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AbaddonFidelis wrote:Uhhhhhhh..... You mean you normally have 100 points to spare after making your list.......?
Ok never mind agree to disagree.
AF

I normally aim spend 1/8 of my points on upgrades though these can run to anything from heavy weapons to un-need transport; heck might even add an attack bike for some multimelta kamikaze work. Purely depends on what I'm missing but At 2000pts an eighth's 250pts: it's highly likely I'll still have 75pts for 3 power fists and they have done me very well in the past.

Dracos, I think you should look back over the thread. Tri, Sanctjud and myself have given a lot better reasons to bring powerfists than "hurrr they are kewl."

If that's all you've gotten out of these posts I'm afraid this has been a dreadful waste of time. They wound most things on a 2+ and penetrate a LRBT on a 3+. Oh, and ignore armor saves. That's it in a nutshell.

And I did the math on it. The math essentially disproves that as a viable reason to take it.

As for penning a LRBT, you are assuming it is standing still? Most people I play move their LRBT if you are getting close enough to assault, meaning you need 6s to hit. GL getting anything through with those odds.

Mathhammer != tabletop reality. When you factor in things like deployment and tactics you see that things don't always go the way of the calculator.

I used to be a big fan of don't give the shooty tactical squads a fist. The idea is that shooty squads do their thing, so why give them something they don't need?

However, the problem with that ideology is that in 5th edition, there's just too many ways to get at a shooting squad in the back. It used to be range was a huge factor. However, with pods, outflanking, deepstriking, turbo-boost, scouts, infiiltrate...blah blah blah, it's just impossible to keep them out of hth in some situations.

My example: The Trygon. It deepstrikes like a pod and has 6 wounds. It can't assault the turn it shows up, so you get time to shoot at it. However, because of the deepstrike, you get 1 turn. If multiple trygons show up on the same turn, it's really a bear to deal with. THe tactical squad without a fist is just helpless to one...even if the trygon only has a wound or two left. That's where the powerfist is golden.

The thing is..short of shooting it dead in one turn, it's really really hard to stop.

Range just isn't what it used to be...so powerfists are more necessary than ever...even after the power fist nerf.

It's not the only thing: You can do something similar (if less effective) with multiple dreadnoughts in a droppod. The vanguard vets can assault the turn they deepstrike. You can put 10 regular grey knights (not terminators, that was faqed out) in a valkyrie/vendetta...turboboost scout move..on first turn disembark, move 6 assault 6 (12" deploy, 24" scout turboboost, disembark 3", move 6" assault 6") Ymgarl genestealers can pop out of terrain and assault the turn they show up.

It's well known and rather well accepted that even with a fist tacticals are bad in cc, the point is to do some damage as they die, or if the enemy is weakened or weak to a fist, to hopefully finish them off. In my blood angels, I very often detached my character from his assault squad to go after tacticals without a fist(and it's great because the tacticals have a hard time running away from the higher initiative and the character usually finishes them off on turn 2, the tacticals turn)...because I knew they couldn't hurt him at all...players always think I'm gonna keep the character with his hth squad...not really.

That's stopped with a simple powerfist.

@Dracos:
True, YOU will alwasy get more use out of it.
THere are those that have reasons for not using speeders:
example:
-FA slots full.
-Don't like speeders (rules or model)
-They don't have similar armor saturation.
-They don't like single Kill points in their lists.
-They don't run Vulkan.

I don't have 100 points remaining after my intial list, but that's because I include the fists to behing with.
When I expand from my 1500 to what ever above like 2000, I'll usually have 360 points of "I don't know what I want to get."

As for being appalled at my saying, it's worked for me....which as much strength as your second sentance.
In addition, you are incorrect about the melta bombs... fists can take on anything in the 40K universe, meltabombs do not.

I've had trouble with speeders. It just goes back to my thing of range not being that great anymore. As more and more players move to mech and monsters...there's just too many things on the board that can take out a landspeeder. I think a razorback or a dread is a better buy.

I don't really go in for speeders either. I've had Lootas wreck them just one too many times. I'll go for an Ironclad over a squadron of speeders every time. YMMV

Speeders bring a lot of firepower and mobility for very few points though. I have a hell of a hard time trying to bring them down because they are so hard to hit, and they pack a punch and they are extremely cheap compared to other race's skimmers. I don't usually use my Swooping Hawks because they are a points sink but whenever my Blood Angels opponent brings his speeder squadron to the table I regret leaving them off the list because it's just so damn hard to hit them otherwise. They always go down in the end to enough massed fire, but that's a lot of wasted shots that could have been better used worrying about the rest of his army instead of distracted trying to score that lucky hit, then hoping for a pen, then hoping for the roll on the damage table. They are a huge nuissance for my largely assault oriented army because they hit hard, where they want, and when played right, completely take advantage of the vehicle movement rules while still able to dish it out. You can't ignore them, just leaving them free reign of the field with all that firepower, but you can't swat them so easily like the gnats they are either. That's a pretty cheap win-win combination for a Marine player. 150 points in one FA slot to tie up an enemy's entire shooting phase for a couple of turns seems pretty worth it to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just a side thought... please update our codex so we can knock drop pods out of the sky on their way down. I hate drop pod spam. I does kind of make sense that an entire army of hovertanks and bird-winged stuff could get them before they just land, unload, and blow the crap out of us with perfection precision. Seems like it would be top priority for an Autarch to orchestrate, and I'm pretty sure a grav tank that can fly around really fast would have a field day picking those things off as they come down.

