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Took a look at the diorama and I have to say that it was beautifully done. Really impressive technical work. I have to agree though that the way the guy is holding the breastplate is just way off. It honestly looks like he's inspecting the interior for nipple marks or something. A more casual hold down at his side or even just having it cast off would make more sense. I also have to agree that while I like space elf boobies as much as the next guy having nothing underneath the breastplate is strange. A bodyglove would make sense and it could easily be torn to indicate damage. I'm not really sure about her site line either. I like the defiance but you'd think her attention would be on the guy in the midst of dropping trou, not the guy inspecting her breastplate.

In general the subject doesn't really shock me. I can't really turn off the part of my brain that registers just how horrid the 40K universe is. That when someone decides to exterminatus a planet you're talking about killing hundreds of millions of children, that many times even if you win a fight your own side will put you to death "just to be sure," and the myriad of other horrors that pervade this fictional universe. Frankly a group of guys planning on raping a cornered female combatant seems almost... and I hate to say it, pedestrian for 40K. As far as the horrors of the setting go something like this seems downright mundane in a setting where entire planets are cleansed of all life on one megalomanics orders. It's the IG, so in this diorama worst case is raped and then killed, if it was someone like the Dark Eldar or any Slaneesh worshipers that would then become the best possible ending. So in the grand scheme of things while what's being depicted is a horrid act compared to what the background material glosses over this is... meh.

I guess I'll throw my two cents in as well. As said by all, the P & M is outstanding. As for the subject matter...Grim, Dark Future, yeah.. there's some rape in that mix. It's not all bolters and statuatory but it's in there. Sorry folks, the setting of 40k is dark and brutal. Slaanesh marines/KoC/deamons/marauders they all rape. Personally I like that you've pushed the envelope on this one. (**That doesn't mean I'm pro-rape, Trollers**) I understand immature ones won't like it or get it, for that matter, but this stuff happens all the time in practically every single war that has or is taking place on Earth. So why wouldn't it happen in the distant future. The best criticism I've seen on here is about the guardsmen being trained and bred to hate the alien and would despise this act, but guardsmen are human and succumb to Chaos(where do you think all those renegades come from).
I haven't seen this much pointless backlash since someone put a Dark Elf smoking a bong on CMoN.

The setting, painting and modeling are all top notch on this diorama. Most dioramas don't tell more of a story than guy X is attacking guy Y because they're enemies. Excellent work.

And btw Slaanesh demands more boobs for the boob god

That is not rape! He's just "inspecting the breastplate" and the others or making sure the xenos doesn't run and report their postion to her comrades.

camboyaz wrote:That is not rape! He's just "inspecting the breastplate" and the others or making sure the xenos doesn't run and report their postion to her comrades.

And that one guy is going to show her human anatomy bellow the belt.

Actually, he's putting his pants back on because the ambivalent dude has warned him that a Commissar is heading their way. Or maybe he just took a leak.

The great thing about dioramas is that they capture one moment and leave every moment before an after up to your imagination.

That would be great, add a commisar sneaking up behind them.

This would happen in the 41st millenium for sure, pushed to the limits every day, sent on suicide missions by incompetent commanders, no escape from military service apart from death, not surprised. Has there been a joke about a successful penetration roll? There has now.....

Alright, lets give non-gamers more ammunation to bad mouth gaming!

Really? Someone made a scene of some IG about to go town on another Model? REALLY?

Perkustin wrote:This would happen in the 41st millenium for sure, pushed to the limits every day, sent on suicide missions by incompetent commanders, no escape from military service apart from death, not surprised. Has there been a joke about a successful penetration roll? There has now.....

Yeah but he doesn't have rending.....

Well it would seem we have made it to the circle-jerk portion of the thread, with people saying anyone who doesn't like it doesn't grasp the truth of war, and others cracking rape/dice-jokes.

Frazzled wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:So genocide is fine for subject material, but rape isnt?

Also, rape is a sexual act Howard. It's not consensual, but you can't act like it doesn't involve sexuality. It's not even necessarily violent.

I'm sorry, when was the last time there was a diorama on genocide again?

Well, I can't say it was the last one, but Zbigniew Libera's LEGO Concentration Camp was designed in 1996. I saw it at the Armory show in New York in 2002, but it was contemporaneously shown at the Jewish Museum in New York.


The above quote though, does serve to encapsulate the biggest problem this discussion faces: Dakka is fine for evaluating the quality of model painting, construction and conversion; things related to modeling and the hobby. It's a really bad place for discussion of art as art, because a) people here simply don't have much serious interested or knowledge about art, and b) most importantly, it's simply not geared to it. Dakka is a TTG site, and it doesn't have pretensions to much more then that.

