Can't get over the Tau Fluff... >.<

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**Retribution**

focusedfire wrote:
Retribution wrote:The Tau aren't space Commies or space Nazi's, please go look into what those ideologies actually stand for

I have, I even looked into them before the current revisionist histories and definitions diluted and obscured their meanings.

(This is the older 1921 version)
Fascism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

(The newer version)
Fascism:A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Do you note the subtle shift of emphasis from attempting to scientifically define the characteristics to a judgemental statement. The first definition allows or the individual to recognize Fascist traits without an inexorable connection to dictatorship, while the second emphatically states that this systems primary trait is a dictatorial leader.

(The older one from aroun 1840)
communism : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed.

(The newer revised version)
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Communism

This one the revisions are much easier to see but what is funny is that the initial concept of a classless scociety is missing from both.

I didn't post the Leninist defintions because they focus on only one type of communism rather than on the base concept.

Hmm, I've read the communist manifesto (Marx is a horrible writer) and I found the elimination of classes to be one of the pillars of communism, and now it's not even recognized

**4M2A**

I really think this sterilisation issue has been covered to death. Why do people keep bringing it up when it isn't official, and doesn't really make sense either as Focusedfire pointed out. Hypothetically if they did sterilise they would still be much better than the imperium who just shoot you. The Tau are very much based on logic. They are unlikely to do something like this without a very good reason.

I think the control that ethereals have is a lot more subtle than it sometimes suggests. It does say they can give an order and other Tau have to follow it but I doubt thats used very often. I see it as more likely the pheremones are used to improve cooperation between Tau. Otherwise all the Tau would be very similar ( the opposite of the idea of adpating that is a key to there philosophy ) and Farsight would never have broken off.

Also where are you getting the idea that Tau view themselves as superior. It specifically says (in the codex I believe) that Tau commanders Value Vespidss very highly as they complement the Tau style.

**Retribution**

Isn't Dawn of War the only place where sterilization has been mentioned?

**agnosto**

Retribution wrote:Isn't Dawn of War the only place where sterilization has been mentioned?

Yeah. Some people can't separate a licensed, non-GW video game from official fluff.

**1hadhq**

agnosto wrote:
Retribution wrote:Isn't Dawn of War the only place where sterilization has been mentioned?

Yeah. Some people can't separate a licensed, non-GW video game from official fluff.

But "licensed" beats "fanmade"...

Lots of 40k copyrighted stuff in those "licensed" things...

soo Non-GW, really?

**Retribution**

I love DoW, but there's no way i would consider it canon :]

And i believe he means "not made by"-GW

**agnosto**

1hadhq wrote:
agnosto wrote:
Retribution wrote:Isn't Dawn of War the only place where sterilization has been mentioned?

Yeah. Some people can't separate a licensed, non-GW video game from official fluff.

But "licensed" beats "fanmade"...

Lots of 40k copyrighted stuff in those "licensed" things...

soo Non-GW, really?

Unless they made a video game division recently that I didn't hear about...

When you license a product, depending upon the agreement, the licensee has a great deal of latitude in usage. You're buying rights to using the name and general concept of the IP, there's no requirement to follow the designer's product strictly. Take a look at movies made from video games or books as examples.

The only difference between licensed and fan-made is the supposed quality of the product. I've read some fan fiction in the past that matches or exceeds a professional writer's...

In any event, the sterilization comment that people try to pass off as canon is taken out of context. As someone previously stated in this thread, the narrator is assumably human and casts a dark light on all the races end-game scenarios except for the imperial ones. Imperial propoganda doesn't make it true either and such a statement doesn't match with the designer's notes (also previously posted).

**Wyvern**

There is nothing inherently evil or wrong with the communist ideals. A whole society working together as equals for the advancement of the whole rather than the individual? Its a very good idea. In theory.
The problem arises in the execution of these ideals, and the mediation of the collective. Stalin's communist Russia was run by a collection of corrupt men, looking to exploit the lower classes, and using 'communism' as a way to keep them blind to what was really going on.
Its also troublesome to get people to accept that some people have to be the low down workers, even if everyone is treated the same, some people have to do the grunt work, while others live in luxury.
In the fluff, the Tau dont have this problem. This ideaology is so deeply ingrained in their psyche that they accept their place, and strive to perfect their work in whatever caste they are born (placed?) into.

**1hadhq**

Retribution wrote:I love DoW, but there's no way i would consider it canon :]

And i believe he means "not made by"-GW

All of their publications are printed anywhere else ( mostly china ), so do we consider them too as non-GW?