In a game against necrons, a sternguard sarg with power sword and bolt pistol killed the same necron lord 3 times. Against necrons, power swords are 100x more effective than fists, simpley because necrons have a lack of units with invs, and bad initative.

I rather stay away from tailoring to specific armies...esp. ones that are older than the SMurf codex and in need of an update.

They put a hurting on SoB as well, but then, needs an update Soo... yeah.

I think the subject at hand would be discussing sergeants in an All-Comers list.

Monster Rain wrote:They put a hurting on SoB as well, but then, needs an update Soo... yeah.

I think the subject at hand would be discussing sergeants in an All-Comers list.

I use my sarges higher leadership to make morale tests. IMHO that is their best use

Sure, GW give them the ability to take all sorts of (often expensive) options, but unless you some how don't have FoC slots or units that need the points more, upgrading sarges isn't something you should be doing. You want a combat character who puts the smack down on units? A sarge is not what you are looking for. Can he contribute? sure, but usually not enough to invest a bunch of points on him. I give mine a bolt pistol and chainsword, since its a free upgrade, all it costs me is one shot, and I get a CC attack. Doesn't sound like much, but against GEqs you need all you can get unless you like being tarpitted and swarmed to death. The sarge with 3 attacks (being charged, or ongoing) nearly has as many attacks as the rest of the squad combined. Should you upgrade to a powersword? I don't think so, since you aren't going to kill enough meqs to be worth your time (unless its the squad with the captain or libby, then PW density is going to be worth it), and it costs to much to use against guard's 5+ save.

The sad thing:
9 marines: 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds, about .75 wounds vs. another meq.

sgt with fist: 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.833 wounds vs. another meq.

sgt with p. weapon, 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 0.75 wounds

Yes, the sergeant with fist does more damage than the rest of the squad in hth against marines.

That's why you charge to get the extra attacks.

Even charging, the marines do more, but just barely.
That's sad. We're talking about 9 marines vs. one model. And that's against meq's. Against anything tougher than a meq, it just gets worse and worse.

But then, this is why people consider tact marines kinda meh, but that's a different thread.

Well, they have boltguns for a reason.

The powerfist is just a great all around death dealer. Good against Infantry, good against vehicles should the need arise. It's the Boy Scout's motto: "Be Prepared", be ready for a stray walker intent on tarpitting a 200 point unit for the entire game. A powefist to the chops will fix 'em (or in the butt as the Marine Seargent's are known for )

Nine Space Marines can get luckier than a Veteran with a Power Fist. At most the Veteran is going to cause three wounds, while the nine Space Marines can cause up to eighteen. So while the average and the unlucky are both a wash, the Marines can cause up to six times as many wounds. That potential counts for something.

These days I find I'm better off with my Tactical Marines moving up to address an incoming enemy unit with a Flamer, or moving back into a firing line to address them with a Melta Gun or Plasma Gun. Sometimes they just stand and shoot. Better to get the full benefit of shooting rather than worrying about shooting yourself out of a charge with Assault weapons, or giving the enemy assault troops a free round of combat.

Sometimes it's worth it to run in the opposite direction, in order to prevent a charge!

With the layered defense of a forward unit 1" in front, I'll be able to withdraw the survivors of the charge out of combat using Combat Tactics and still be able to Fall Back far enough to Rally automatically if I roll 8+/2D6.

With the points saved on Power Fists, I can have a Sternguard squad do what they do best, which is murdering enemy units in Rapid Fire range.

To return to my earlier point about denying the enemy a free round of close combat, regardless of whether they get a Furious Charge or other charge bonuses, consider a unit of Tactical Space Marines facing an identical unit. The cost/benefit of shooting a unit that can assault next player turn, as opposed to shooting and then charging is:

20 Bolter shots, 13 hits, 7 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds to the target unit. No wounds to the attacking unit. The result is 2:0 in favour of the attacker.

10 Bolt Pistol shots, and then 18 normal attacks and 3 Power Fist attacks simultaneous with 9 normal attacks back and 2 Power Fist attacks. 6 shots hit, 3 wound, 1 unsaved wound. 9 attacks hit, 5 wound, 2 unsaved wounds. 2 Power Fist attacks hit, 1 unsaved wound. 5 normal attacks back hit, 2 wound, 1 unsaved wound. 1 Power Fist attack back hits, 1 unsaved wound. The final result being 3:2 in favour of the attacker.

Now that I think about it, didn't we have this discussion before? Oh, we did
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/229316.page

Ha! Neither GBF or deadshane have posted in this thread. That means I, suggestor of the double power weapon, am the true winner!

But you get the same number of attacks with one pow
...
Silence you! Clearly two power weapons on a sergeant is better than one!

LOL