Asking the opinion of posters on Dakka, or CMON for that matter, is going to give you a very mixed bag of useful and very much less then useful criticism: when Zbigniew Libera made his LEGO concentration Camp, he didn't exhibit it to LEGO fans, he exhibited it at art exhibitions.

Unfortunately Nakatan I see you're in Russia, so I can't direct you to any resources, but you would be well served to try and find more political art exhibitions, even perhaps art festivals produced by groups devoted to combating rape, domestic violence or other crimes against women. It doubtlessly won't be easy going, but I think you would be pleasantly surprised by the response you might receive at such venues.

_________

Having gotten that out of the way, back to the stuff Dakka is good at: asking "How did you do it?!"

Seriously, the level of detail, especially on the faces is mind boggling considering the size. Do you have any resources that could lend insight to your technique?

I'm not sure why genocide/killing and rape are being compared here. Warhammer 40k is a fantasy wargame. Fantasy killing, or genocide if you insist on it. It's beside the fact that rape occurrs in current and past wars; must we bring it into a wargame fantasy? If you're fantasizing rape, then maybe you should consider another game.

Lt. Coldfire wrote:I'm not sure why genocide/killing and rape are being compared here. Warhammer 40k is a fantasy wargame. Fantasy killing, or genocide if you insist on it. It's beside the fact that rape occurrs in current and past wars; must we bring it into a wargame fantasy? If you're fantasizing rape, then maybe you should consider another game.

Buzzsaw wrote:The above quote though, does serve to encapsulate the biggest problem this discussion faces: Dakka is fine for evaluating the quality of model painting, construction and conversion; things related to modeling and the hobby. It's a really bad place for discussion of art as art, because a) people here simply don't have much serious interested or knowledge about art, and b) most importantly, it's simply not geared to it. Dakka is a TTG site, and it doesn't have pretensions to much more then that.

Asking the opinion of posters on Dakka, or CMON for that matter, is going to give you a very mixed bag of useful and very much less then useful criticism: when Zbigniew Libera made his LEGO concentration Camp, he didn't exhibit it to LEGO fans, he exhibited it at art exhibitions.

Also;

Manchu wrote:OP makes a good point: calling him a perverted monster or any variation of this is a violation of Rule Number One. Mannahnin is right to praise the general tone of this thread for focusing on the piece rather than speculative insults directed at the hobbyist. Let's keep it that way. Thanks!

Moltar wrote:Personally I like that you've pushed the envelope on this one. (**That doesn't mean I'm pro-rape, Trollers**)

You'd know all about trolling wouldn't you? Your entire post might as well have "BAIT!" written on it in big, glowing, neon letters with fireworks going off in the fething background.

Or is basically coming out and saying "Everyone who disagrees with me is immature and/or stupid" allowed now?




I need to take a break from Dakka. I'm already to the point where I get banned if I do one more thing wrong, and people post stupid bs like this and practically beg me to flip my gak.

Thank you Sid, I'm in agreement with you. I read that post and thought "exactly who said anyone here was pro-rape?" I"m not sure why this type of passive-aggressive posting is permitted.

Saying that "immature ones won't like it or get it" is not the same as saying "anyone who doesn't like or get it is immature". All Collies are dogs but not all dogs are Collies, and all that.

I'm letting all three of your posts stand. Sid calling the first post "stupid BS" and "trolling" appears to be a kneejerk reaction based on misunderstanding it, but I'm cutting him some slack, as it appears to be an honest mistake.

Accolade, there was at least one post in these discussions suggesting or outright stating that the diorama promotes rape. I am not sure how someone could think that, but they evidently did, and posted such.

Once again, everyone please remember to be respectful toward other posters.

I like it. The man remvoing his pants may be about to lose something very important...

Just had a look at the Diorama, and went through the entire thread here at DakkaDakka, and I have to say; What's actually all the fuzz about? Here we have a bunch of guardsmen who've "captured" a female Eldar, and one of them is going to give her "The Emperor's Justice", failing to notice that she's trying to get towards the knife that is half burried in the mud less then a foot away from her. In other words, those Guardsmen are about to feel the fury of a Xeno.

Secondly, seriously.. because of some half-nudity and the "obvious" -note the aphostrophes- attempt at rape some here suggest, people had to discuss it over 6 pages with "It's demeaning!" or "I love it!" and thus started a flame war.. Brilliant.

Now, let me give you chaps and chapettes out there something to think about; the diorama is merely focusing on the grim, dark side of war, and as one can clearly see, these guardsmen are about to die. I do believe that the creator, Nakatan, simply wanted to point out the worst of the worst in the year 40.000 -seriously, there is much worse horsedung on the TV and in books then this little piece of diorama.

So, to sum it all up. Great diorama, very well executed paintjob, and a theme that offends less then some new art, controversial stuff I've seen in art exhibitions.. Kudos, Nakatan. you deserve it.

