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Snowman90 wrote:

agnosto wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:I don't think there's any fluff on the economic system of the Tau. They're just plain old "for the good of the nation" Fascists.

Not when they have an entire caste that's involved in trade. The imperium cracked down on some fringe worlds because they noticed heretical tech being employed in the form of advanced farming machinery. It's in the most recent codex.

I wouldn't say their fascist, more like spacefaring jehova's witnesses. "Excuse me sir, have your heard of the Greater Good? Here, why don't you sample this technology while I tell you about what the collective can do for you."

That's pretty much right. I didn't think of it that way, but now that it's out there, can I use it? When i make my tau army they are going to be called something like "SJHW" or "The Space Jehovah's Witnesses"

Go ahead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:The Tau are pretty clearly fascist - if you're not familar with what fascism actually is beyond it's portrayal in popular culture, the Wikipedia (ugh, I know) actually has a pretty good explanation in those introductory paragraphs. Basically everything is done to improve the state - personal goals are not encouraged. If an action does not result in a benefit for the state, it's not worth doing. This conflicts with socialism or communism, which seek the benefit of the nation's citizens foremost, each in their own ways.

Again, I disagree with the Fascism analogy. Someone could very easily identify some aspects of fascism in Tau society; the reason for this is that they are a collective society. In the modern world there've only really been two types of collective governments, Communism and Fascism. It's for this reason that the Tau are commonly lumped into one of these two categories. What you are actually seeing with the Tau is a different form of collectivism than we have seen in real life. I'll explain how the Tau differ from both and then I'll conjecture as to what they actually are (politically speaking).

Fascism.
The Tau aren't really fascist. The Merriam-Webster definition of fascism is:
"A political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."

The Tau collective does not exalt their race over others, they trade freely with all cultures that they meet and try to express the benefits of their greater good. A fascist culture would simply dominate or destroy all those they meet. The Imperium more rightly fits this category. The Tau have no dictatorial leader; they have a ruling caste that basically operates a shadow government while letting the other castes do all the work. Again there is no severe economic suppression; however, social regimentation is easily evident.

So, you see, the Tau only fit a bare margin of what is considered Fascism.

Communism.
"A totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production. A final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably."

Tau more closely fit with Communism than with Fascism as there is an authoritarian "part" (caste); however, they don't necessarily control the means of production as it would be extremely easy for the water caste to make their own deals, the earth caste to create their own products and the fire caste to wage their own wars. There is also no evidence that goods are distributed equitably within the society and it is known that the Tau are willing to trade freely with other races.

I think why people attempt to match the Tau with either Fascism or Communism is simply that these two definitions are easy to grasp and most people don't want to take the time to actually think about. Kneejerk labeling of things is human nature; "this thing belongs in this box and this other thing belongs in this other box."

If I had to put a label on what form of government I think the Tau operate within; I would have to say it is a hybrid form of Oligarchical-Collectivism. The society ruled by a small group for the benefit of the whole.

Well, as I said in the very first post, I'm no fan of either Communism or Fascism.

And as you say, it's easy to connect the Tau to both on first glance, whilst I of course see the huge differences there are.

So when a party comes up with something like 'tau-ism' I'm going to dislike them about as much as the other two, as I believe strongly in the individual responsibility and Democracy under an elected goverment on a local level.

(For example, in Sweden most politicians sits in Stockholm making laws about hunting and stuff, which have caused some raging debats about shooting wolves to protect one's cattle, or why the lapis are to have something like 40% of the country's land for their raindeers, forcing normal swedes to move from those areas and so on.)

How in the world do you think that the Tau government has "withered away". Is there any reason to think to think that any members of Tau society have any degree of autonomy?

The Tau do exalt their race above others. They engage in trade with other states hoping to make their eventual takeover peaceful - if the other state resists they will be either forcibly assimilated or eliminated. They're headed by a caste of dictators, the Ethereals, headed by Aun'va. Is there any evidence of economic freedom within Tau society? I can't see anyone being permitted to do work that didn't benefit the state (i.e. greater good).

