Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I find them to be flexible.

I think that using your Tactical Squads... well... tactically is a key to winning a lot of games with SM. You gotta know when to hold em, know when to fold em. Know when to walk away and know when to run.

As said, they do any role you want, and hold their own easily. They might not be the best troop choice, but they sure ain't the worst.

sorry, at the end of second paragraph, should write powerfist.

I'm not against power fists. I just don't like them that much.

personal opinion, I know fists have saved my Tacs more then once, and against things like 'stealers, where you will hit last anyway, it's a really excelent choice.

Powerfist = Dreadnought Insurance

Plus when you have a fist you don't feel near as bad about having the combi-weapon since you won't lose attacks. I almost always run PF+Combi-Flamer or PF+Combi-Melta. If I have points I'll some times be known to run Melta-bombs in tandem w/ the fist so I can challenge a land raider or death or glory a battlewagon if needed. It may cost you in points but, I'd rather have 4 units that can kill anything on the board than 5 units that can't handle a dread or LR.

I tend to run my Tac Squads w/ PF, Combiweapon, meltabombs, Flamer/Melta (opposite of what I did for the combi- weapon, versatility is key), and Las. Though I have been tempted by the versatility of the missile launcher of late. My squads tend to run in the 250ish range w/ transport. A bit pricey, but they can engage any target.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
Which is why you'd pay point for it? Rhinos last longer than marines, so it wouldn't be stupid to put weapons in them.

? If you're talking about paying points for them then why wouldn't you always take it any way?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Tri
they're a rare and finite resource true. then again marines are the elite of the elite, the very tippity top of the imperial armies. if anyone would have unfettered access to special weapons it's them. Especially considering the vaunted "flexibility" of your average tac spud.
AF

I don't agree with that. Every space marine can use a bolter but not every space marine can use a special weapon.

Actually every Space Marine CAN use any special weapon. They're trained as scouts to use every weapon in the Space Marine Arsenal, then become Devestators, earn the trust to handle a heavy weapon, move on to Assault MArines if they can handle the role change, move on to tacticals and from there its 1st company.

Fuegan wrote:Actually every Space Marine CAN use any special weapon. They're trained as scouts to use every weapon in the Space Marine Arsenal, then become Devestators, earn the trust to handle a heavy weapon, move on to Assault MArines if they can handle the role change, move on to tacticals and from there its 1st company.

Oh right. Of course they get the special more "expensive" roles before becoming the basic tac marine. GW messed that up big time. It should be the other way around IMO. You begin as a tactical marine and then specialise.

Yea, they retconned it...and I agree, GW messes up gaks on alot of things.

I have some issues with some ideas on here, particularly on how good a PF is.

Usefulness against normal infantry: 2-3 attacks, killing 1-2 (counting for misses and rolls of 1 to wound) Not exactly exciting for the points spent.

Usefulness vs walkers: Most walkers are AV 12 that you will be fighting. A powerfist has 2 attacks. 3 if you charge (and why would you?) So 1 hit, and you need to roll a 5 to pen (as a glance won't destroy it) then you need to roll a 5+ to destroy. It ends up being like a 5% chance of destroying it with a powerfist. So you are paying 25 points (a hefty investment) for a 5% chance of destroying a dred? Personally I say no thanks. I would rather chose to fall back and regroup. Its nice what combat tactics and They ATSKNF does for marine's options.

Against T8: 2 attacks (as in why would you charge the few T8 MCs?) 1 hit, .5 wounds. If you are fighting a Ctan, you lose. If you are fighting a wraithlord, you probably tie, but are more likely to lose than win. So how useful was that powerfist for 25 points? Maybe a single wound on a MC? I'll pass. Even against a more common T5 or 6 MC, you are still looking at just one wound on average.

So what use is a powerfist? Instant killing multiwound models. How effective is it? Not very, but you should hit and wound once, and that wound usually kills outright. So if you think your particular squad might be facing attached ICs a PF isn't a bad item to have. Its not effective against units of multiwound characters, but nothing you could give him instead would be either.

So in most situations, I would not bother with a PF upgrade. Combi upgrades aren't too bad, if you have a specific use in mind, or have a free 10 points laying around. But giving every sarge one quickly adds up. If I have the points I give some sarges a melta bomb: Its about as effective against walkers as a PF, and its very cheap. Also I can't even remember how many times I've faced an immobile tank (or just killing a drop pod for KP hunting) and didn't have anything to finish it off in shooting.

As for Powerswords: I actually like this, since you can use bolt pistol and PW. 3 attacks, 4 on charge is pretty decent at killing infantry. Its not cheap, but its not PF expensive (and it gets more attacks) The drawback? No bolter, but losing out on those shots isn't likely to matter anyways (small arms fire only matters in large quantities, losing his shots is a fractional deduction in you squads shooting output). If you are assaulting you can't even fire them to begin with, so that makes it even less an issue. I personally only use them in combat squads that are moving foward. So usually the melta or flamer squads sarge gets a power weapon. Squads that going to be back field don't (sized razorback squads, or plasma squads)

Stormbolters: This weapon is a joke. I'm paying 10 points for 2 assault bolter shots? Um yeah... This weapon is nice when it comes with the model, like rhinos or grey knights. Paying for it? I'll pass.

