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**Mannahnin**

JOHIRA wrote:A couple of points:
1) It's absolutely fine (and in fact, healthy IMHO) that some people don't care for this diorama (though I think it's fantastic). But surely we should all be able to agree that launching personal attacks at Nakatan for it is inappropriate.

2) I don't think it's fair to call this scene GRIMDARK. GRIMDARK is a sarcastic description of the over-the-top-ness of 40K. When whole worlds get virus-bombed just to stamp out a cult or Khorne berzerkers spend 20,000 years in the warp practicing killing, it takes things into unrelatable territory. What makes GRIMDARK GRIMDARK isn't that it's uncomfortable or painful or scary- it's that it's enormous in scope and teaspoon-shallow in depth. 40K takes place on a scale that is vast and impersonal and in doing so loses most of it's relatability. There aren't real people in 40K, just larger-than-life heroes and villains who can apparently wade through an inferno unharmed as long as they shout and point and hold their swords over their heads while they walk. And that GRIMDARKness exists so that the people playing with toy soldiers don't have to stop and think about the morality of their characters. Everything is too big and abstract for most people to really feel like it matters. Hence, GRIMDARK.

Nakatan's piece doesn't have any of that. It has real human feeling. These characters have been a part of the human experience for as long as we've been around. It's not larger-than-life. And I would wager that a lot of the objection people have toward it is that it makes them confront uncomfortable feelings they'd rather not imagine. Maybe that's why we've had so many people protest that real Imperial Guardsmen would never have such close contact with an alien. If people can have that kind of emotional reaction to Nakatan's diorama, then it definitely is not GRIMDARK. You may not like it, and that's okay. But give it the credit it's due.

One of the best posts in the thread. I lthink pieces like this are worth doing occasionally, and I argely like the piece, though I think the execution of the Eldar figure is significantly flawed and lets it down. But Johira aptly summarizes, IMO, why a lot of people find it offputting without being hypocritical.

**winnertakesall**

AndrewC wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Its on the Showcase forum.

Frazzled, you missed the point.

We can and should comment on his ability to paint and model figures. We should not make judgement on what it depicts.

So if I were to create and model a diarama of the population of Armageddon being led into work/concentration camps it would be acceptable?

Cheers

Andrew

Oh Snap!

I do think there has been a massive over-reaction about this, and the whole thing has descended into a flame war.

**Frazzled**

AndrewC wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Its on the Showcase forum.

Frazzled, you missed the point.

We can and should comment on his ability to paint and model figures. We should not make judgement on what it depicts.

So if I were to create and model a diarama of the population of Armageddon being led into work/concentration camps it would be acceptable?

Cheers

Andrew

respectfully, bs.

**Mannahnin**

I do think there has been a massive over-reaction about this, and the whole thing has descended into a flame war.

No it hasn't. That's the cool thing. Opinions are divided, and a few feathers have been ruffled, but 95%+ of the comments have been considered, and I have seen very few flames.

Overall, good job guys. Keep it up.

**Frazzled**

Mannahnin wrote:
I do think there has been a massive over-reaction about this, and the whole thing has descended into a flame war.

No it hasn't. That's the cool thing. Opinions are divided, and a few feathers have been ruffled, but 95%+ of the comments have been considered, and I have seen very few flames.

Overall, good job guys. Keep it up.

Except that Frazzled guy. He's kind of a meanie.

**Lt. Coldfire**

Absolutely glorious paintjob. Not a big fan of the Codex: Rape part of it though.

**Manchu**

AndrewC wrote:So if I were to create and model a diarama of the population of Armageddon being led into work/concentration camps it would be acceptable?

I think this is a great idea for a diorama. And it's a great contribution to this discussion. In that story, the Space Wolves stand in for IRL rage over the grimdark (which as a term is not actually just a comment about how OTT 40k is). There has been significant discussion in this thread about the allegedly ambivalent guardsmen and about the idea of a commissar coming along to punish these guardsmen (for various reasons). Maybe, unlike the SW at Armageddon, the narrative that this diorama tells doesn't give us enough of a in-story pressure release (we just have that knife and the reputation of Eldar reflexes) for our feelings of revulsion and general uncomfortablility with the possibilities. But in my opinion that makes the piece all the more effective.

**Monster Rain**

Couldn't agree more, Manchu.

I would put even odds that the Psyker alien chick within easy reach of a knife will be able to make a move. Especially considering she only has one BS3 Flashlight to "intimidate" her.

**MajorTom11**

Frazz, jeeze man as a Mod shouldn't you be encouraging measured and reasonable debate, and, no matter what your personal opinion, still be open to the idea that others may feel subjectively differently without being 'wrong'?

**Mannahnin**

I think the idea Aurelia had, about possibly having two of the guardsmen arguing, could have been cool too. Maybe still have one of them have his pants unbuckled.