Sidstyler wrote:

Moltar wrote:Personally I like that you've pushed the envelope on this one. (**That doesn't mean I'm pro-rape, Trollers**)

You'd know all about trolling wouldn't you? Your entire post might as well have "BAIT!" written on it in big, glowing, neon letters with fireworks going off in the fething background.

Or is basically coming out and saying "Everyone who disagrees with me is immature and/or stupid" allowed now?

sid, I'm sorry if that is how you read my post. I'm certainly not at all trying to get people worked up over this and in no way was this a personal shot at you or anyone else. My point was simply that those who have blatantly called out the artist with no constructive criticism are just saying I don't like it because I want to pretend that bad things don't happen or they don't want to see it In "their" fantasy setting and that is not a valid reason IMHO to disregard the artistic skill involved in this diorama. I wouldn't know a thing about trolling. Lurking? Sure I've mastered that. But this is absolutely the only post I've called people out on and for what? Not providing good/adequate C & Cs? I'm to old to spend my time online pissing people off. I'm sorry that I offended you by liking something I found to be an edgy, different take on what we're used to. I certainly don't think that someone is wrong or immature just because they don't agree with me, but I think that if anyone is going to spend the time to tell the artist they don't like a piece of his work then they should be able to thoroughly express a valid reason for why they don't like it or give constructive criticism on how to improve it.
On that note, I'm unsubscribing from this thread tomorrow as I can already tell that voicing my opinion may have been a bad idea on this thread.
I apologize that anything I would post would garnish such backlash on dakka, that was never my intent. I thought there was a slight hint of humor in my original post that could lighten the mood here. Clearly I was wrong and apologize to the dakkites.

I do believe that the creator, Nakatan, simply wanted to point out the worst of the worst in the year 40.000

Fair enough. Now what I want to know is why did it need to be pointed out?

If someone could just give me a good reason why this was a point that needed to be made I won't post about the diorama again.

And while you're at it, please explain the Lego concentration camp. Why did that need to be made?

On the pages before, someone pointed out that it might be the disbalance of power in this diorama that creates so many negative reactions, and I guess I'd agree on that. Second factor is probably and as already pointed out the closeness to reality.

For starters, this diorama is good in a way as it made me ponder the morality of Warhammer 40,000, like it happened to many other people here, I believe. We have don't object to millions dieing, but a case of possible rape repulses us? Where does this come from? And I guess it's about the disbalance of power, at least partially, connected with our sense of right and wrong, good and evil. . Consider the following scenes:

1. A Space Marine fighting a Chaos Space Marine, a moment frozen in time where none of them has the advantage.
This is a basic Wh40k scene. I'm quite sure nobody here is repulsed by it, really. However, the CSM is basically a psychopath fuelled by wrath, anger, hate and the pure lust in making other beings suffer - and he's obviously trying to do exactly that. Evil guy tries to harm good guy. (And let's assume that speciecist hardline warrior monks are the good guys here for the sake of the example.) However, we are not repulsed by it because we know the opponents in this battle are of roughly equal power. It's a classical struggle with angry warriors clashing swords and trying to overcome their adversary. Example is very far from reality, supersoldiers all the way.

2. A Space Marine chopping a cultists head off / a Vindicare assassin one-shotting an ork boy with his pistol at close distance. Brains flying around.
I would hazard that scenes like this generallly find the approval of the 40k community. The good guys, humanity, overcome and destroy their evil enemies. However, there's a serious power disbalance in both scenes, as we all can agree that cultists and basic ork boyz are no match for Marines or assassins. In this case most people will be okay with it though, because the good guys win. Anyone disagree? Sidenote: These scenes are very far from reality - aliens and supersoldiers. However, let's proceed to the next one:

3. A Khorne Berzerker rampaging through a squad of conscripts, disembowelled bodies in a wake behind him.
What do we have here? The power disbalance is obvious, even for someone who doesn't know the genre. In this way, it's like example 2. However, in this case, the evil murderer, the bloodthirsty sociopath who gains pleasure from taking the lives of innocent people, is the winner. Sounds like this scene is actually something repulsing, isn't it? However, let me again hazard that still quite a lot of people will be ok with this, probably for one reason: It's quite far away from reality, still. While the victims are humans, the foe is so over the top grimdark that it's easy to distance oneself from the scene.

4. A group of six men standing in a circle around a bloodied and beaten man, lying on the floor, trying to protect himself. The six men have iron pipes or bloodied knuckles.
Allright. Serious power disbalance here again, it's clear who the bad guys are and it's clear that the victim stands no chance. This resembles example 3, but with an important difference: This looks very real. Stuff like this could happen just a few blocks away from where you live. There are no grimdark warp gods, superhumans or violent green guys with cockney accents involved. And because of this, because one can so easily imagine this happening in real life, I'd guess many people would frown upon such a diorama. It's a helpless victim being attacked by a stronger evil that is getting its way with the victim, in a very real-life situation. I imagine this to be the non-sexual counterpart to the diorama discussed in this thread.