With all that being said, I'm usually such a miser in points that the only thing my sarge gets most games is a chainsword replacing his bolter. It doesn't help much against Meqs, but its good enough against Geqs, and it doesn't cost me anything but a bolter shot.

notabot187 wrote:Usefulness vs walkers: Most walkers are AV 12 that you will be fighting. A powerfist has 2 attacks. 3 if you charge (and why would you?) So 1 hit, and you need to roll a 5 to pen (as a glance won't destroy it) then you need to roll a 5+ to destroy. It ends up being like a 5% chance of destroying it with a powerfist. So you are paying 25 points (a hefty investment) for a 5% chance of destroying a dred? Personally I say no thanks. I would rather chose to fall back and regroup. Its nice what combat tactics and They ATSKNF does for marine's options.

So what happens when an Armoured Sentinel, Wraith-Lord, Defiler and so forth charges you? Don't say fall back you still can't regroup if there is an enemy within 6"; I've walked more then one unit off the board that way.

preach it notabot

Tri
what happens is you lose the squad.
just play so to prevent your marines getting into combat with that stuff. It's not that hard honestly.

I'm against the whole idea of spending 25 points per squad as "insurance" for one particular situation. If it isn't useful *most* of the time don't take it.
AF

Tri wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Usefulness vs walkers: Most walkers are AV 12 that you will be fighting. A powerfist has 2 attacks. 3 if you charge (and why would you?) So 1 hit, and you need to roll a 5 to pen (as a glance won't destroy it) then you need to roll a 5+ to destroy. It ends up being like a 5% chance of destroying it with a powerfist. So you are paying 25 points (a hefty investment) for a 5% chance of destroying a dred? Personally I say no thanks. I would rather chose to fall back and regroup. Its nice what combat tactics and They ATSKNF does for marine's options.

Sio what happens when an Armoured Sentinel, Wraith-Lord, Defiler and so forth charges you? Don't say fall back you still can't regroup if there is an enemy within 6"; I've walked more then one unit off the board that way.

You let a footslogging model get within assault range of you. Either you used that unit as a sacrifice, or you screwed up horribly. Getting knocked out of a transport in range of a walker/mc is in the category of screwing up. Getting out that close is in the category of screwing up by the numbers, or a clever sacrifice.

Having a good chance to regroup considering how you got to that point is better than shelling out 25 points for a very low chance of doing anything. Spend those points on other units, having a number of powerfists in your army means you aren't taking other things. Something as simple as 3 PFs (with their combined 15 percent chance to destroy a walker in CC) easily pays for a MM/HF land speeder, or even TLPG/LC razoback. Those units have a much higher chance of taking out the units PF are supposedly good at killing.

Also if they are using that model to walk a unit of the board, its not safe in combat and can be shot at (which is the goal is it not?) Once it is killed or your unit flees far enough, you can regroup safely. Having a chance to regroup and go after an objective is better than being tarpitted on your objective (and thus it being contested rather than controlled)

Monster Rain
OT is your profile picture Sauron commanding a bunch of storm troopers? lol

Good grief i see why you don't agree now. At no point should you be giving every Sergent upgrades. If you have points after making up a list and have a Sergent sat with a squad in a transport; then you take a power fist.

(Also Nids will be able to close the gap with you)

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Monster Rain
OT is your profile picture Sauron commanding a bunch of storm troopers? lol

Indeed it is! Together at last...

On the subject of ATSKNF and falling back from combat, it's really not a great idea to rely on.

You can easily be escorted off the board, as has been pointed out already. And in 5th Edition there's this "new" thing that Wraithlords and whatnot can do called Running so it's not really crazy to think that they might be able to catch you. Particularly if your Rhinos have been shot out from under you.

And let's not forget the amount of Walkers in drop pods nowadays.

^ True, Combat Tactics is not a no-brainer. Rare to get into a position that it will do well, but it will be a game changer if allowed to work.

i seem to just give my DA Vet sergeants the bare essentials (bolt pistol + chainsword) along with a melta bomb. just in case you know?. my veteran squad vet sergeant though has a meltabomb, a power sword and plasma pistol.

Tri
well 1 or 2 power fists I can see but yeah not to everyone.

You really have to discuss the points level you are playing at. At higher points levels, there is more room to afford bling like PF and PW. At lower points levels, I would rather trade two powerfists for another attack bike or a landspeeder.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Fuegan wrote:Actually every Space Marine CAN use any special weapon. They're trained as scouts to use every weapon in the Space Marine Arsenal, then become Devestators, earn the trust to handle a heavy weapon, move on to Assault MArines if they can handle the role change, move on to tacticals and from there its 1st company.

Oh right. Of course they get the special more "expensive" roles before becoming the basic tac marine. GW messed that up big time. It should be the other way around IMO. You begin as a tactical marine and then specialise.

No.

Assault marines is training to better their close combat skills
devastators are to better their skills with heavy weapons.

Tactical marines are a mixture of the two.

and, actually all three are considered true marines. thats why they're in power armour. [except wolves.]