IMO, canon could be : the codices, rulebooks, expansions and (personal choice incoming..) subcompanys work ( FW, BL ).

To Completley ignore the obviously licensed computergames,
( as GW shouldn't just start their own company when experienced teams are available )
even when those games added a weapon to a tabletop army whose name begins with "T"...?

I believe the software is a possible source, maybe not as solid as others, but IIRC GW's fluff-controller was working with the
software-company so this product may present a possible outcome.

Eldar farseers treat possible futures with care, but won't ignore what they dislike.

**Riffzor**

Wyvern that's a matter of opinion.

If some people think that 'Fine, the State is all that matters, my individual wealth is nothing compared to the wealth of my people', then that's up to them.

I, however, am one of those that in first hand cares about myself, my family and my friends. Secondly about my scosiety on a local level, my town/county. Thirdly about the nation as a whole, to contribute with whatever there is left for me to do.

That is my opinion, and I find any kinds of Dictatureships, political or religious, to be 'evil' and 'wrong'.

**Retribution**

1hadhq wrote:
Retribution wrote:I love DoW, but there's no way i would consider it canon :]

And i believe he means "not made by"-GW

All of their publications are printed anywhere else ( mostly china ), so do we consider them too as non-GW?

IMO, canon could be : the codices, rulebooks, expansions and (personal choice incoming..) subcompanys work ( FW, BL ).

To Completley ignore the obviously licensed computergames,
( as GW shouldn't just start their own company when experienced teams are available )
even when those games added a weapon to a tabletop army whose name begins with "T"...?

I believe the software is a possible source, maybe not as solid as others, but IIRC GW's fluff-controller was working with the
software-company so this product may present a possible outcome.

Eldar farseers treat possible futures with care, but won't ignore what they dislike.

Dawn of War is as fluffy as anything made by Goto

**agnosto**

Wyvern wrote:There is nothing inherently evil or wrong with the communist ideals. A whole society working together as equals for the advancement of the whole rather than the individual? Its a very good idea. In theory.
The problem arises in the execution of these ideals, and the mediation of the collective. Stalin's communist Russia was run by a collection of corrupt men, looking to exploit the lower classes, and using 'communism' as a way to keep them blind to what was really going on.
Its also troublesome to get people to accept that some people have to be the low down workers, even if everyone is treated the same, some people have to do the grunt work, while others live in luxury.
In the fluff, the Tau dont have this problem. This ideaology is so deeply ingrained in their psyche that they accept their place, and strive to perfect their work in whatever caste they are born (placed?) into.

An interesting take on the discussion; thanks for contributing.

**Melissia**

Personally, I consider Dark Heresy (from Fantasy Flight Games) to be far more canon than most BL books. Andy Hoare and Dan Abnett are attributed as writers in it anyway...

Regardless, Tau are not good guys, if only because there ARE no good guys in 40k. Just some that are slightly less evil.

**Retribution**

I don't think anyone tries to make them out to be the good guys, but, at least in my opinion, they're by far the least evil in 40k

**Riffzor**

How does one meassure evil?

I wouldn't call Orks or 'Nids 'evil', they follow their instinct.

**1hadhq**

agnosto wrote:
When you license a product, depending upon the agreement, the licensee has a great deal of latitude in usage. You're buying rights to using the name and general concept of the IP, there's no requirement to follow the designer's product strictly. Take a look at movies made from video games or books as examples.

I'M pretty sure a lot of authors placed strict requirements into any license they gave.

agnosto wrote:
In any event, the sterilization comment that people try to pass off as canon is taken out of context. As someone previously stated in this thread, the narrator is assumably human and casts a dark light on all the races end-game scenarios except for the imperial ones. Imperial propoganda doesn't make it true either and such a statement doesn't match with the designer's notes (also previously posted).

90% of the background claimed as wrong in one stroke.
A human POV is the standard of 40k and almost everyone uses a Human POV in his work read by Humans.

Maybe a end-game scenario where the narrator's faction lost isn't meant to paint the victors in bright colors?
If chaos wins and sacrifice the whole population its ok but if Tau win and deplete the population "peacefully" this is imperial propaganda?

What is the obsession with these "designers notes", because nobody except Tau uses such in their respective fluff threads?

**Kilkrazy**

Same as Tau.

