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AbaddonFidelis wrote:well monster before I get to your points let me say... I've been nothing but polite to you... that I can recall... so what's up with all the hostility?

anyway...
I didnt address your atsknf comment bc it's unrelated to what I was talking about. I was talking about conducting your shooting and movement phase such that you won't get charged by the few things that you need a power fist to kill; or failing that just chump the squad. squads die. it happens. and it's ok: as long as you hurt them worse than they hurt you you're still ahead.

The other part of your original post said I shouldnt ignore walkers in drop pods. since frankly I had no idea what you were talking about I just passed over it.

you said: your interpretation of "target saturation" is somewhat misguided.
ok.... care to guide me?

anyway try not to get so upset if I say something you dont like. It's ok to just say "I disagree here's why..."
AF

Who's upset?

I disagreed with your idea that only bad players get into unfavorable assaults, you reiterated that this was indeed the case. This is nonsense.

As for Target saturation, Sanctjud has outlined it brilliantly.

Anyway, no trouble man. There's more than one way to screw a goose.

Except I'm on his ignore list, so he won't see it.
Keep up Monster lol, Darkhound and willydstyle are also ignored to for having differing opinons and defending them.

well... your post made it seem like you were upset.... making unfounded accusations using insulting language etc... when people do that I think maybe they're feeling angry. If that's you maybe you can read a book... listen to some nice relaxing classical music.... write about your feelings in a journal maybe. It's not good to hold on to negative emotions...

anyway yes it is indeed the case that only players who have made a mistake get into unfavorable assaults. most of the time. it's better to fix the tactical decision that lead to that situation, which costs 0 points, than to squander 100 points on a 1 in 10 chance of extracting the unit from the situation.

yes I know what a walker in a drop pod is. what I dont know is how it relates to our conversation. I'm a little slow I guess could you explain it to me?

as for target saturation: ok whatever.
AF

Good players will also find ways to get some of their 9 killa kans or Flyrants or hell god knows what else somewhere you'd rather not have them.

I don't think of the fists as "insurance" I think of it as something else to spank the enemy into submission with. Bad assault insurance is a tertiary benefit.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Captain
I can run my bikes as troops bc of kor'sarro not vulkan.

Psst! no. he needs to ride moondrakken. sorry.

Monster Rain
well ok do you think its better to shoot the killa kanz or to rely on your power fist.....?
I can feel this conversation winding down.........

Solon
yeah I run him on moondraken. That wasnt clear from looking at the list. sorry my mistake.
AF

Power Fists are great to have and are more versatile than power swords. However, power swords work well with plasma pistols or plasma combi-weapons in squads that are primarily for point defense and need to hold positions against attacking infantry of all stripes. I find this unit to be deadly to units arriving from deep strike and can divide into a shooty combat squad or a fighty one that can work together assasinate a monstrous creature without getting its hands dirty.

Otherwise powerfists are necessary and rule 90% of the time.

Valkyrie wrote:I always arm mine with Power Weapons as standard, with Plasma Pistols if I have enough points spare.

I never get Plasma Pistols, they're to risky- Especially if their tooled up with melta bombs and special close combat weapons. My weapon of choice has to be stormbolter.

You may make the point that PF only has 5% or so chance of working on a dread, But it is also really good for popping non LR tanks. I'd take 3 attacks at S8 over 1 attack at s6 any day. With a powerfist I can reasonably expect to hit a combat speed vehicle and have an OK chance at a cruising vehicle. Again, tactical squads are all about versatility. They need to be able to do the job of any unit on the table. If you want specialization, that's what Fast Attack, Elite, and Heavy Support Slots are for.

Power fist. I really feel for players who don't bother, and then have to play my Orks.