MasterSlowPoke wrote:How in the world do you think that the Tau government has "withered away". Is there any reason to think to think that any members of Tau society have any degree of autonomy?

The Tau do exalt their race above others. They engage in trade with other states hoping to make their eventual takeover peaceful - if the other state resists they will be either forcibly assimilated or eliminated. They're headed by a caste of dictators, the Ethereals, headed by Aun'va. Is there any evidence of economic freedom within Tau society? I can't see anyone being permitted to do work that didn't benefit the state (i.e. greater good).

1st point: Before the rise of the ethereal caste; each caste, or tribe, had their own form of government and warred with each other indiscriminately. So, I guess you could say that once the controlling Oligarchs came to power, the original Tau governmental structures did "wither away".

2nd point:
Race: Page 2 of the codex; "Unlike most alien races which Humanity has encountered, the Tau are not overly hostile..."
further evidence on page 6 where it talks about the expansion of the empire and incorporation of many alien races being primarily willing. Case in point, the Kroot. Instead of conquering them, they are a willing member of the Tau empire and are even held in high esteem by the fire caste (page 6). The biggest hole in your argument is the entire first paragraph on page 7 of the codex which talks about the benefits of alien races being members of the empire and how they are granted roles of responsibility. I don't know about you but I've never seen racists honoring other races and granting them any sort of beaurocratic authority...

Dictators: The ethereal caste are pseudo-religous oligarchs. Again, a dictatorship has a supremely rigid, centralized authority. The ethereals are the true power; however, they do not make every decision that happens inside of the empire, it's simply too large and encompasses too many worlds/systems. They delegate authority to trusted beaurocrats (water caste, page 9) and even allow member species to rule themselves (otherwise the kroot would not get away with being mercenaries). The council is the ethereal caste; however, they are advised by members of the most powerful families from each caste (etheral caste, page 9). This is hardly dictatorial.

Economics: One of the primary roles of the water caste is trade. Why would you have an entire population devoted to trade and diplomacy if there wasn't an open trade system? Of course everyone is directed to serve the greater good (collectivism); however, there is mention of culture and art. Compare tau architecture with human and tell me that there aren't artists. The Dal'yth sept is completely devoted to merchantilism. Fal'shla is famed for it's art. and so on. Hardly restrictive.

I'm not saying Tau are "good"; I merely don't believe they are communist or fascist.

Well, no the Tau don't follow every part of either the Communist of Fascist ideologies, but they resemble to both in several matters. Calling them either communists or fascists are a bit over... exagurating? (Can't spell the word).

But look at Nazi Germany, Hitler didn't make every descision about everything in each town and village, a structure of the excisting beurocrats (although often supervised pretty strictly) had the responsibilities simular to that of the Water Caste in the Tau. Of course, if Hitler said 'I want you to build a bunker in this town', they would, and I'm quite sure that the case would be the same if an Etheral requested a simular task of a Tau colony.

And like Kroot, other Axis nations that weren't under direct controll of Hitler had somewhat different ideologies, such as Italy.

Atleast that's how I've understood it from my old, dusty history teacher. *shrug*

I just don't feel any of the traditional labels absolutely fits. You can definitely see aspects of Fascism and Communism in the collective sense with strong elements of Confucianism with a core Oligarchical government. Too bad they're not real, they'd be an interesting case study.

Original GW designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

"No subjugation of other races? Only enticing them with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology? That's ... that's (wiping foam from the mouth) .... genocide! What an evil communist-nazi scum!"

Please read at least one official background text on Tau and at least one text on political concepts before posting thinks like "Tau are nazi-communists". It is hard to argue with people who have no idea of what they are talking about and think that hate is a good enough substitute for logic and competence, always hoping that noone asks for any evidence for their statements.