Anyone agree? Yes, no, maybe?

As a concluding example, let's think about this:
What if the author of Alien Contact would've depicted Slaaneshi daemons about to rape an ork boy? My estimate would be: You would still get voices saying "This is about rape, this is a topic not suitable for a children's game like 40k", but they would be far less frequent. By using aliens and daemons for the scene, the topic is distanced from reality and loses some of its repulsing effect. I guess there'd be at least some people with posts like "HAHA, look at that orks face, he knows he's in trouble!", taking the scene with the usual 40k tongue-in-cheek, something that does not happen with the Alien Contact diorama.

Be advised that I'm not taking sides right now and that I'm not saying anyone is wrong with their opinion. I'm just trying to explain reactions.

So, why did I write all this? I don't really know, I guess I like to think about things. Summarizing, I just tried to analyze what exactly made people be disgusted and repulsed by a diorama like this, when they are used to the 40k setting of blood, violence, hate and genocide. Disbalance of power, evil winning over good and the closeness to reality are my theses. What's your opinion?

Long and the short of it is, this diorama is brilliant, not just because it is well modelled. More over, it is not good art as such, it is more realistically reflecting the brutality and the horror of war in a hobby that attempts to glorify war and all it entails. Something that is wrong in itself. This is fantastic because it is so down to earth and realistic. No matter how shocking or wrong someone finds rape, because they don't like it doesn't mean it won't happen.

The key part to it however is that it is the Guardsmen that are raping her. The imperial guard are portrayed by GW as the "good guys" in their overall glorification. It helps to remind us that all are guilty in wartime. No matter what side you are on. Just as the allies were guilty of atrocity's (not quite on the same scale as the holocaust, granted, but some allied soldiers will have raped as they advanced toward Berlin)in the 2nd world war, they were overlooked however due to the fact history is written by the victor (and for the life of me I cannot remember who said that).

Imp. Monkey


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On a side note Witzkatz puts this bloody well actually, in a long winded way

I don't think GW glorifies war at all. If you really wanna argue that then anything war-related "glorifies" it apparently. Call of Duty games and damn near every FPS ever made for that matter, all tabletop wargames, etc.

Or you could stop taking gak so seriously, realize it's a game, and just play. If it really bothers you that much, if you really think it's "wrong", then why are you playing 40k at all?

Follow it up with another diorama of the guardsmen about to be hung by a commisar for their impure acts.It 'll give people a chance to moan more, or to see them get their just desserts.

I don't think its wrong, its fun and is just a game. It does however glorify war. It talks about millions dying and brushes it off as a fact. That is glorification. It is taking war and trivialising it, giving the idea that one beings life is worthless.

I don't take it too seriously and i play for enjoyment. But you have to keep things in reasonable perspective.


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OH and no, not everything war related trivialises it. That's the whole idea of films and books, they create the scene of war that should be shown. They demonstrate to people that would otherwise never see war as it is truly is. That it is not something to be glorified, but is just killing.

I think the scene was well painted.

I also think the represented content was rendered into cheap titillation for adolescents instead of the real horror of gang rape.

I also think it has no place as a tabletop representation of a fantastical wargame.

What next for the artist? The atrocities of Nanking visually represented by Tau on Imperial citizenry?

The subject matter is not one for trivialisation via the medium of pulp sci-fi and the diorama is in poor taste.

You could have set it up with transformer toys or Barbie being raped by Buzz Lightyear and Woody and you'd have only marginally increased the trivialisation of the subject matter more.

Imperial Monkey wrote:I don't think its wrong, its fun and is just a game. It does however glorify war. It talks about millions dying and brushes it off as a fact. That is glorification. It is taking war and trivialising it, giving the idea that one beings life is worthless.

No, you very clearly said that the hobby attempted to glorify war, and that it was wrong. And now you're saying it's not wrong, 40k is just a game and it's meant to be fun, etc.

Sidstyler wrote:If someone could just give me a good reason why this was a point that needed to be made I won't post about the diorama again.

And while you're at it, please explain the Lego concentration camp. Why did that need to be made?

You could ask the same question of not just every diorama that has ever been made, but every piece of art that has ever been made, and you will likely never get a satisfactory answer.

No, I said that the hobby glorifies war, and that aspect is wrong. I will admit that "attempts" was not the right word to use, my mistake. But i play the game for enjoyment and even though it glorifys war, which it does through the background, I still play because looking at it overall it is a harmless game for we nerds to enjoy. Probably the glorification that comes into it is not intended, but that is what happens.

The 40k fluff definitely glorifies war. I'd think it would be beyond dispute.