Being a tactica marine is by far the hardest of the three jobs.

assault marines, your a hacky slashy.
devastators your a shooty pewwy pewwy
Tacs your a hacky pewwy.

Powerfists also have the added bonus of striking at I:1, preventing wound stacking during allocation.

uuuhhhhh.... yes that's a nice aspect of having a power fist.... but I think it's out weighed by the possibility that you wont get to swing at all.... my experience with these things is that they kill 0 or 1 guy on average.

re: the insurance argument. to me this argument is like saying "I need to pay 25-100 points in my list as insurance against my own play mistakes." just dont make the mistake. get in cc with the stuff you're likely to kill or don't get in. with tac marines that basically means dont get in cc. which is too bad bc their shooting is garbage too, but that's another discussion....

also they don't synergize well with combat squads, since the weapon relies on having a good buffer between the carrier and the guys trying to kill him.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:uuuhhhhh.... yes that's a nice aspect of having a power fist.... but I think it's out weighed by the possibility that you wont get to swing at all.... my experience with these things is that they kill 0 or 1 guy on average.

re: the insurance argument. to me this argument is like saying "I need to pay 25-100 points in my list as insurance against my own play mistakes." just dont make the mistake. get in cc with the stuff you're likely to kill or don't get in. with tac marines that basically means dont get in cc. which is too bad bc their shooting is garbage too, but that's another discussion....

also they don't synergize well with combat squads, since the weapon relies on having a good buffer between the carrier and the guys trying to kill him.
AF

Ah, the old "You think that way because you're a bad player" routine...

what can I say...

I can say this:

your saying power fists aren't any good, yet your army lacks any troops.

tis tru!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/302620.page#1811761

and abbadon, I've experienced this : ?Never underestimate any weapon. [well, except for scouts with bolt pistols and CCW.]

Captain
sorry I didnt see your post on that other thread.... umm... I can run my bikes as troops bc of kor'sarro not vulkan. I have 2 squads of troops in the army... I feel that I can get away with it for a couple of reasons... because of the mobility of the bikes for 1 (if you're getting shot at just run away and hide, their mobility is awesome) and bc of target saturation (most people won't shoot a bike when they've got assault terminators command squad and half a dozen land speeders coming at them). If I start losing bc of lack of troops I'll change my build but I'm doing pretty good right now. the fragility of the army and its weakness vs space wolves is much more on my mind than only having 2 troops.

But yeah in msu they're especially horrible.
my reason not to run them is that they're expensive and only really useful in situations where your marines should not be in the 1st place (in cc with a dread for instance) It's not that they can't be good... it's that they're unlikely to be good.
AF

Well, I'd be careful Captain Solon.
The only thing you can fault him for in that army list is listing it VERY poorly.

I am thinking people will assume Khan is on a bike, in which case the bikers are troops.

Though, that list is kinda...meh. I just think the list is a gimmick that his local meta doesn't know how to deal with or doesn't have the resources ($$$) to adapt to for him to have his 'off' comments at times.

One thing you can say is that for someone that doesn't like them, he runs with Thunderhammers.

In addition, his choice for power weapons on the command squad is highly questionable. Hammer I would not call it, even with Furious charge, it is not flexible.
In addition he severly lacks armor saturation for the raider.

Sadly, the advice I'm giving (that I feel is as objective as it can be) will fall on deaf ears.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't think he realizes that Target saturation doesn't work the way he thinks it does.
Say you have a punisher......obviously you will shoot the bikers and not the raider.

Saturation only works with 'like' units across the board...hence the 'armor'saturation of the universal competitive meta.
His saturation is all over the place.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:what can I say...

That you don't know what you're talking about, for starters?

Way to totally ignore any of the points that I made about fast or running MCs and Walkers in Drop Pods. Also, your interpretation of "target saturation" is somewhat misguided.

But since you're unrepentantly using a hack defense of bad advice, I suppose that I should use the classic counter:

Your opponents must be awful at this game.

well monster before I get to your points let me say... I've been nothing but polite to you... that I can recall... so what's up with all the hostility?

anyway...
I didnt address your atsknf comment bc it's unrelated to what I was talking about. I was talking about conducting your shooting and movement phase such that you won't get charged by the few things that you need a power fist to kill; or failing that just chump the squad. squads die. it happens. and it's ok: as long as you hurt them worse than they hurt you you're still ahead.

The other part of your original post said I shouldnt ignore walkers in drop pods. since frankly I had no idea what you were talking about I just passed over it.

you said: your interpretation of "target saturation" is somewhat misguided.
ok.... care to guide me?

anyway try not to get so upset if I say something you dont like. It's ok to just say "I disagree here's why..."
AF

MCs running into combat can be blocked, moved away from, or better yet, shot until dead. Drop pod dreds can be shot or moved away from (as they don't assault when they derp strike).

If you fail to do these things, your tac squad is pretty screwed even if you bring the PF, so why bother?

Better off running and having a chance of fighting another day. The worst thing that happens if you try to run away from a lost combat is you get drawn back into it (which is not desired, but you don't lose much) or: Running off the board, but at least you get to shoot it during your turn.