For Tau please read the two Codices, the designer notes, the Battlefleet Gothic background texts on Tau and the novel "For the Emperor".

I live in a country, that suffered a lot from nazis and communists, so I am a bit touchy when I hear crap like this.

Kroothawk wrote:

Original GW designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

"No subjugation of other races? Only enticing them with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology? That's ... that's (wiping foam from the mouth) .... genocide! What an evil communist-nazi scum!"

Please read at least one official background text on Tau and at least one text on political concepts before posting thinks like "Tau are nazi-communists". It is hard to argue with people who have no idea of what they are talking about and think that hate is a good enough substitute for logic and competence, always hoping that noone asks for any evidence for their statements.

For Tau please read the two Codices, the designer notes, the Battlefleet Gothic background texts on Tau and the novel "For the Emperor".

I live in a country, that suffered a lot from nazis and communists, so I am a bit touchy when I hear crap like this.

I have read many things and actually extensively studied communism (to prove why it was flawed, im not a communist) and once again will say that communist is a term i use do to lack of a better word and because it makes my brother mad.

They do show hints of fascism and communism but in reality they are what many people would call a "Utopia" of sorts where while there are castes, the different races live in relative peace and work together for the so called "greater good". Due to the use of a caste system however i can not necissarily call it a Utopian society and therefore choose instead to anger my brother with cries of communism.

I always thought of the Tau like imperialists or like how the governments of Old England was. Its not a dictatorship or communism its a government and
society based off of what you are Born to do! If you are born into a family of Air Caste then that is what you will become! Each caste is forbiddon to mate with
another caste. Like a Nobel is forbidden to mate with a commoner! Each caste is physically different then each other and mentally different and especially is the
Ethereal caste. Who is the Nobel hierarchy that rules them all like how a king does!

agnosto wrote:
2nd point:
Race: Page 2 of the codex; "Unlike most alien races which Humanity has encountered, the Tau are not overly hostile..."
further evidence on page 6 where it talks about the expansion of the empire and incorporation of many alien races being primarily willing. Case in point, the Kroot. Instead of conquering them, they are a willing member of the Tau empire and are even held in high esteem by the fire caste (page 6). The biggest hole in your argument is the entire first paragraph on page 7 of the codex which talks about the benefits of alien races being members of the empire and how they are granted roles of responsibility. I don't know about you but I've never seen racists honoring other races and granting them any sort of beaurocratic authority...

Nazi Germany had non-aryans that were included as a part of the nation as a whole and these individuals participated of there own free will, while knowing the long term goal was to breed out their "mongrel traits". These Non-Aryans were often honored for their contributions to the Fatherland.

agnosto wrote:Dictators: The ethereal caste are pseudo-religous oligarchs. Again, a dictatorship has a supremely rigid, centralized authority. The ethereals are the true power; however, they do not make every decision that happens inside of the empire, it's simply too large and encompasses too many worlds/systems. They delegate authority to trusted beaurocrats (water caste, page 9) and even allow member species to rule themselves (otherwise the kroot would not get away with being mercenaries). The council is the ethereal caste; however, they are advised by members of the most powerful families from each caste (etheral caste, page 9). This is hardly dictatorial.

Every government beyond the immediate local level has a beaurocracy. the vischy french were allowed a fair amount of autonomy, and Nazi germany still danced with the aristocracy.

agnosto wrote:Economics: One of the primary roles of the water caste is trade. Why would you have an entire population devoted to trade and diplomacy if there wasn't an open trade system? Of course everyone is directed to serve the greater good (collectivism); however, there is mention of culture and art. Compare tau architecture with human and tell me that there aren't artists. The Dal'yth sept is completely devoted to merchantilism. Fal'shla is famed for it's art. and so on. Hardly restrictive.

Art dedicated to the greater good. What if the art is considered to be against the empires interests?