AP3 weaponry as a priority is not really the safest investment for competitive play nowadays, what with the prevalence of cover saves. A squad of 1kSons in a Chaos army is nice, but taking more than a single unit is redundant.

pf in one tac squad, i like the sergeant still can have his bolter, since i use my tacs for rapid fire and advance only
in my second squad i love the combi flamer, combi flamer with flamer and m launcher is still really cheap and you get nice blasts against orks and tyranids

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Monster Rain
well ok do you think its better to shoot the killa kanz or to rely on your power fist.....?
I can feel this conversation winding down.........

Right lets settle this as I've played just this sort of list. I'll give you all the best weapons so this is fair. You shoot the killer cans BS4 with lascannon odds to destroy are 33.33% then you need to get through the kustom force field 16.66% so to destroy each kan you need about 6 shots so that 54 shots to kill them all. It takes about 2-3 turns to get across the board, now assuming that you can see all the kans and you've got 8 or so lascannons you'll manage to kill about 4. If you've got a melta you kill another (odds are still about 33.%, and with kustom 16.%) (oh bolters, BTW, have odds of .92% so you'll need about a 100 shots per kan) Now you're in combat close to the edge of the board do you fall back?

Oh and that's completely ignoring the rest of the army, you'll now have swarms of ork boys with the hidden nob.

Thaylen wrote:You may make the point that PF only has 5% or so chance of working on a dread, But it is also really good for popping non LR tanks. I'd take 3 attacks at S8 over 1 attack at s6 any day. With a powerfist I can reasonably expect to hit a combat speed vehicle and have an OK chance at a cruising vehicle. Again, tactical squads are all about versatility. They need to be able to do the job of any unit on the table. If you want specialization, that's what Fast Attack, Elite, and Heavy Support Slots are for.

A powerfist has 3 attacks on the charge. If the tank moved and has rear armor 10, that is 1.5 hits, or .5 hit (if it moved over 6). 2 to glance and 3 to pen, then you need a 5 to destroy, though a 4 is often good too. Or you could just use the squads krak, sure you need a 4 to glance, but you have more attempts, and they are free. Or you could give the sarge a 5 point melta bomb, when it hits is nearly always pens.

So the powerfist is somewhat useful against vehicles that don't have AV 14, true (though in my mind not much better than using the squads krak and maybe a meltabomb) So what non LR tanks are likely to be close to a tactical squad? A rhino, costs 35, an ork trukk, costs 35, A chimera, costs 55 points. So you are going to use a sarge who has a 25 point upgrade (and don't forget the base cost too) to have a less than 50 percent chance of destroying it?

Tactical squads are about versatility. Sure, I agree with this actually. But they already have the tools to do the job you are wanting the powerfist for. Sure, its not the ideal tools to do the job, but a powerfist doesn't get it done either.

Personally the idea of punching tank to death with your fists sounds rather absurd (unless you are orks, who have nothing better).

But it's not just about anti-vehicle.
It's there as a weapon of oppurtunity (otherwise defensively).

3 Attacks is better than the 1 attack with kraks.
Else, these are three attacks going at an MC or IC.
If it's vs. MEQ's then it essntially means one kill, which is important.

Certainly (as discussed by others before) you don't spam them everywhere, but they are themselves not so expensive with respect to what they can do. Which is then an issue of: does one personally feel confident that the elements in their army will never need it.

I'm in the boat of preparing for the worst, even if I manage to never use it, because it's not just a game with you, but with your opponent and there are times when you just can't dictate the terms of engagment.

Repost since some people are blocking you ^_^

Sanctjud wrote:But it's not just about anti-vehicle.
It's there as a weapon of oppurtunity (otherwise defensively).

3 Attacks is better than the 1 attack with kraks.
Else, these are three attacks going at an MC or IC.
If it's vs. MEQ's then it essntially means one kill, which is important.

Certainly (as discussed by others before) you don't spam them everywhere, but they are themselves not so expensive with respect to what they can do. Which is then an issue of: does one personally feel confident that the elements in their army will never need it.

I'm in the boat of preparing for the worst, even if I manage to never use it, because it's not just a game with you, but with your opponent and there are times when you just can't dictate the terms of engagment.