Is there a badge or medal for IG to earn for Xenos Hate or Purity in general? Something from the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, mayhap? It'd be cool if the guy arguing had a symbol like that on him, perhaps to give the implication that maybe the reason he's arguing is not out of mercy, but out of concern for contamination by The Alien. That'd be really 40k.

**Frazzled**

Lt. Coldfire wrote:Absolutely glorious paintjob. Not a big fan of the Codex: Rape part of it though.

Exactly.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MajorTom11 wrote:Frazz, jeeze man as a Mod shouldn't you be encouraging measured and reasonable debate, and, no matter what your personal opinion, still be open to the idea that others may feel subjectively differently without being 'wrong'?

I am not saying they can't feel differently, indeed thats partly why I am ranting. Thats NOT being extended to those who disagree with the efficacy of this work.

**Nakatan**

Elmodiddly wrote:
Nakatan wrote:
Elmodiddly wrote:Whilst the diorama is very well done ineed and there has been some restraint shown which was good to see as the scene depicted could be a few different translations, the most shocking bit of the whole thing is

WARNING! SHOCKING CONTENT! 18+ Absolutely NO minors and hypocrites!

You're posting an item which you label as 18+ only, which you say is about rape, on a website where there are children present in abundance. Knowing full well that you have put an adult themed photo on an open website which is frequented by children is pretty disgusting IMO.

coolmini is an adult site. it is what its adminisration says and it is present in the registration form. If somebody`s children go to site where boobs and gore all around, well, i can do nothing about this. and i didn`t remember to call you a hypocrite. But certainly, some of them labeled me as perverted monster already.

**Manchu**

OP makes a good point: calling him a perverted monster or any variation of this is a violation of Rule Number One. Mannahnin is right to praise the general tone of this thread for focusing on the piece rather than speculative insults directed at the hobbyist. Let's keep it that way. Thanks!

**Elmodiddly**

AndrewC wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Its on the Showcase forum.

Frazzled, you missed the point.

We can and should comment on his ability to paint and model figures. We should not make judgement on what it depicts.

Cheers

Andrew

Yes, you can. And should. There are two options to vote for in the galleries section. One is of the paintjob and the other vote buton is the coolness of the subject.

winnertakesall wrote:FLAME WARS!

Straying a bit from the original subject here, but it clearly says no under 18's, same thing with pornagraphic websites (not that I would know **cough**)
If you are under 18, dont press it, same thing thing with pornagrapic websites, both he and them have fordilled their obligation to warn any people that
stray onto there that the following pages contain elicit pictures.

You do not give up any responsibility by saying do not press if under 18. To think so is pure folly. Why not leave your car door open with the keys in but a sign saying do not drive this car if banned or underage or does not belong to you? Or a bottle of alcohol with a similar sign.

You put the temptation up so therefore it IS your responsibility to consider the audience. That is why we have the fething (fired for effect) swear filter on these fething forums; to protect the kids!!

**Mannahnin**

Agreed. And that being said, Elmodiddly and Johira also have made excellent points that people may have reasonable and legitimate objections to this piece without being hypocrites. It is important for everyone to be respectful and recognize the validity of others varying tastes and opinions.

**Manchu**

@Elmodiddly: Please take that discussion (of responsibility to minors regarding websites) to another thread, probably in OT.

**Hangfire**

Nakatan that Eldar armour is beautifully painted, mind if I ask what colour you basecoated it and did you highlight to pure white?

Are you sure that guard guy isn't just proving to his mates that weight-watchers works and he's can now use an extra notch on his belt buckle. Meanwhile the other kindly IG holding the breastplate is saying "Hang on love I'll have that fixed in a jiffy."

**Manchu**

And her face = "mon'keigh craftsmanship is an oxymoron!"

**Lycaeus Wrex**

JOHIRA wrote:A couple of points:
1) It's absolutely fine (and in fact, healthy IMHO) that some people don't care for this diorama (though I think it's fantastic). But surely we should all be able to agree that launching personal attacks at Nakatan for it is inappropriate.

2) I don't think it's fair to call this scene GRIMDARK. GRIMDARK is a sarcastic description of the over-the-top-ness of 40K. When whole worlds get virus-bombed just to stamp out a cult or Khorne berzerkers spend 20,000 years in the warp practicing killing, it takes things into unrelatable territory. What makes GRIMDARK GRIMDARK isn't that it's uncomfortable or painful or scary- it's that it's enormous in scope and teaspoon-shallow in depth. 40K takes place on a scale that is vast and impersonal and in doing so loses most of it's relatability. There aren't real people in 40K, just larger-than-life heroes and villains who can apparently wade through an inferno unharmed as long as they shout and point and hold their swords over their heads while they walk. And that GRIMDARKness exists so that the people playing with toy soldiers don't have to stop and think about the morality of their characters. Everything is too big and abstract for most people to really feel like it matters. Hence, GRIMDARK.