Now, I agree that the Tau, as are most of the other races in 40K, would have a system of government that goes beyond our current labels. I'd like to clarify that my earlier statement was referring to the necessity of engendering the Fascist type of thought process. I wasn't saying that the Tau were 100% Fascist, just that almost every major race in 40 (excluding 'nids&orks) shows fascist traits.

The Tau aren't space Commies or space Nazi's, please go look into what those ideologies actually stand for

Retribution wrote:The Tau aren't space Commies or space Nazi's, please go look into what those ideologies actually stand for

I have, I even looked into them before the current revisionist histories and definitions diluted and obscured their meanings.


(This is the older 1921 version)
Fascism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

(The newer version)
Fascism:A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Do you note the subtle shift of emphasis from attempting to scientifically define the characteristics to a judgemental statement. The first definition allows or the individual to recognize Fascist traits without an inexorable connection to dictatorship, while the second emphatically states that this systems primary trait is a dictatorial leader.


(The older one from aroun 1840)
communism : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed.

(The newer revised version)
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Communism

This one the revisions are much easier to see but what is funny is that the initial concept of a classless scociety is missing from both.

I didn't post the Leninist defintions because they focus on only one type of communism rather than on the base concept.

This thread has been deemed heretical by the Emperors Holy Inquisition =][=

The Tau are neither communist, socialist, nazi, nor followers of confucianism.

They are Utilitarists. Actually a more militant Utilitarianism. The "greater good" is one of the Utilarianism catch phrases.

Baconfat

Baconfat wrote:The Tau are neither communist, socialist, nazi, nor followers of confucianism.

They are Utilitarists. Actually a more militant Utilitarianism. The "greater good" is one of the Utilarianism catch phrases.

Baconfat

not quite true. in utilitarianism people are used how they would work best, the caste system in the tau government essentially removes the chances for a utilitarian government simply by keeping a vespid from doing the job of a fire warrior even if its better at it, or a kroot doing the job of an atherial even if he's better suit for the job.

This whole thread is a silly argument.

The amount of fluff on the Tau is so tiny that no-one can do anything but guess at how their society is organised.

There is literally more fluff about Tyranid Special Characters in the 5e codex than there is about the whole Tau Empire in all GW publications.

^Your right, but it is fun to speculate.

focusedfire wrote:^Your right, but it is fun to speculate.

QFT

its a fun way to discuss politics in a non-political environment. I find it this to be a fun thread to shoot back to whenever i feel the need for a good argument

Whatever their fluff says, it doesn't say anything about you.

Are you a nazi for playing with Wehrmacht (or whatever it's spelt) in Day of Defeat or any other online game? Are you a nazi for playing FoW with a german army?

That would be stupid.

Kilkrazy wrote:This whole thread is a silly argument.

The amount of fluff on the Tau is so tiny that no-one can do anything but guess at how their society is organised.

There is literally more fluff about Tyranid Special Characters in the 5e codex than there is about the whole Tau Empire in all GW publications.

You're right of course; however, it's fun to have polite discourse on a subject. I like this thread and the fact that even though we all have differing ideas/thoughts, no one has thrown a tantrum; just a mature discussion.

Well, I most often play Nazi's in WW2 games as of their weapons and vehicles.

Nothin' like popin' a few StG44 shots into others!

But yeah back to the topic. Whilst there may be little Tau fluff, the little there is at least says that everyone must fight for the greater good in whatever means they can within their Caste. The Fire Caste must fight for 12 years or so and do a rite after each 4th year, if they do that they may leave the 'army' and become some kinduva councilor. If not, they'll just have to keep on fighting until they're dead.

As earlier mentioned, the Tau doesn't fit into any ideology perfectly, but they have traces of several different extremist-ideologies. And yes, the Imperium of man is a fascistic empire that as far as I've understood it is pretty zealotry in their beliefs (*points at the Necron codex at the fluff where a ship is crashing and the techpriest or whatever he is, is trying to repair the ship* Just one of many examples.) Such as Omnisiah and the Emperor.. And once again my knowledge of the Imperial Fluff is limited.