Also i don't think the advantage of of power-fists in combat has been emphasize enough. You can pick out an IC with it, while they cannot directly target you. Though there are IC with Eternal warrior or T5+, many are only T3-4 which means you can cause Instant death. Against vehicles you can damage them, hell melta a vehicle and immobilise it you can charge and auto hit.

And finally there's the fear factor. Given the choice of charging two other wise identical units, one with one without, I'll pick the one without first and make sure to soften the other one up as much as possible.

Against a MC, a fist does usually 1 wound. The other guys might get lucky and add one or two also, but probably not. (and def. not if its a T8 one) If you are facing a cc MC, you are not going to kill it in time.

Against IC, sure, the fist is great. If you do manage to get the wound through the invul save, its probably going to paste the guy. (unless they have eternal warrior)

Against meqs, one kill is one kill. Or you could take a powersword with bolt pistol and get 1 kill, for cheaper, and the chance to kill more than the PF has attacks if you get lucky.

So lets look at what PF does:

Doesn't kill walkers very well
Doesn't kill MC very well
Doesn't kill enough Meqs or Geqs
Doesn't perform much higher against vehicles than krak from the squad (and he can take a melta bomb to contribute to the bomb attack)
Pastes IC's that don't have eternal warrior
Costs 25 points, vs options that work nearly as well and are free or much cheaper.

So its really good against ICs that don't have eternal warrior. So, exactly what are the odds that an IC is going to be assaulting a tac squad when I'm sure there are other places he could attack? If your army has multiple fists, pretty good. If you just take 1-2, I'm better not every high.

So not only is the PF a really below par choice for its points against what it is supposed to kill, the one thing it does do a good job against, your opponent probably only has 1-2.

@notabot187:
Why are you assuming the MC was not softened up before.
Seriously, if the fist will do one wound, plus possible more, you can leave the MC alive after taking most wounds off it and not shoot it, allocate resources elsewhere, get a cool extra 6" movment and kill the MC in combat and then get anoterh D6" of movement.

That sounds really good, and only depends on average rolling.

As for attacking MEQs, yup 1 and 1 each. What I think you are not addressing is that the fist does not discriminate...it does ALL of that, without needing to tailor, so you pay for the flexibility.
You pay to be able to say "This squad can deal with ANYTHING in the 40K universe."

Really.... you had to go into a list:
-Walker: so you rather hit it with krak grenades on 6's?
4's to hit and 4's to glance is pretty good in combat. Certainly you want to shoot it dead, but hey, gak happens....else, there's the fleeting kinds or the kinds that charge out of pods (the forge world kinds).
-MC killing: again, read above, we are assuming compitent players.
-that's not it's main purpose, but it's not bad either.

As for IC NOT attacking that squad...again, it's a deterrent...you've just changed the enemy game plan. You have just pushed the IC to attack something else and add to their durability indirectly.

I really don't know what else to say. The fist is a personal choice, there's nothing bad about it. People will weight different aspects of it differently, certainly, but I've seen fists do more good than doing poorly (remember it might not be the fist, it could very well be the dice, generalship, placement, etc. that makes it look bad).

notabot187 wrote:Against a MC, a fist does usually 1 wound. The other guys might get lucky and add one or two also, but probably not. (and def. not if its a T8 one) If you are facing a cc MC, you are not going to kill it in time.

one would hope to remove some wounds on the way in but carry on.

Against IC, sure, the fist is great. If you do manage to get the wound through the invul save, its probably going to paste the guy. (unless they have eternal warrior)

Against meqs, one kill is one kill. Or you could take a powersword with bolt pistol and get 1 kill, for cheaper, and the chance to kill more than the PF has attacks if you get lucky.

So lets look at what PF does:

Doesn't kill walkers very well

Walkers you're fighting WS vs WS normally that's 4+, you can hurt them which is better then not at all

Doesn't kill MC very well

Nothing kills MC very well. Yes you can lascannon, autocannon or even melta most of them but thats still only causing it one wound each, when it finally does reach you it would be nice to finish it off.