Nakatan's piece doesn't have any of that. It has real human feeling. These characters have been a part of the human experience for as long as we've been around. It's not larger-than-life. And I would wager that a lot of the objection people have toward it is that it makes them confront uncomfortable feelings they'd rather not imagine. Maybe that's why we've had so many people protest that real Imperial Guardsmen would never have such close contact with an alien. If people can have that kind of emotional reaction to Nakatan's diorama, then it definitely is not GRIMDARK. You may not like it, and that's okay. But give it the credit it's due.

Wonderfully put sir.

L. Wrex

ADDENDUM: With regards the poster who mentioned the Armeggedon concentration camps/sweat factories. That again would be an excellent portrayal of something that occurs regularly in our current society, transposed into a reality where infinitely more horrible situations occur. I think that a lot of people are scared nay, terrified, to impart even a small amount of humanity and accountability into a universe that they are quite happy viewing as 'above' such restrictions. The very fact that this piece has garnered over 18 pages of russian and 5 pages of our own debate, as well as being banned for being 'too risque' speaks volumes as to the controversy such a taboo topic will inevitably cause.

I don't want to point fingers and name names, but people need to realise that this stuff *does happen* and rather than sweep it under the rug and degrade the creator, we should instead be embracing this kind of work as it shows that you don't need to put paint to canvas in order to convey an emotional response in the observer which, if I'm not wrong, is what all good art should be trying to do.

L. Wrex

**Grakmar**

When I first saw this, I was a little sickened. Not shocked (this is the internet, we've all seen much worse), but I assumed this was the artist's weird fetish.

After contemplating this piece and reading the multiple threads about it, I have to change my opinion.

This truly is a wonderful piece of art. It's gross, and disgusting, and disturbing. It has no place as part of the supported 40k game.

But, none of that detracts from the fact that it challenges the viewer to evaluate their social mores. It has spawned multiple debates about the acceptability of rape vs murder in 40k and in fiction in general. It may disgust the viewer, but that's part of it's intention. It wants to get you thinking and talking about the exact things we're all discussing here.

The craftsmanship of this piece was also top-notch! Well done!

Overall, this is one of the most beautiful pieces I've seen, and it's definitely the most "artistic".

+1 to the artist.

**AndrewC**

Elmodiddly wrote:Yes, you can. And should. There are two options to vote for in the galleries section. One is of the paintjob and the other vote buton is the coolness of the subject.

But that is not what people are doing. They are taking it one step further than the coolness factor.

@Manchu, if only I had the skill and ability.

@Frazzled, if you read my earlier posts I agree with you, the subject matter is not one I approve of, but I don't like some of the insinuations made about the sculptor. Grakmar made the statement that this has no place in 40K, but in it's own admission 40K is about ethnic cleansing, absolute power over others, the Inquisition, the degredation and bondage of women within its' society, genocide, slavery, xenophobia and the absolute idea of might makes right.

None of these are right, what makes any of them any more fitting, more palatable, than the implied rape in this piece?

Andrew

**Timonth**

Very great diorama! They might have taken the darkness of the situation back a bit if there were some Eldar scouts behind the wreck of the Eldar vehicle ready to pop out and save her, or at least something like that

**Joyous_Oblivion**

I did not read through the pages of replies, but I'll say that is a well executed piece of art. The expressions and body language of everyone involved is quite amazing.

I'm not sure why her breasts are exposed...maybe Eldar armour works like that...

Very well done, just not sure of the 'breast factor' though...

**JOHIRA**

AndrewC wrote:We can and should comment on his ability to paint and model figures. We should not make judgement on what it depicts.

I partly agree, but only partly. Useful criticism is criticism that teaches the artist to do their work better. An artist who wants to improve needs to have an open mind about their own technique, but they also need to understand how people react to their work. It can be extremely stinging to hear that someone rejects the entire premise of your work- that happened a few times to me in my art classes back in college. But even if as an artist you reject their criticism (and if you have a strong sense of what you want to produce, I think you probably should), there is some value in hearing it. It lets you know how your audience thinks.

Now obviously this can be taken too far. If I go into a thread where someone has posted their latest space marine and say, "Nah man, you should have painted an Eldar instead," then I'm being kind of a

. But I don't think things have gotten quite to that point in this thread.

**Xanadu**

The faces are really well dome on the guardsman, and I agree not everything in war is all bullets and explosions.

**poontangler**

Oh come on, look at what that Eldar is wearing, she is practically asking for it!

**jamessearle0**

i personally think its a great diorama, i read all the discussions above, and all i really thought was.. noone was raped to create this peice so why are a few people geting upset.

**Lars**

The faces and eyes are extremely believable. Well done!

**Malika2**

Finally! War with sexual violence in it! Sexual violence (rape, abuse, intimidation, etc) has always been present in war, soldiers raping their prisoners as a means of humiliating them or rape being used as a weapon against the local population, what about the whole custom of prima nocte? Cool to see this nasty element of war present in the 40k universe now!

**Grakmar**

Malika2 wrote:what about the whole custom of prima nocte?

Just thought I should point out that this is from a movie, and has little to no actual evidence it ever occurred in real life.