Chaos do not have to rightify their deeds, they are supposed to be evil traitors, just look at the Night Lords. Criminals, rapists, murderers, turned into Space Marines under the most wicked guy their homeworld had to offer. One doesn't have to agree to their cause to play them, because it's amusing to be a little evul now and then.

Unlike Chaos, however, the Tau aren't 'evil' they're just... Ant-like.

I've already said what I think about ant-like humanoids though.

My own opinion is that the Tau aren't as constrained as most people think. If they were strictly controlled, then someone like farsight would never have had a chance to develop.

Develop? Farsight is from the Fire Caste, born on that planet famous for its aggressive Fire Warriors. Furthermore, the more the leaders try to controll their subjects, the more their subjects will rebell.

Just look at me, my parents have tried to controll me my entire life, them both being pretty fond of their part of the scosiety. I ended up as a Skinhead. *shrug*

Riffzor wrote:Develop? Farsight is from the Fire Caste, born on that planet famous for its aggressive Fire Warriors. Furthermore, the more the leaders try to controll their subjects, the more their subjects will rebell.

Just look at me, my parents have tried to controll me my entire life, them both being pretty fond of their part of the scosiety. I ended up as a Skinhead. *shrug*

I was just thinking along the lines of the ant-man approach and the imperial supposition that Ethereals control the other Tau through pheromones. You can't fight against chemical control as easily as just authoritarian rule...

And if they're so aggressive, why do they have such a low leadership? Bullies?

agnosto wrote:
I was just thinking along the lines of the ant-man approach and the imperial supposition that Ethereals control the other Tau through pheromones. You can't fight against chemical control as easily as just authoritarian rule...

Once you became aware of the problem you could start working on countermeasures.

Gearhead wrote:

agnosto wrote:
I was just thinking along the lines of the ant-man approach and the imperial supposition that Ethereals control the other Tau through pheromones. You can't fight against chemical control as easily as just authoritarian rule...

Once you became aware of the problem you could start working on countermeasures.

That's a good point and it also makes me wonder how Farsight was able to break the pheromone control (assuming it exists since it was only mentioned once in the codex and was written by an imperial observer, IIRC).

*wanders in, looking to see if people are going to try and claim Tau are the good guys, becuase as we all know, the good guys serilize their opponents' populations so that future generations don't outnumber the Tau*

Tau are pretty much Nazi's, but so is the Imperium (to a lesser extent)

The Ethereals are the Nazi Socialist party, the Aryans if you will. Each one of them is basically a vision of hitler.

They really do follow the belief of "We are better, we know better, and your not as good as us, join us, or die"

But really, stressing over the contradicting web that is 40k fluff, is the equivalent of yelling at a brick wall to stop being so hard.

Meh. It passes the time and I'm not serious about it at all. For me it's a game first and the fluff changes whenever GW wants to sell more of something so I couldn't care less.

Melissia wrote:*wanders in, looking to see if people are going to try and claim Tau are the good guys, becuase as we all know, the good guys serilize their opponents' populations so that future generations don't outnumber the Tau*

The Tau know of the Imperiums propaganda campaign falsley claiming the Tau Sterilize the human survivors, but this new serilize campain is a mystery to them.

Now for the logical argument to an illogical claim.

1)The Tau are a small Empire with limited resources and sterilizing the vast numbers of captured humans would be a vast commitment of resources with nothing to be gained.

2)If the humans were kept as prisoners or forced labour as the Imperium also claims, the Tau would not have the resources to defend there space because every avaiable FW would be on Gaurd duty.

3)If the Tau were to be engaging in the practices that the Imperium claims then there would be no humans left in their empire 300 years later, but there are. The human populations are thriving across many worlds within the Tau's Empire

4)If the Tau wanted the Humans gone, they would do as the Imperium does and slaughter every man, woman, and child.


There is no logic to support the Imperiums wild accusations.