Doesn't kill enough Meqs or Geqs

? how many does it need to? wounding on a 2+ no armour save ... sure you may get 1 more power weapon attack but it they break even.

Doesn't perform much higher against vehicles than krak from the squad (and he can take a melta bomb to contribute to the bomb attack)

? Kraks are Str6 and vs walkers only ever hit on a 6. If you think they work as well I'm sorry but thats not true.

Pastes IC's that don't have eternal warrior
Costs 25 points, vs options that work nearly as well and are free or much cheaper.

Sure lots of things are cheaper but for the same reason you take a missile launcher then a lascannon, it some times better to do a little of everything then one thing really well. That way you're always able to do something.

So its really good against ICs that don't have eternal warrior. So, exactly what are the odds that an IC is going to be assaulting a tac squad when I'm sure there are other places he could attack? If your army has multiple fists, pretty good. If you just take 1-2, I'm better not every high.

? Point is you'll be in a Rhino, drop-pod, ect and heading to meet them.

So not only is the PF a really below par choice for its points against what it is supposed to kill, the one thing it does do a good job against, your opponent probably only has 1-2.

But on the other hand if you're facing Nids or Orks you'll have lots of targets.

Sanctjud and Tri have spelled it all out perfectly. It's fine to say that one doesn't prefer to use powerfists, quite another to say that they aren't effective for the points.

What is better, a 25 percent chance of wounding a Wraithlord or 0 chance?

Killing one MEQ in cc or 2 or 3?

One grenade attack or 3 S8 attacks?

Sometimes I use my squads with fists to charge MCs! Ever have a Trygon pop up in your DZ and have a bunch of other stuff you'd rather shoot at? A couple of combat squads with powerfists and melta guns solves the problem pretty nicely.

Ever have an opponent so close to tabled that your Tactical Squads are in their deployment zone getting ready to finish off the Tervigons because the damned Hive Guard killed your Dreadnoughts and your Terminators are out of position because the Zoanthropes nuke your Land Raider? It's a snap with a fist.

I couldn't tell you how many Vulkans, Chaplain and Librarians have been insta-gibbed with these things... my own and others. I could go on and on, but you get the point.

Tri
Its tempting to get into the meltaguns vs lascannons angle of this discussion...since you said you'd give me my best gun for shooting. I think if you run the numbers you will find that twin linked meltaguns have a pretty good shot at killing the kans. something like a 40% chance each. Which for one gun is not bad at all.

I think the better angle is this: do you really expect the power fist to save your squad of tacticals against 3 grot kans? If they charge you they'll elminate half the squad before you swing once. If you charge them you're a slow. It's pretty much lose/lose. So if you're going to lose a squad either way, why lose a 25 point piece of wargear too? That's my point. power fists won't really save you in a bad assault, so why spend the 25 points?

AF



Automatically Appended Next Post:
listen to notabot he's giving you the strait dope.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Tri
Its tempting to get into the meltaguns vs lascannons angle of this discussion...since you said you'd give me my best gun for shooting. I think if you run the numbers you will find that 4 twin linked meltaguns are more than capable of dealing with the kan mob, forcefield or no.

I think the better angle is this: do you really expect the power fist to save your squad of tacticals against 3 grot kans? If they charge you they'll elminate half the squad before you swing once. If you charge them you're a slow. It's pretty much lose/lose. So if you're going to lose a squad either way, why lose a 25 point piece of wargear too? That's my point. power fists won't really save you in a bad assault, so why spend the 25 points?

