he theorizes that following the precepts of the greater good it would be ok to kill an Aun who was endangering the people with innacurate guidance.


What do ya think? People have been pushing for me to finish writing my Fan-dex so I will Start on my Aun'shi book.

If anything the Tau resemble an ideal version of Plato's Republic far more than a communist or nazi state.

Woah, I'm affraid I'm no good at old philosophers..

Although I like the idea, but perhaps not going as far as to killing Aun'va, but perhaps forcing him into giving a public announcement to admit that his guidance were not for their own good, nor a greater good, but for his own and his Celestial Caste's good.

I'm gonna use that as a starting point in my army's fluff, that actually fits for what I had in mind earlier.

Thank you. =)

please please please make a toga fire warrior squad

Hehe, nah..

1: Tau look terribly wierd, so I want to keep their armour on.

2: I'm really bad at working with Green Stuff, so the Toga's would look really strange.

Since "For the Emperor" of the Ciaphas Cain series was mentioned so often as official fluff, I think one should always look into the Last Chancers series of books. The second book deals with human-tau-relationship and shows a rather dark picture of some aspects of the Tau. However, the author of the series states in his preamble that that was exactly what he was trying to do...

...what I'm trying to say, is that even from GW and Black Library side, there is no real universal consistent information saying "Tau are good", "Tau are bad" or anything inbetween, because even the different writers have different opinions about them.




Basically, the same thing can be said about the Imperium of Man, too. Look at how nice Gaunt is to his Tanith 1st and Only...and then look at Commander Chenkov. Both are parts of the great Imperium of Man, though those examples show veeery different ways of using manpower and leadership. While the Tau Empire is smaller and therefore less diverse, I think this can apply to them, too. Some Ethereals might be egoistic bastards, some might really be in for the Greater Good. I don't think there's a definite need for all Tau or Ethereals to really have one homogenous way of thinking...they are still individuals, even if they live in rigorous, altruistic caste-systems.

Riffzor wrote:Although I like the idea, but perhaps not going as far as to killing Aun'va, but perhaps forcing him into giving a public announcement to admit that his guidance were not for their own good, nor a greater good, but for his own and his Celestial Caste's good.

I'm gonna use that as a starting point in my army's fluff, that actually fits for what I had in mind earlier.

Thank you. =)

No prob, and you are welcome. Just a BTW, I didn't say Kill Aun'va(May have thought it,but didn't say it).I said to kill an Aun. This could be any Aun and as such would be using the concept of the greater good to threaten the etherals hold on the society.

SwanCo wrote:please please please make a toga fire warrior squad

LOL, Think of the movie 300 and then a Fire Warrior Shouting, "This is SA'CEAAAAA!!!!"

Ah.. Good idea. Then I may actually let them kill an Etheral rather than just trying to make him admit his mistakes and false guidance. >=D

Basically the Ethereals rule by the power of Old Spice.

Kilkrazy wrote:Basically the Ethereals rule by the power of Old Spice.

Aun Va is actually Patrick Harris in disguise!

Make an army of only kroot. >.<

If only that was possible. I don't think the Kroot Mercs army is legal anymore.

I don't like the kroot, they look like frog-men wih beaks and tendrils. =P

I just had another idea concerning the pheromone mind control that the ethereals have...


...it might just be a bit like with the Jedi! They are benevolent individuals who CAN - if they wish - make someone jump off a cliff, but usually they choose not to and work with "normal" people without subjugating them. The possibility of pheromone control might not be used on a constant basis by ethereals. It could just be that, if some stubborn Firecaste members don't see what has to be done for the greater good, the ethereals emit a short burst of pheromones that convines the firecaste guys to do what is necessary without the need for bloodshed or other, more brutal ways of getting one's way.

This is, of course, a very "nice" look on ethereals. It could be very different, but I thought I'd try and add a nice perspective on the nazi communist dictator fishheads.

Shatter.proof wrote:Man I stop reading after someone said the Tau were neo nazis. Isn't that a rule of the internet, if you compare anything to Nazis or Hitler you auto lose?

Godwin's Law!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Godwin's Law!

Godwin's Law is just an internet meme, but if you want to let it dectate your participation in conversations then thats your business but you might want to read what Mike Godwin has to say about his creation in the history section of this Wiki(I know, will provide other sources if needed) link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law


I am not picking on you but on the irony of how this meme is used