**eNvY**

Melissia wrote:*wanders in, looking to see if people are going to try and claim Tau are the good guys, becuase as we all know, the good guys serilize their opponents' populations so that future generations don't outnumber the Tau*

You do realize that was something merely speculated at by an Imperial Citizen following a Tau victory over right? A completely biased, xenos hating imperial citizen speculated this. In a video game, not created by GW. In a game with multiple alternate endings, meaning none of them actually happened.

**Retribution**

Even if we're taking Dawn of War as canon, the Tau ending isn't considered canonical in the series, meaning the whole sterilization thing never happened anyway

**focusedfire**

Melissia wrote:Regardless, Tau are not good guys, if only because there ARE no good guys in 40k. Just some that are slightly less evil.

This echos exactly what I was saying earlier and is probably the first thing you and I have agreed upon.

Retribution wrote:Hmm, I've read the communist manifesto (Marx is a horrible writer) and I found the elimination of classes to be one of the pillars of communism, and now it's not even recognized

You will find that it is because of how language has been editied on the definitional level by various special interest groups that pressure the publishers.

This is why you will find me pushing the original meanings of words during debates on politics.

**agnosto**

1hadhq wrote:
I'M pretty sure a lot of authors placed strict requirements into any license they gave.

There's no telling; it depends upon the licensing agreement they draft. Licenses run the full gambit from total control to complete laxity depending on what the agreement is.

1hadhq wrote:
90% of the background claimed as wrong in one stroke.
A human POV is the standard of 40k and almost everyone uses a Human POV in his work read by Humans.

Maybe a end-game scenario where the narrator's faction lost isn't meant to paint the victors in bright colors?
If chaos wins and sacrifice the whole population its ok but if Tau win and deplete the population "peacefully" this is imperial propaganda?

That was kinda my point. The Tau codex has communications within the human empire about the Tau so it just stands to reason the prejudice would carry over to anything else.

1hadhq wrote:What is the obsession with these "designers notes", because nobody except Tau uses such in their respective fluff threads?

How else are you going to understand the reasoning behind their creation? You ask the person/people that made it. Like the Dark Eldar, there's very little fluff so that's what we have to go by. A better question would be, why wouldn't you listen to the people that designed it?

**Gearhead**

Wyvern wrote:There is nothing inherently evil or wrong with the communist ideals. A whole society working together as equals for the advancement of the whole rather than the individual? Its a very good idea. In theory.
The problem arises in the execution of these ideals, and the mediation of the collective. Stalin's communist Russia was run by a collection of corrupt men, looking to exploit the lower classes, and using 'communism' as a way to keep them blind to what was really going on.
Its also troublesome to get people to accept that some people have to be the low down workers, even if everyone is treated the same, some people have to do the grunt work, while others live in luxury.
In the fluff, the Tau dont have this problem. This ideaology is so deeply ingrained in their psyche that they accept their place, and strive to perfect their work in whatever caste they are born (placed?) into.

Well said. I've always thought that communism is a nice fairyland ideal, but is completely impossible in real life. Sure, it'd be nice if everyone thought more about each other and all, but once you added in the human element, it all goes straight to hell. Communism is completely at odds with human nature, but apparently the Greater Good is a bit more in line with Tau nature- even though it's a relatively recent development, something about them helps make it work.

**Melissia**

Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.

**agnosto**

Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.

You know you want to join the greater good; here, smell my armpit.

**KamikazeCanuck**

People throw around term like communist and fascist to vilify things they don't like without knowing what they really mean. The Tau are the complete opposite of communists. Not having a caste system is the core tenet of communism.
Tau are an Aristocracy.

**Retribution**

Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.

As opposed to being slaves of the god emperor

**agnosto**

Retribution wrote:
Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.

As opposed to being slaves of the god emperor

How many psykers are sacrificed to the emperor each day?

**focusedfire**

Retribution wrote:
Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.

As opposed to being slaves of the Rotting Cyborg Zombie God

Fixed it for you

**agnosto**

focusedfire wrote:
Retribution wrote:
Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.

As opposed to being slaves of the Rotting Cyborg Zombie God

Fixed it for you

Here he is!

**4M2A**

I don't know if it's because people relate to humans but compared to the imperium Tau are saints. How can you see tham as equally evil to a group that want to exterminate everything else.

Also Tau aren't communist but they do share some similarites however as mentioned earlier this isn't a bad thing. So far in our history communism has failed. For the Tau it has worked perfectly. There are no wars, evryone has a good standard of life, and they are constantly advancing.