AF

^_^ four melta guns ...ignoring that tactical squads can't have 4 meltas, isn't getting within charge range of the kan's not exactly what you were telling me was stupid? The odds per TL- Melta gun is only 37% vs a Kan being protected by a custom force field. So even if you had 4 you're only likely to kill one.

combi-melta and pistol
cheap and gives 2nd melta to the squad

Monster

I'm going to address each of your points 1 by 1.... because I know how you much it hurts your feelings to be ignored...

wraithlords: I'm willing to accept that if I'm in close combat with a wraith lord I'm going to lose the squad. The plus side is the wraith lord will take all day to kill them, bc it only has 2 attacks Anyway what's better? to pay 25 points for a 1 in 4 chance of hurting the wraith lord, or to pay 0 points and just stay out of the dern thing's way? It's like 20 feet tall, has no invulnerable, and its slower than the 2nd coming of christ. it's not hard to kill in shooting, honestly.

meqs: do the numbers please. a power fist does is unlikely to kill 3 marines in close combat, even on the charge. If you charge and the dice are with you you'll kill 2. If you get charged 1. (the odds are actually worse than that, which you'll see if you do the math, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.) Anyway why are your tacticals fighting other tacticals?

about grenades: again you're bringing up a marginal situation. Most vehicles can move 12 and make you roll on 6s, so there's not much difference betwee a power fist and a krak grenade here. against a walker (lets say a dread) your odds are still very marginal. 4s to hit 4s to glance even if you pen only a 1 in 3 chance of killing it. Sorry to sound condescending but, again, do the numbers. Odds are your marines will get locked in cc with this thing forever power fist or no. If you had a *chain* fist it would be another story...

No I've never had an opponent so close to tabled that my Tactical Squads are in their deployment zone getting ready to finish off the Tervigons because the damned Hive Guard killed my Dreadnoughts and my Terminators are out of position because the Zoanthropes nuked my Land Raider? But if it ever does happen to me I'll reevaluate power fists. promise

As for instant killing independent characters... Here I agree with you. A power fist in a terminator squad or in a command squad or some other hard core assault unit can round out their capabilities perfectly. You don't have to worry about never getting to swing because your buddies are killing the little guys at init 4 or better, but they might not have the strength to kill the really nasty stuff. hence the power fist. This is what makes lightning claws and thunder hammers an excellent combination, for example. So if we're talking about power fists in *tactical* or other *non close combat oriented* squads then I'm going to stand by what I said earlier - they're a waste don't take them. But if you mean in terms of the game as a whole then no I don't believe that.

Look you've got to stop thinking about the 10,000 what-ifs of 40k and focus on the most likely scenarios. the only one of those that you addressed were MEQ vs MEQ and MEQ vs IC. In the 1st case it's nice but not worth 25 points. In the 2nd it will make a difference most of the time so I'll give you that. MEQ vs Monsters, Hardcore assault units, vehicles, or GEQ it doesnt make any kind of difference. If I'm buying wargear at 25 points a piece it needs to be useful *most* of the time not *some* of the time. I'd rather just use tactical decisions to keep out of the few situations where I really need it then to hobble the rest of my army by buying 1 for every squad at 100+ points.

AF



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tri.
yes. tacticals can't have 4 meltaguns.
which is why they blow.
bikes...bikes...bikes....

anyway about your 37% idea... Math doesn't work like that. You can't say 37x4 = 148 so I'll probably kill 1. Sorry that's just not the way it works. Each throw of the dice is a seperate entity it has to be considered seperately. This is not my personal opinion here. It's the universal law of mathematics.

Anyway I appended the post so we're not talking about 4 meltaguns. It introduces too many foreign elements to the discussion so just grant me that a twin linked meltagun is better for killing a kan than a lascannon and I'm happy

AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
but did you want to talk about that or the actual substance of my post?

Vs MEQ
Power Fist 2,3
3/6, 5/6 = 15/36 = 41.6%
Power weapon 3,4
3/6 3/6 = 9/36 = 25%
Both effectively cause 1 wound though power weapons may cause more. (corrected another error but changes very little in this case)

Vs GEQ
Power Fist 2,3
4/6, 5/6 = 20/36 = 55.5%
Power weapon 3,4
4/6 4/6 = 16/36 = 44.4%
Power weapon edges forward, but only noticeably on the charge, Then again vs GEQ you don't really need ether weapons.

Vehicles may move 12" but apart from those that are fast, you're more likely to see them moving 6", so they can shoot.

Edit Melta guns ... oops you're right did 5/6 on the damage chart, should have been 4/6 ...
BS, Pen, damage chart, cover save.
(4/6, 33/36, 4/6, 3/6) + (4/6 2/36 2/6 3/6) = 1632/7776 = 20.9%
odds on...
4 meltas killing 1 kan = 61.%
4 meltas killing 3 kans = is tricky but ... = 3.1%

uhhh... meqs are weapon skill 3?


anyway I guess you're dropping that whole kan wall argument.

the meltaguns are twin linked. not 4/6 to hit, 2/3 hit and 2/3 of the remaining 1/3 hit or 88%

The penetration fraction should be 2/3. if I get a 3 its bumped up to a 4 because of ap 1. kan walls come in squadrons and count immobilized results as destroyed.

So the odds of 1 twin linked meltagun killing 1 kan in a squadron in cover are: 22/25 hit x 11/12 penetrate x 1/2 cover x 2/3 destroyed results = 484/1800 = 26/100 if I penetrate and 242/1800 = 13/100 if I glance. Roughly 35% on the whole (not sure about combining the two fractions so I'll just cut the 2nd in half and call it fair. willing to bet no one here has the mathematical training to correct it but if we have any mathematicians I'd be anxious to hear what the real rule is.)
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:As for instant killing independent characters... Here I agree with you. A power fist in a terminator squad or in a command squad or some other hard core assault unit can round out their capabilities perfectly. You don't have to worry about never getting to swing because your buddies are killing the little guys at init 4 or better, but they might not have the strength to kill the really nasty stuff.

I have to disagree about command squads being a "hard core assault unit". Simply having veteren stats does not make a unit a hard core assault unit. The only thing that qualifies in the SM codex is the assault terminators.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:anyway about your 37% idea... Math doesn't work like that. You can't say 37x4 = 148 so I'll probably kill 1. Sorry that's just not the way it works. Each throw of the dice is a seperate entity it has to be considered seperately. This is not my personal opinion here. It's the universal law of mathematics.

Actually that is not true. He couldn't say that it will kill 1, but he could certainly find the average number of kills (.37x 4=1.48) and say he'll probably kill 1. The fact you are referring to is that a probability distribution has a confidence value, meaning that for Range (of kills) X to Y, there is Z probability that any given roll will fall in that range. Z probability is never 100%, since it is possible to roll nothing but 1s.

@AF:

Most vehicles can move 12 and make you roll on 6s, so there's not much difference betwee a power fist and a krak grenade here.

3 Attack vs. 1 Attack, no difference?

Look you've got to stop thinking about the 10,000 what-ifs of 40k and focus on the most likely scenarios.

It's a dice game, the 'what-ifs' creep out all the time.
In addition, as transparent as the game is, there are important variables that are unknown to you. (ex. what the opponent will do with a fast army).

If I'm buying wargear at 25 points a piece it needs to be useful *most* of the time not *some* of the time.

But your 'most of the time' is not everbody's 'most of the time'. As said, there are things that do not have to 'make points back' to be effective.
As you even support, the fist can be a deterrent (to MC, IC, Walkers) and it's useful, just that it can't be measured by any qualitative values.

One thing that is missing from all the comparative values given, is a value for average kills from a Sgt. with no special weapons. If you add that in, and compare both power fist and power weapon averages, then you will get a better picture of what your 15 and 25 points are getting you.

Comparing them to each other is somewhat of a folly, since they are different point values and do not have a starting point to show what each gets you on its own.

Ok final one...
TL Melta guns.

BS, Pen, damage chart, cover save.
(32/36, 33/36, 4/6, 3/6) + (32/36 2/36 2/6 3/6) = 13056/46656 = 28.%
odds on...
4 meltas killing 1 kan = 73.1%
4 meltas killing 3 kans = is tricky but ... = 6.9%

The only consistancy is inconsistancy.